The gear gap is larger than it has even been. Why all the complaints about LFR gear?

[Neforpubl]

I hate to be the one to nitpick, but how on earth could you get 261 ilvl in WotLK without raiding? The absolute maximum I believe you could get without raiding was 251 emblem of frost gear, which would take a very long time to grind with only the daily heroic. Aside from that you only had 232 emblem and dungeon gear.

Edit: apparently I misremembered, triumph gear was 245 and frost gear was 264, aside from the sets which were lower. I still don't think it was reasonable for a non-raider to grind enough emblems to max out on that gear though.

Psh what private server did you play on? I don't remember even knowing what a item level was in wrath.
6k GS OR GTFO NOOB

[scarson]

Which part of RPG do you fail to understand?

RPG = progression. Progression is different for everyone. Some progress through hardcore raiding, others through LFR or PvP.

What do you suggest non-raiders do, then? Pet battles? Quit?

RPG does not equal progression. RPG is role playing.

How is getting free purples by logging in is RPG? Care to explain?

What does all this "entitlement" because you pay $15 have to do with RPG?

How is teleporting with 24 random people to the dungeon by clicking on interface button, but not traveling there through the world, is RPG?

How is killing strong foes while frolicking or AFKing in LFR fits in with the spirit of RPG?

If it is about "progression", why the free gear?

Don't you understand when you get free purplez through no effort, there is NO PROGRESSION. You did NOT progress. You clicked a button and got your purplez.

You have no idea what role playing games feel like. Don't ever use RPG for your fail attempts to justify your free gear ride!

Game is there to play, available to all subscribers. You can play and enjoy, you can role-play, you can progress. If you do not want to do those things, why are you in the game in the first place?

[Grogo]

Which part of RPG do you fail to understand?

RPG = progression. Progression is different for everyone. Some progress through hardcore raiding, others through LFR or PvP.

What do you suggest non-raiders do, then? Pet battles? Quit?

Do whatever. At least have some self respect, you will not get it from LFR. I do hear what you are saying though, Blizzard is not offering you a good alternative and they should be.

[Raelbo]

you want LFR thats fine with me and I support it but what gets my tits in a twist is that you have to do "F" all to get the same gear as flex/normal/hc only with with less stats,

The whole point the OP is making that those stats translate to a performance reduction of between 30-60%. So no, it's not "the same gear as Flex/Normal/Hc". It's very much inferior that only looks similar.

And while I understand how nice it would be for the 1% of heroic raiders to land up with a totally unique set of gear instead of a different colour, it is not hard to understand why this is not done. It just isn't warranted to spend the resources and work required to create all that extra gear for such a small portion of the playerbase. It is far more sensible to make one set of gear models per class/role than 2 or 3 or 4 unique sets. In practical terms it means more content for everyone.

[Televators]

Bad players complain about not getting to have/see the same things as great players, so Blizzard gives into them and hands them free shit without having to do any work.

I raided in through WotLK and don't have the time or desire to raid now. You can keep all of the gear, but to suggest I'm bad because Blizzard wants to make more money? Suck my balls.

[zephid]

I don't see how the gear isn't deserved. When I used to raid I logged in, spent hours doing raid bosses, got gear. Not I log in, spend hours doing raid bosses, get gear. The bosses maybe be easier but the situation required to obtain gear is even more of a pain in the ass most of the time.

The difference is that in LFR you can pretty much afk the entire time and still get the gear.

[Normie]

Ive seen many times in this thread and others stating that they deserve the gear because they pay the same amount a month as anyone else.

There is a few things wrong with that statement and they don't get it and probably never will.

1) What they are saying is that they support a) pay to win or b) a sort of welfare system with gear

2) They do not realize that some things in life are not handed to you because you're you

3) it screams entitlement

4) It goes against basic human nature

5) You have access to the content not a fucking coupon where you just hand it in for free shit

Is this what politics is like in the mind of a sixteen year old gamer with hardcore tunnel vision? The same talking points endlessly repeated: "deserve the gear", "pay the same amount a month", "pay to win", "welfare system", "handed to you", "entitlement"?

And anger. Always with anger.

FOX got nothing on you.

[Raelbo]

I do hear what you are saying though, Blizzard is not offering you a good alternative and they should be.

I don't believe that is what Sharein was saying at all. The point made was: LFR = progression, end game content for some players. Don't try and break it by removing the gear.

[Repefe]

the gear is not the problem. The problem is that the gear is given for free, and they still get to see content

they don't deserve gear, they don't deserve to see end game content

Problem is without gear the content is worthless. If it was more fun to raid, we wouldn't need gear.

[Grogo]

Is this what politics is like in the mind of a sixteen year old gamer with hardcore tunnel vision? The same talking points endlessly repeated: "deserve the gear", "pay the same amount a month", "pay to win", "welfare system", "handed to you", "entitlement"?

And anger. Always with anger.

FOX got nothing on you.

Because the opinion does not match yours I am of course a 16 year old. Good one, that is new. It's harsh but it is the root of the issue, not my problem you are do not see it, it's yours. No, I think my statement was pretty spot on, you may as well posted " U mad bro?". Well actually, you sort of did, way to express yourself.

[Deleted]

Why? Do you pay more for the game than them?

It's nice you have all the free time in the world to dedicate to the game.

But others out there have a busy schedule that would like to play this FULL game.
So they should just run the boring dungeons and dailies forever?

The gear is hardly free. All I see is raiders complaining that LFR is a wipe fest and frustrating.
It seems to me people that put up with that nonsense earned the gear more than you did.

As someone said, the monthly fee you pay is for the access to the game servers....Because you pay the same amount like everyone else doesn't mean that you have the right to play the full game. It's like you are going to see a movie in the cinema. Everyone pays the same fee for the ticket, but those who sit at the center of the auditorium have better pov from those who sit at the edges.....

[Orange Joe]

Do whatever. At least have some self respect, you will not get it from LFR. I do hear what you are saying though, Blizzard is not offering you a good alternative and they should be.

You do know you are talking about a video game here.......

[Repefe]

As someone said, the monthly fee you pay is for the access to the game servers....Because you pay the same amount like everyone else doesn't mean that you have the right to play the full game. It's like you are going to see a movie in the cinema. Everyone pays the same fee for the ticket, but those who sit at the center of the auditorium have better pov from those who sit at the edges.....

Thing is without raiding WoW subscription is like a movie ticket for a seat outside of the showing room. Nothing to see there ...

[Fatpob]

As someone said, the monthly fee you pay is for the access to the game servers....Because you pay the same amount like everyone else doesn't mean that you have the right to play the full game. .....

Actually it does mean you have the right to play the full game.

Play is a range of voluntary, intrinsically motivated activities normally associated with recreational pleasure and enjoyment.

[Raelbo]

RPG does not equal progression. RPG is role playing.

In terms of computer games, RPG = progression, because that's about the only part of a real RPG that translates well to a computer game.

How is getting free purples by logging in is RPG? Care to explain?

How do you get free purples by logging in? Care to explain? No you can't, because this is actually a strawman argument and therefore invalid.

What does all this "entitlement" because you pay $15 have to do with RPG?

Please define entitlement. I don't think you can, because from what you say it doesn't seem like you understand the word. If anything, the people demanding the removal of LFR, of stopping other people from having fun in the game just so that they can feel more unique are acting far more "entitled" than the people saying, "make content that I can complete".

How is teleporting with 24 random people to the dungeon by clicking on interface button, but not traveling there through the world, is RPG?

In the same way that not going to the toilet in game is RPG.

How is killing strong foes while frolicking or AFKing in LFR fits in with the spirit of RPG?

It's not. But then again there are probably 24 other people who aren't doing that and therefore their action is in the spirit of RPG. That fact that a few individuals choose not to participate in the game is really first and foremost their own failing. The success of LFR should however be measured according to the number of people who are actually putting some effort into participating. Those bosses don't just fall down by themselves....

If it is about "progression", why the free gear?

What "free" gear. You are arguing that the exception to rule (the 5% of players who afk through LFR) are the norm (the 95% of players who put in varying levels effort). Which is retarded.

Think about it this way: LFR provides a format for a lot of people to participate and progress their characters. And a lot do so.

Don't you understand when you get free purplez through no effort, there is NO PROGRESSION. You did NOT progress. You clicked a button and got your purplez.

Don't you understand that how some afk douche got their gear makes no difference to my (or your) personal progression.

You have no idea what role playing games feel like. Don't ever use RPG for your fail attempts to justify your free gear ride!

Again, are you talking actual RPG or computer game RPG?

Game is there to play, available to all subscribers. You can play and enjoy, you can role-play, you can progress. If you do not want to do those things, why are you in the game in the first place?

I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of LFR participant want to play and enjoy and progress. Those who do not want to do those and, for example, afk through LFR (or bgs) are an inconvenience to the rest of us, and a stupid reason for which to stop us from being able to get anything out of LFR.

[judgementofantonidas]

Since Blizzard implemented their current gearing model in early WoTLK the item level gap between the best gear available to raiders and the best gear available to non raiders has been getting wider and wider. The addition of flex and LFG, the removal of valor gear, and going from +7 I level heroic increase to +13 have really kicked the process into high gear in MoP.

Take for example patch 3.3. A player with full BiS ICC gear would have an average ilevel of 277. A BiS player who never set foot into a raid would have 261. This is a difference of 16 item levels.*

Now, in MoP a character with full BiS LFR gear + legendary cloak has an average ilevel of 543 (550 if they have full burden of eternity gear), while a player in full BiS heroic SoO gear has an item level of 576 (583 if full war forged). A difference of 33 item levels*.

So, in two expansion's time the difference between a raider and a non raider has more than doubled*. Yet everyday I see people on this forum complaining that casuals now have access to gear that should be exclusive to raiders. Why is this?

It can't just be because non raiders have access to "purple" gear, as that has been the case since they implemented the PvP system in Vanilla (the origin of the term welfare epics). Is it really just because LFR allows players to see the content?

Also, for the first time there is content in the game where non raiders really need high level gear, the top tiers of Brawler's Guild for example.


*: Blizzards ilevel formula calculates a roughly ~10%** increase in stats for every 13 item levels. Thus you need to look at absolute values rather than percentages to see the actual difference in character stats. Also keep in mind that most secondary stats serve as force multipliers rather than linear additions, and thus character power actually scales faster than the stats alone would indicate.


**: The actual number looks to be about an 11.1% increase (or an 8.8% decrease if going down instead of up) but may very SLIGHTLY based on rounding and sockets.

Edit: D'oh! Forgot to factor in crafted 553 belts and leggings. Updated my numbers to reflect this.

Simple. Tier bonuses to those who will never use them for their intended purpose.

[twoblades]

It's a huge problem. Heroic geared players now do something like 16 times the DPS of a newly dinged 90 in quest gear and still do roughly 8 times the DPS of players who have gathered a mix of Timeless and LFR gear.

It makes it impossible to create meaningful open world content. Anything meaningful for one group is either a pushover for the other or impossible for the other. It creates social conflict because of the huge differential on the DPS meters that is entirely based on the gear a character is wearing rather than skill.

Also it creates a world where nobody really cares about how nice a player is or how well-rounded or even how skillful at playing their character. All that matters is the level of gear a player has accumulated and how well they have learned the choreography of the various tightly scripted boss fights.

I was doing about 70k DPS buffed, single-target, in full blue 463 ilvl gear when I started the MSV runs during the 2nd week of MoP. Now I am doing 350k DPS buffed, single-target, at ilvl 570, which is exactly 5 times more than at the start of the expansion. If anyone does 16 times less DPS than me in a mix of timeless and LFR gear, I'm sorry but that person doesn't deserve to do anything else but pet battles.

[Brodeo]

Why? Do you pay more for the game than them?

It's nice you have all the free time in the world to dedicate to the game.

But others out there have a busy schedule that would like to play this FULL game.
So they should just run the boring dungeons and dailies forever?

The gear is hardly free. All I see is raiders complaining that LFR is a wipe fest and frustrating.
It seems to me people that put up with that nonsense earned the gear more than you did.

LFR takes longer to clear each week. A good heroic guild can progress comfortably with 2-3 2 hour raid nights per week.

[judgementofantonidas]

Wait....Why can't I play the last phase of heroic Garrosh????? This is bullshit. I pay the same money as heroic raiders.


See how stupid that sounds? You pay to have access to a game....Not the entitlement of beating it.

As for the gear. the reason its not a big deal anymore is that in bg's/arena they scale the gear down now. The main reason it was such a huge ordeal was in pvp where pve players were stomping pvp players. That is not the case anymore....hence, no one is really saying too much about it.

In their mind it is communism not capitalism. They pay their 15 dollars and they are entitled to the same things everyone else who pays 15 dollars is.

[Grogo]

You do know you are talking about a video game here.......

Yup, is the exact same thread you are talking in. You know the same thing right?