"Core spot" "Core team"

[Illiterate]

Perform better than the other X members who fulfill the same role as you do and boom, unless it's a casual guild who doesn't care about progression you have a guaranteed raid spot or "core"?

That's not the case with OP.

[Gozzu]

We don't have a bench.

You apparently do? If im not in, im benched.

[Zandalis]

Because on raid night i plan around 4 hours being spent in the actual raid, not benched. Just like a job, if im booked for a couple of hours i expect I'll actually get to work and get payed for those hours. If im not assured a raidspot, i wont show up. Ofcourse i can sit out, but that's my choice.

How about thinking about the guild more than oneself?

[PrivateSmiley]

See, now you are getting into raiding semantics 101.

I've raided with 3/4 different guilds on different servers all with different methods.

My first guild back in ICC: our core were 1 tank, 2 heals, 1 dps, everyone else was swapped out to get gear/title, then merged the best into one raid for heroics.

My second main guild: went through 4 raid leaders, each one with a different system. They all sucked becuase i never upgraded out of the chogall healing trinket becuase of them.

Current guild: play your class, be there on time, don't die to dark shamans, get 70+ hps without a legendary, and i get keep my spot.

When i raid led a icc group: can you do more than 7+K dps? Or, do you know the fights? Good, you are in.

The point is, everyone has a core, call it what you want, it is still there. The "main tank" is often a core spot. The main healer, and the top two dps. Rotate everyone else out

[Thunderball]

What people on the bench? There were no people on the bench that night. We had 10 people online. Which is why we need more than 10. I am sorry, but your hardcore raiding guild attitude doesn't really work in this discussion.

Well, you have to sort out your priorities then. If you're a friendly guild and you dont care about having people who have attendance issues then you just tell that to your recruits. It really depends on what you're going to do with the people who miss out on raids. If you're going to let them raid when they're on instead of a new recruit who consistently shows up for your raids then they have a valid concern and you have a problem. If you would be doing that get the best raidcomp or make room for a better skilled player it could be fine, but you got to be CLEAR about that.

[Count Zero]

I'm also in a guild somewhere in the middle of hardcore and casual (which is probably where most guilds are).

For every potential recruit we make it explicitly clear that absolutely no one (not even me, the Guildmaster) has a permanent/guaranteed raid spot. Everyone is on the bench roster -- which we try as best as possible to do on a boss-by-boss basis (based on group comp needs, who needs specific gears, etc, etc), although even then we can't make any guarantees because it's not always feasible to take the time to twiddle our thumbs for five minutes trying to reach someone we said we'd try to get in on the next boss.

For farm fights we try our best to get newer / lesser-geared players in, and for progress fights we try our best to get our veterans / reliable players -- but for progress, the final arbiter is group comp needs. If a brand new recruit is bringing something to the table we need much more so than even a reliable vet (even if that's one of the officers), we do what is best for progress.

Making all this clear to new recruits is actually the bulk of our recruitment process.

It's rough, and we do wind up losing out on folks who may have been great players, but I think it's contributed to our longevity. We are quite literally the last standing 25-player guild on our server. And I've had alts in more casual guilds who did not have a "a bench is necessary" mentality ... one person doesn't show up and you can't raid. Progress falls behind, gear falls behind, and it's like a feedback loop. People then leave to find a guild that is actually raiding, and the guild dies. This has happened to dozens of guilds on my server, and I won't let it happen to us.

It's impossible to carry a perfect magic number, and my biggest stress as a guildmaster is in having to bench folks who deserve to raid. Because of this I take the bench a disproportionate amount, and honestly sometimes it even is potentially at the cost of group performance (since I'm our only Warlock and healthstones and portals can be pretty crucial in many fights)

[alturic]

Because on raid night i plan around 4 hours being spent in the actual raid, not benched. Just like a job, if im booked for a couple of hours i expect I'll actually get to work and get payed for those hours. If im not assured a raidspot, i wont show up. Ofcourse i can sit out, but that's my choice.

Being a part of a "core" raid team doesn't give you the ability (scratch that, it does but be fully prepared for the possibility of losing that "core" spot) to decided when you want to sit out.

Am I in the minority that a "core" spot is nothing more than someone you'd always want to bring (i.e. is better than X), someone who obviously shows up to every raid, etc?

A "core" spot in raiding can not mean anything else, can it?

[Deleted]

As a raider that's not my problem. I log in to raid, not twiddle my thumbs and wait that maybe today will be the day. I would not join a guild if I was not part of the core. If you have 4/14 players regularly not showing up, maybe that's something you should address.

then you are wanting a guild that makes sure other members are on 100% every time, didnt realise the internet connections were perfect around the world 100
% and that people dont have unexpected issues that WILL crop up, guess you are a young one, when you get older, you will see how things change

[Illiterate]

How about thinking about the guild more than oneself?

People play the game to have fun. Sitting on a bench is not fun.

[Dubalicious]

How about thinking about the guild more than oneself?

How about not making players slaves to your guild?

(the point being- it goes both ways)

[Zandalis]

I'm also in a guild somewhere in the middle of hardcore and casual (which is probably where most guilds are).

For every potential recruit we make it explicitly clear that absolutely no one (not even me, the Guildmaster) has a permanent/guaranteed raid spot. Everyone is on the bench roster -- which we try as best as possible to do on a boss-by-boss basis (based on group comp needs, who needs specific gears, etc, etc), although even then we can't make any guarantees because it's not always feasible to take the time to twiddle our thumbs for five minutes trying to reach someone we said we'd try to get in on the next boss.

For farm fights we try our best to get newer / lesser-geared players in, and for progress fights we try our best to get our veterans / reliable players -- but for progress, the final arbiter is group comp needs. If a brand new recruit is bringing something to the table we need much more so than even a reliable vet (even if that's one of the officers), we do what is best for progress.

Making all this clear to new recruits is actually the bulk of our recruitment process.

It's rough, and we do wind up losing out on folks who may have been great players, but I think it's contributed to our longevity. We are quite literally the last standing 25-player guild on our server. And I've had alts in more casual guilds who did not have a "a bench is necessary" mentality ... one person doesn't show up and you can't raid. Progress falls behind, gear falls behind, and it's like a feedback loop. People then leave to find a guild that is actually raiding, and the guild dies. This has happened to dozens of guilds on my server, and I won't let it happen to us.

It's impossible to carry a perfect magic number, and my biggest stress as a guildmaster is in having to bench folks who deserve to raid. Because of this I take the bench a disproportionate amount, and honestly sometimes it even it potentially at the cost of group performance (since I'm our only Warlock and healthstones and portals can be pretty crucial in many fights)

Finally someone who understands where I am at. This sounds very much like us. Explaining the concept to new players is the hard part. Once they are in, they never ever complain about how it works.

[alturic]

I don't advertise that. I advertise that I need whatever players I need, and then I make sure to explain in detail how and why we do what we do. This is from talking with a healer today:

"We raid 10 man, but we do not have a "core". If you join us, you won't be a core healer, because no such thing exists. You'd be part of a healing team of 3 healers, but since we 2 heal most fights, all of us have to sit out now and then. That is the same for tanks and dps. Most of the time, if we can, we swap players in and out where we they need gear. On progression nights we swap far less."

His reply was that he'd rather be in a core team.

It's certainly possible he is a competent healer and DPS wondering why you'd swap him out when only 2 healers are needed? I don't know what type guild you are (casual or progression orientated, as you say you do progress into heroics?) but I'm more concerned (as would any potential raider looking to join a real raiding guild, i.e. not one who's OK with "eh jim didn't show up tonight again, lets try tomorrow") that you would have 3 healers on one fight with a DPS sitting out and then 2 healers on another and bringing that DPS in instead of having one of the healers/tanks swapping to DPS.

That's another definition of a "core" member to me (read my definition above) someone who can actually perform dual roles just as well.

[clevin]

As a guild master the last 5 years of a largely successful guild for what our goals are, I find it harder and harder to recruit players these days. Obviously, there is the problem of less raiders and more players skipping normal/heroic entirely because of LFR/Flex, but this is not the topic of this thread, so leave that one.

I want to discuss what I meet in most players we end up talking to about joining: "Core spot".

What is the obsession players have with this? We don't have a core spot, nor do we have a bench. We have a raid roster of 14 players for a 10 man team. It goes without saying that if you have 14 players, not everyone will be raiding every raid. Why is this a problem for so many players? Do every other guild simply have 10 players and they show up every raid? I can't believe that. Do they all have 10 raiders, and then another 5 that they use only when some of the first 10 are missing?

I just don't understand why people are so afraid when I say that during farming we swap players in and out for bosses they need and that in progression we swap much less, but everyone has to expect to sit out now and then. Even myself, all officers, noone is excluded from this.

We raid 2 nights per week, 6 hours in total. We progress deep into heroic every tier, if not clearing it.

Why such a fear of not having a "core spot"?

Because 14 people for 10 spots means 4 people will need to sit each night. This is even worse of you have fixed tanks and healers since at least 4 of those 10 spots are fixed. That means you have 5 or 6 spots through which you rotate 9 or 10 people - basically, your DPS only gets to raid about half the time if you rotate evenly.

For someone who wants to raid weekly, that's not interesting. It's especially an issue if they are rotated on a schedule so that even if one does great DPS and another isn't very good, the good raider gets rotated out for someone who isn't playing as well. IF you're rotating based on performance (10 core, 4 bench) then your bench players are being asked to log in on the off chance they will raid... but that's hard if you want plan your evenings (so is any rotation scheme not based on dates).

This, btw, is why 10 normals will be gone in WOD - why are you asking people to sit vs taking all 14 into Flex? Unless you're hardcore all you do is add drama potential.

[PrivateSmiley]

Finally someone who understands where I am at. This sounds very much like us. Explaining the concept to new players is the hard part. Once they are in, they never ever complain about how it works.

I don't think anyone here doesn't get your setup, and i bet you most of us have been in a guild like that before, see my first post here. I think everyone is basing their arguments over your statement of a lack of core raiders, which they are then trying to refute/point out

[Zandalis]

Because 14 people for 10 spots means 4 people will need to sit each night. This is even worse of you have fixed tanks and healers since at least 4 of those 10 spots are fixed. That means you have 5 or 6 spots through which you rotate 9 or 10 people - basically, your DPS only gets to raid about half the time if you rotate evenly.

For someone who wants to raid weekly, that's not interesting. It's especially an issue if they are rotated on a schedule so that even if one does great DPS and another isn't very good, the good raider gets rotated out for someone who isn't playing as well. IF you're rotating based on performance (10 core, 4 bench) then your bench players are being asked to log in on the off chance they will raid... but that's hard if you want plan your evenings (so is any rotation scheme not based on dates).

This, btw, is why 10 normals will be gone in WOD - why are you asking people to sit vs taking all 14 into Flex? Unless you're hardcore all you do is add drama potential.

Yes, you are right, this problem will disappear in WoD for flexible, but we'll have the same problem in Mythical (of which all of our current raiders are more than capable of raiding).

[Huser]

I raided semi-hardcore in 5.0 in 25 mans. 4 hours, 2 nights. We were in the top 5, 2 night a week guilds in the world and we did NOT have a "core-spot" policy. The policy our guild used, which i think is the best policy by far, is the "Best 25" policy. We take the top 25 (for the first night of a tier this is usually old raiders/top geared players) each night. If you suck and die to stupid shit you get benched the next night to see if someone out performs you. If the person you got benched for outperforms you they get your spot for the next week, and so on. We held a roster of ~ 30 players for our 25 man heroic raiding but also asked some players to sit bench for others to get loot, or because another class simply outperformed them on a specific fight. Also in a 25 man guild your bound to have 1-2 players miss weekly (as that still meets a 90% attendance record if each player misses a different raid, etc) so the bench was dipped in to almost every night.

[Deleted]

also should add, people feel to be entitled pricks, im very curious to how they act in the real world, im thinking they act like sheldon from big bang theory, its my spot pretty much is what i picture here.

guilds when they are made want to raid, and first thing first, get a raid going consistently, but gonna leave it at that, ive had way too many arguments with pricks like a lot of posters here, just think about that 1 main point ive mentioned

[Deleted]

14 sounds like a lot unless you're pushing good world ranks. If you actually have the need for that many raiders because you often have 4+ unavailable, you're probably better off replacing the ones that don't show up half the time instead of recruiting more. 11-12 should be fine if people have proper attendance (say 90%), maaaaaaybe 13 tops if people are okay with that.

[clevin]

You'd rather have half the raids cancelled because a tank and a dps were missing every week?

Recruit for reliability. Quit letting people no show and continue to raid. If people no show more than very occasionally (and by no show I also mean cancel at the last minute) then put them on the bench and take the people who show up when they say they will. If you're not doing signups, do signups so you have some way for people to say "yes, I'll be there and want to raid" or "No, I can't be there."

Bottom line is that if you routinely have people no show you have a different issue. As for putting the guild first... why would a new recruit give a crap about the guild? By definition, they're new and have no attachment to it or its members.

[Illiterate]

also should add, people feel to be entitled pricks, im very curious to how they act in the real world, im thinking they act like sheldon from big bang theory, its my spot pretty much is what i picture here.

guilds when they are made want to raid, and first thing first, get a raid going consistently, but gonna leave it at that, ive had way too many arguments with pricks like a lot of posters here, just think about that 1 main point ive mentioned

Raiding is serious business. If I wanted a second job I would get one and actually get paid for it.