What about our mighty warchief Vol'jin in WoD?

[khalltusk]

Thrall and saurfang stood toe to toe against those forces, risked both there lives to get to garrosh, well vol'jin sat outside orgrimmar until most of the kor'kohn where already dead, and then snuk in at the end.

This is exactly the same thing he did in the battle for undercity, sat outside doing fuck all while thrall and sylvanas took the city back.

He's a coward

How excited are you for the direction Thrall will go in WoD? I think it sort of works out. He left the horde to do the world saving bullshit in cata. Had to try and fix the hordes mess in MOP and felt like he didnt deserve to lead the horde puts voljin in charge. Then goes on a suicide run puts his armour on and fights alongside his old man and hopefully we get a bit more of the old Thrall back (one whos a bit more sure of him self rather than doubting his ability to lead the orcs).

[Trassk]

How excited are you for the direction Thrall will go in WoD? I think it sort of works out. He left the horde to do the world saving bullshit in cata. Had to try and fix the hordes mess in MOP and felt like he didnt deserve to lead the horde puts voljin in charge. Then goes on a suicide run puts his armour on and fights alongside his old man and hopefully we get a bit more of the old Thrall back (one whos a bit more sure of him self rather than doubting his ability to lead the orcs).

yeah I'm happy with this, the developers did fuck up in cataclysm with him, and seeing him do this makes it feel like he is the old Thrall again. Even in the final cinematic, where Thrall looks at Varian with that level of contempt in his eye, thats the Thrall people remember, and that Thrall is now leading us into draenor.

But it still doesn't excuse the fact that Vol'jins just useless, that he hides in the background while others do all the work. Whatever people can say about Thrall, at least he got up and bloody well did something.

[Dessan]

Thrall will wanna make up for leaving Garrosh in charge. He'll probably let Vol'Jin scrape the Horde back up to fighting shape. It'd make the most sense.

[Pony Soldier]

If only Blizzard didn't kill off Nazgrim. That was probably the worst if not one of the worst decisions they made for the story. They could've made it that you fight Nazgrim but when you beat him you don't kill him instead he sees how wrong Garrosh is and when you go to fight him he jumps in to help you or something like that that doesn't involve Nazgrim dying. Then they could've made him the Warchief and build on Nazgrim to make him a bigger character. But no lets just kill him off for really stupid reasons. I still think Saurfang would've been a good choice too. But no lets go the super predictable way.

[khalltusk]

yeah I'm happy with this, the developers did fuck up in cataclysm with him, and seeing him do this makes it feel like he is the old Thrall again. Even in the final cinematic, where Thrall looks at Varian with that level of contempt in his eye, thats the Thrall people remember, and that Thrall is now leading us into draenor.

But it still doesn't excuse the fact that Vol'jins just useless, that he hides in the background while others do all the work. Whatever people can say about Thrall, at least he got up and bloody well did something.

Yeh I was kinda meh about Voljin I felt he was under used in game in mop. He should have done a bit more. we got a few lines of text and a bit of voice acting in 5.4 to show us how "warchief" he is.

I am seriously hoping seeing how his old man and doom hammer would handle things will make Thrall get a bit more of a backbone in certain areas. Hes great but sometimes he was a bit too passive.

The devs/metz did say this will be Thralls time and will be good for him to be around all these other orcs.

[Zulkhan]

Can you imagine someone introducing Vol'jin as warchief of the horde to legendary orcs such as Grom, Durotan, Doomhammer, etc.? They would laugh their ass off.

I don't think their opinion matter at all, since most of them followed the direction of the very one orc we had a very painful time in dethroning, menacing to invade Azeroth in the same manner the Old Horde did in our timeline. If anything, THEY have to prove something to us, unless they don't want to be all slaughtered (again).

Well that's heroic. There's great danger coming from the portal, danger serious enough we have to go investigate on possibly a sucidie mission and the warchief of the horde stays behind playing political leader?

I can already imagine voljin "yea you guys go ahead see whats up with that portal mon i be here shuffling papers"

No leader of no faction and no race moved its own stinky ass in all the world-threatening dangers occured in Vanilla.

No Alliance leader moved its own stinky ass in Outland during TBC, and Thrall first sent a whole Horde's army, hoping to find traces of his people, and then came in Outland when he had news of the son of Grom and his greatmother.

And WotLK? Thrall sent, again, an army of thousand of Horde soldiers, he sent Saurfang and Hellscream, while he remained behind. He's a pitful coward then? No, he was the Warchief of the Horde. He later shows up just for attend to some war games, he didn't even go in ICC, because leading the army there were the orcs responsible of the Northrend's invasion (Varok and Garrosh) and Varian mirrored all Thrall's appereances (except the one after the Deathbringer's demise).
Ofcourse there is the Undercity, since what happened there was nothing but a civil war for the Horde, and Thrall had to take responsibility about it (while Varian went there mostly because he was pissed for Bolvar's death).

Cataclysm? Garrosh go in the Twilight Highlands just for letting himself be shotted down and then showing up when the work was done, for the rest Garrosh started an all-out war against the Alliance WHILE Deathwing was threatening to destroy the world, so clearly he wasn't much concerned. Varian...just m.i.a. the whole expansion.

So, excatly, which is your point?

Hopefully Grom will become Warchief of the Horde at the end of WoD, or at least leader of the Orcs.

Hopefully not. If we have to get an orc from Draenor becoming Warchief, let's take Durotan, or even better Doomhammer. No more Hellscreams as Warchief for god sake.

And Zulkhan, I understand you have a big raging one for vol'jin and trolls in general, but even you must have the sense to see how unforfilling a character he is. Even Zul'jin has more life in his story, and he's been dead since tbc.

No, I'm not raging about Vol'jin or the trolls ecc., I'm "raging" because what I see everytime it's mostly an irritating twist of arguments. I understand your own rage about the fact Thrall didn't become Warchief again. Yeah, don't deny it, I could link a thread in which you wrote about a "graduation" of the Warchief candidates, and Vol'jin was the FIRST non-orc candidate, still he became the most worthless shit ever existed because that possibility became reality. I cannot stand to such a level of incoherence, and there is a difference to be partially dissapointed (like I could understand you could be) and going in all-out rage because things didn't go in the manner you wanted.

Vol'jin has been developed as a character in a pretty precise way, and the novel (which I read, don't know about you) did nothing but define better that characterization. And which one you could ask? Simple, the one of the kind of leader the Horde needed and deserved right now, not a hero saving the world or any other shit, but just the one that could lead the Horde in its time of need.

This is the difference with Thrall, which gradually shown that his right place was not in leading his faction, but doing something tied with the "greater good", in which he would have been able to use his empathetic skills in a better way, where instead these proved to be counter-productive as Warchief, since his desperate attempts of achieving peace with the Alliance caused just more troubles and more mess. Vol'jin instead doesn't care about peace with the Alliance, reason for which is very good that he doesn't have any strong relationship with any Alliance character, because this proves that will be uniquely tied with the Horde alone, and the well-being of the Horde will be his only concern. He doesn't care about the greater good. He just cares about the well-being of the Horde. In utter opposition to Garrosh, which betrayed the values of the Horde for elevate his own race, Vol'jin opposed his own race for protect those values. Here's the difference.

And you know which is the most ironic thing in all of this? I was one of those who didn't want Vol'jin becoming Warchief, I was more than happy in just having him as Chieftain and leader of the Darkspear. But in the end I had to give up that with the progression the story took and the in-depth look the novel let me to see, this choice had pretty good sense.

And no, the novel it's not an "improvised attempt" of making Vol'jin looks good, because what it's wrote there is nothing particular shocking or revolutionary about Vol'jin's character, but just confirms some aspects of his character and give a deeper look on others. Trassk, you're the first to say that the game don't let to see the "inner thoughts" of the characters and so the way they are developed are limited, and Vol'jin never had one. It's time to keep on your words.

Anyway I have no intention of changing your way of looking at the situation, but this is my opinion, and it's much adamant as yours.

[Gozzu]

In my opinion, WoD is exactly why Vol'jin or any troll or any other race for that matter should have never become warchief of the horde.

It's obvious the next expansion will be orc lore heavy from the horde side and I feel Vol'jin just doesn't fit in all of this. What's his stake in all this?

Can you imagine someone introducing Vol'jin as warchief of the horde to legendary orcs such as Grom, Durotan, Doomhammer, etc.? They would laugh their ass off.

Of course Blizz will try to explain it away but I think no matter how they spin it they made a huge blunder there.

Why the hell would they laugh at a gigantic tusked monster leading the Horde? They've never known the horde we know, they've honestly never known any horde at all, seeing as they never banded together under Ner'zhul and Gul'dan, so they couldn't possibly have that prejudice.
What they'll know is what Garrosh told them, and he never knew much of the Horde either, so all they'll see is a ritualistic beast leading a horde of savages, just like they do.

[Drilnos]

I expect Vol'jin to most likely sit out WoD in the same way that Thrall mostly sat out WotLK, with Thrall taking Garrosh's place as the forward commander. Warchief is a largely administrative position.

[Zulkhan]

Thrall and saurfang stood toe to toe against those forces, risked both there lives to get to garrosh, well vol'jin sat outside orgrimmar until most of the kor'kohn where already dead, and then snuk in at the end.

This is exactly the same thing he did in the battle for undercity, sat outside doing fuck all while thrall and sylvanas took the city back.

He's a coward

That whole attack in Undercity makes no sense how it's seen in-game regardless. Lorewise have no sense that just two racial leaders, plus an overpowered "adventure" clean up the whole of the Undercity's forces, with a crazy amount of treacherous forsaken and demons. In the Alliance version there are guys of the caliber of Bearmantle and Sanguinar, still they sit there doing nothing, while Varian cleaves everything.

About the Siege, I don't think it's a fair comparison, since Thrall and Varok have been able to infiltrate in Orgrimmar thanks to Nazgrim (the fact that they were orcs and not public enemies of Garrosh I guess helped a lot) and they didn't have to fight a good fuck until they didn't meet the mantid (that didn't gave a fuck if they were orcs or not) while Vol'jin and his rebellion had to fight his way to and inside Orgrimmar.

[Deleted]

In my opinion, WoD is exactly why Vol'jin or any troll or any other race for that matter should have never become warchief of the horde.

It's obvious the next expansion will be orc lore heavy from the horde side and I feel Vol'jin just doesn't fit in all of this. What's his stake in all this?

Can you imagine someone introducing Vol'jin as warchief of the horde to legendary orcs such as Grom, Durotan, Doomhammer, etc.? They would laugh their ass off.

Of course Blizz will try to explain it away but I think no matter how they spin it they made a huge blunder there.

Actually this makes perfect sense, if the Iron Horde acknowledge that the "future" Horde have a Troll (a random race) leading them, then they will have reasons to not like the "future" Horde.
You just confirmed that Iron Horde will be hostile to the "future" Horde, therefore we have a reason to fight them.
If it was a Orc leading the "future" Horde (someone like Garrosh), then for what reason should they fight us?

[khalltusk]

Actually this makes perfect sense, if the Iron Horde acknowledge that the "future" Horde have a Troll (a random race) leading them, then they will have reasons to not like the "future" Horde.
You just confirmed that Iron Horde will be hostile to the "future" Horde, therefore we have a reason to fight them.
If it was a Orc leading the "future" Horde (someone like Garrosh), then for what reason should they fight us?

^ This.

Also we don't KNOW yet what will happen later on.

For example 5.0 Garry sends a crack team of Horde troops to Panda land. 5.1 Once we had sorted out a lot of issues (Mantid and sha all but wiped out Mogu and trolls have retreated to an unknown location). He comes in with an army to back you up and take the fight to this new land.

In 6.0 Thrall and our lot of troops who make it through the suicide run will setup shop in The frost wolf area. by 6.1 when all of 6.0s mess has been largelly dealt with and we have some sort of safe (ish) route to the new Draenor Voljin might turn up with reinforcements.

[Deleted]

That whole attack in Undercity makes no sense how it's seen in-game regardless. Lorewise have no sense that just two racial leaders, plus an overpowered "adventure" clean up the whole of the Undercity's forces, with a crazy amount of treacherous forsaken and demons. In the Alliance version there are guys of the caliber of Bearmantle and Sanguinar, still they sit there doing nothing, while Varian cleaves everything.

Lorewise Undercity was taken by a group of adventurer's, blizzard at the time didn't have the technology to do it with many people without making a "Open the Ahn'Qiraj Portals" incident....

Oh and Vol'jin was the one in charge of the strategy of the attack, he got behind on the attack to Undercity because he was planning the fight (at least lorewise...), but in SoO he was behind Thrall and Saurfang because they did go on a "friendly" walk to talk sense with Garrosh about a week prior to the attack on Ogrimmar, they just fought the Mantid.

[Zulkhan]

Lorewise Undercity was taken by a group of adventurer's, blizzard at the time didn't have the technology to do it with many people without making a "Open the Ahn'Qiraj Portals" incident....

It's also worth to mention that when you meet Thrall and Sylvanas as Alliance player, or Varian and Jaina as Horde player, they are respectevely backed with a bunch of Kor'kron/7th Legion soldiers, which are completely absent ofcourse in the side the player keep doing the scenario.

Oh and Vol'jin was the one in charge of the strategy of the attack, he got behind on the attack to Undercity because he was planning the fight (at least lorewise...)

Yeah, Vol'jin is often refered as a tactical advisor that Thrall himself spefically wanted to have at his side, still I'm pretty curious about the "lorewise reasons" for which, Alliance side, Broll and Sanguinar remained behind.

but in SoO he was behind Thrall and Saurfang because they did go on a "friendly" walk to talk sense with Garrosh about a week prior to the attack on Ogrimmar, they just fought the Mantid.

Yeah, I added something about it later in my previous post.

[Kralljin]

Yeah, Vol'jin is often refered as a tactical advisor that Thrall himself spefically wanted to have at his side, still I'm pretty curious about the "lorewise reasons" for which, Alliance side, Broll and Sanguinar remained behind.

You usually leave some people behind if you're charging into a dead end so that they can alert you of suprise reinforcements to delay a surround in said dead end.

[Flaks]

Honestly I'm expecting lore based on OUR Horde to take a back seat for a long LONG time.

[lorivock]

imagine if lor'thermar became warchief imagine how bad they would they would be laughing grom,ogrim, and durotan would probaly be laughing so hard they would'nt even wanna sing there weapons.

[MatadorMedia]

Vol'jin has never actually been announced as the Warchief. "I speak for the Horde" is what Vol'jin said, reiterated by Thrall's "If you lead, I will follow." He is the current political leader of the Horde, mostly for his ability to negotiate with the Alliance. That doesn't make him a Warchief (ie: military leader over the orcs). I doubt the Warchief title will be used at all.

Vol'jin will probably send Thrall to Draenor just like Wrynn will send Velen.

[Zulkhan]

You usually leave some people behind if you're charging into a dead end so that they can alert you of suprise reinforcements to delay a surround in said dead end.

It's likely, but it's still a bit difficult to figure out, especially in the pretty unrealistic scenario that is shown in game.

Vol'jin has never actually been announced as the Warchief. "I speak for the Horde" is what Vol'jin said, reiterated by Thrall's "If you lead, I will follow." He is the current political leader of the Horde, mostly for his ability to negotiate with the Alliance. That doesn't make him a Warchief (ie: military leader over the orcs). I doubt the Warchief title will be used at all.

We can argue pretty well that Vol'jin gained the Warchief title. Sylvanas used the word in her text, aswell as Thrall which says that Vol'jin didn't want the "position", so the hints that he's, in fact, the Warchief are just too strong.

It's obvious that "Warchief" doesn't mean anymore "leader of the clans", but in the modern Horde era it's just "leader of the races of the Horde", since the Horde it's not anymore a coalition of orc clans, but an alliance of six races.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly I'm expecting lore based on OUR Horde to take a back seat for a long LONG time.

Agreed. And a lot even.

[Deathgoose]

Isn't this supposed to be before they have invaded Azeroth? How many Tauren, Trolls, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins, or Pandas have the Orc leaders of Draenor really encountered before the events that kick off the expac?

[Zulkhan]

Isn't this supposed to be before they have invaded Azeroth? How many Tauren, Trolls, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins, or Pandas have the Orc leaders of Draenor really encountered before the events that kick off the expac?

None of them. They know absolutely nothing of Azeroth.