The fall of Jaina Proudmoore

[Thage]

Jaina's in an odd place because she's still working her way through her emotional and mental breakdown from the climax of Tides of War. She's willing to give peace a chance, but tends toward hardline responses when the Horde tries to abuse that, as seen when she expels the Sunreavers from Dalaran and arrests many of them, and her stance toward the Horde (that it should no longer be allowed to self-govern) is largely justifiable insofar as the orcs have a proven track record of warmongering and refusing peaceful solutions--here, Thrall, Eitrigg, and Saurfang are the exception rather than the rule. Seems she doesn't trust Vol'jin much, either, and again for fairly good reason (every time she starts trusting the Horde, lately, someone goes out of their way to screw her over).

By the same token, though, when someone from the Horde goes out of their way to try making peace work, she's generally receptive. At the Isle of Thunder, when Taran Zhu finally gets Jaina and Lor'themar talking for five seconds instead of preparing to beat the shit out of each other, she realizes that he's out to take Garrosh down same as her (to whit, when she claims peace won't happen while Garrosh runs the show, Lor'themar responds by noting that's exactly why he doesn't want to waste troops on the Isle, showing his hand and his intent to turn on Hellscream) and agrees to withdraw without bloodshed.

[Aquamonkey]

We can't really assume they switched to Vol'jin because of complaints. Not everything blizzard says about upcoming story content turns out to be true, for example we were told that Garrosh was going to die in SoO, far too late for them to have simply changed their mind considering how he's being used in WoD. It could easily be that the person who said it was Thrall was either A. misinformed himself, B. saying it was Thrall to throw off their true plans, or C. misspoke.

This isn't exactly a smoking gun. But Thrall coming back and being Warchief was a selling point for MoP. Then they changed their tune that the new Warchief would be someone nobody would see coming. Then spent the rest of the time building up the alternative to Thrall.

March 2012:

Can you tell us a bit more about the upcoming raid on Orgrimmar?
Sure. We haven't designed very much of it right now, we just know we do want to have the recognition from the Horde and Alliance that we have to depose Garrosh as the leader of the Horde and reinstate Thrall as Warchief. I'm really excited about it from a player perspective, because I think if you're an Alliance player, the idea about doing a raid into the heart of your enemies capital is really satisfying, and deposing the enemy leader is super gratifying. On the Horde side, it's going to be super cool to have a raid in your own home town, and who doesn't want Thrall to be the leader of the Horde? (Source)

Jan 2013:

Has the writing crew decided who Warchief will be after Garrosh? I don't want to know who, I'm just curious.
Yes (Source)

Sep 2013:

Re: "Unexpected" Warchief. We spent two years after saying that setting him up. Would be a fail if he was still TOTALLY unexpected. (Source)

As for the planning out ahead of time what they were doing in 6.0. That doesn't really have any bearing on who the Warchief is. Thrall is going to Draenor even while not the Warchief. Also, back then, they didn't say we were killing Garrosh, they said "depose". So they didn't flipflop on that at all.

[Trassk]

I've quoted it before, metzen and kosak made J Allan Brack look like an asshole.

[Florena]

Will have to see if I can track it down but I recall a tweet form one of the devs shortly before 5.4 came out where someone asked if garrosh would die and they 'confirmed' he would.

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't exactly a smoking gun. But Thrall coming back and being Warchief was a selling point for MoP. Then they changed their tune that the new Warchief would be someone nobody would see coming. Then spent the rest of the time building up the alternative to Thrall.

March 2012:

Can you tell us a bit more about the upcoming raid on Orgrimmar?
Sure. We haven't designed very much of it right now, we just know we do want to have the recognition from the Horde and Alliance that we have to depose Garrosh as the leader of the Horde and reinstate Thrall as Warchief. I'm really excited about it from a player perspective, because I think if you're an Alliance player, the idea about doing a raid into the heart of your enemies capital is really satisfying, and deposing the enemy leader is super gratifying. On the Horde side, it's going to be super cool to have a raid in your own home town, and who doesn't want Thrall to be the leader of the Horde? (Source)

Jan 2013:

Has the writing crew decided who Warchief will be after Garrosh? I don't want to know who, I'm just curious.
Yes (Source)

Sep 2013:

Re: "Unexpected" Warchief. We spent two years after saying that setting him up. Would be a fail if he was still TOTALLY unexpected. (Source)

As for the planning out ahead of time what they were doing in 6.0. That doesn't really have any bearing on who the Warchief is. Thrall is going to Draenor even while not the Warchief. Also, back then, they didn't say we were killing Garrosh, they said "depose". So they didn't flipflop on that at all.

You're right that THrall going to Draenor and Garrosh being spared has nothing to do with who the warchief is. But it does show that they're not sidelining Thrall. If they were reacting to fan complaints about there being too much Thrall it seems odd to me that they would keep him active and involved in the story but not make him warchief. Shortly after that interview blizz said not all the info in it was accurate. It just doesn't add up in my head that they are both keeping thrall as a main character with a horde centric role if they're trying to scale him back because they think people are tired of him.

[Trassk]

That infact did happen, but it wasn't a tweet, it was in a video, I think maybe an interview in korea or china, asking the devs there about will garrosh die, and they said yes, he would.

As you see, the developers are purely fickle, or, they spread misinformation there own design teams, making them look like they don't have a clue whats happening in there company they work for.

I'm not 100% sure but I think it was this video. I'm to tied here to look all though but take a look at it and see if they say it (ironic it being Greg Street saying this now he's left the company).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Y00yDo-Ss

[Florena]

That infact did happen, but it wasn't a tweet, it was in a video, I think maybe an interview in korea or china, asking the devs there about will garrosh die, and they said yes, he would.

As you see, the developers are purely fickle, or, they spread misinformation there own design teams, making them look like they don't have a clue whats happening in there company they work for.

It was too late in the design process for them to have changed their mind at the last minute. It may have been intentional misinformation or maybe not everyone was on the same page. As for Thrall and MoP it seems AT LEAST as likely to me that they simply threw Thrall's name out there because they didn't want to spoil EVERY plot twist in MoP while they were giving away the overall ending as it does for them to be both keeping Thrall int he spotlight as a main horde character and at the same time not making him warchief because they think people are tired of him. If anything the ones they're pandering to are horde fans who want the 'old' thrall back rather than alliance players who want him gone. And I do mean IF they're pandering.

[Trassk]

like I say, if this was the video, it was greg street who said it, meaning they either slipped misinformation to him, or he knew, and spread misinformation himself.

[Florena]

And if they'd give misinformation, intentionally or not, on Garrosh living or dying I think it stands to reason that it's at least possible the 'reveal' of Thrall becoming Warchief again was the same way.

[Trassk]

Which just makes this whole thing mean nothing the devs say can be taken seriously, since they'd sooner piss out misinformation and cause a craze over sometime..

Sorry, I keep saying misinformation, this is outright lying to your community. If this kind of thing happened in politics, a politicians would be cremated by the people.


"Thats right everyone, jobs for everyone in the next 5 months!"
*five months later*
"Oooh I'm sorry, i meant to say we're have no jobs for you in 5 months, and more people out of work and poor, my bad!"

[SinR]

I already see a Dalaran raid..

LFR part 1 Portal of Retribution
LFR part 2 The upperhold
LFR part 3 Downfall of the Citadel

Part one: Vale Of Eternal Happiness


Featuring everyone's favorite Sha as the last boss

[Haven]

One could only wish for Dalaran raid.

[Duito]

I just want to kill her, as horde, for no other reason besides her hallow twisted threats. She deserves a swift death, by no other then a horde solider...hopefully this will happen sooner then later

[Florena]

I just want to kill her, as horde, for no other reason besides her hallow twisted threats. She deserves a swift death, by no other then a horde solider...hopefully this will happen sooner then later

Maybe if you give us Sylvannas.

[rowaasr13]

LOL.

And the trolls, tauren, goblins, blood elves, forsaken, every other member of the horde. Many of them have been around longer then any humans in lore, so alliance don't have any say in what the story should be about, such.. pathetic bias.

Trassk, it seems list of your flaws also contains inability to read. Did you read "Orcs"? I thought you like them so you'd notice the word.

- - - Updated - - -

Weeeell, he only said Orcs to go home, which is Orgrimmar? And the others are already home.

Pfff... home? I thought the rest of the word calls this "squatting". Don't need any green dirty hobos on Azeroth.

[Combatbutler]

Maybe if you give us Sylvannas.

She is already being set up, it is only a matter of time now. There are more and more hints pointing to her ultimate death.

[Vargas]

Maybe if you give us Sylvannas.

You can have her; I'm horde and I think the Forsaken are more trouble than they are worth.

I so, so, so want to put a sword through Jaina's chest.

[Florena]

She is already being set up, it is only a matter of time now. There are more and more hints pointing to her ultimate death.

Will have to see what happens in War Crimes, Jaina and Sylvannas are both slated for character arcs it seems.

[Trubo]

Very belated replies to this thread starting from page 4

Just ignore that the Tauren just had a civil war and were under siege by the Alliance. Even Jaina understood that the Tauren couldn't just leave the Horde without leaving themselves completely exposed.

Just ignore that Vol'jin constantly objected to Garrosh's leadership choices, threatened to kill him, then moved all his people out of Orgrimmar in protest.

Just ignore that Garrosh used intimidation to keep the other races in line; threatening to kill those who voiced their objections. He even threatened to burn UC to the ground if they didn't go along with his orders.

Also don't forget that the Tauren, via Cairne, attempted to overthrow Garrosh long before Garrosh's Cata+MoP atrocities. That alone makes them the one Horde race I still admire, the Grimtotem notwithstanding.

Good points, though on the topic of Vol'jin he threatened Garrosh...then proceeded to follow orders, even if he had an attitude, until he was almost assassinated. But from the perspective of an Alliance character it's perfectly reasonable to not feel sympathetic to the Horde after what happened, especially to those who lost a lot to Garrosh's war.

The problem with Vol'jin and his Trolls is that if they had left the Horde in refusal to obey Garrosh:

1. Garrosh would attempt to kill them all just because
2. Vol'jin and his people would have nowhere else to turn too (at the time) due to tensions between them and the Alliance along with them and all the other troll nations.

Vol'jin acted in a way that put the needs of his people over everyone else, an admirable trait in a leader. He couldn't act sooner because he was not certain the other Horde races would rally to his side and even if they did they wouldn't be strong enough to actually lay siege to Orgrimmar; Garrosh was researching how to create an army of soldiers similar to what the Mogu of old did. Had he succeeded then even the combined might of the rebel Horde and the Alliance might not have been enough to stop Garrosh's Horde.

This doesn't excuse him or any of the other Horde racial leaders for inaction until the failed assassination attempt against him which he could use as the starting point for the rebellion. I still don't like him as much as Cairne but given all that has happened Blizzard certainly could have done much worse than Vol'jin as Warchief.

Exposed to whom? The only reason the Alliance were besieging them in the first place was because they were supporting the Horde.

Well, the Alliance, the Quillboar who are considered a threat by lore, not in-game, and Magetha + her Grimtotem. Still, it's very hard to convince someone you've fought against for decades that suddenly you're not their enemy, especially when they have very little reason to believe you.

Besides even if they had left the Horde at that time Garrosh would simply turn his armies on the Tauren who, in addition to the previously aforementioned, would have been unable to defend themselves.

LOL.

And the trolls, tauren, goblins, blood elves, forsaken, every other member of the horde. Many of them have been around longer then any humans in lore, so alliance don't have any say in what the story should be about, such.. pathetic bias.

All of those races are indigenous to Azeroth; Orcs aren't. But that's not really relevant to the conversation at hand.

Which just makes this whole thing mean nothing the devs say can be taken seriously, since they'd sooner piss out misinformation and cause a craze over sometime..

Sorry, I keep saying misinformation, this is outright lying to your community. If this kind of thing happened in politics, a politicians would be cremated by the people.


"Thats right everyone, jobs for everyone in the next 5 months!"
*five months later*
"Oooh I'm sorry, i meant to say we're have no jobs for you in 5 months, and more people out of work and poor, my bad!"

Takes more than that to ruin a political career as they can blame anything they want on why job "creation" didn't work out as planned. Course that doesn't help if your opposition is even more pathetic than you.

As for the original comment about Jaina: She is understandably pissed off at the Horde in general; yes Garrosh and his supporters were the instigators but the rest of the Horde allowed these action to occur by following orders, even if it was (eventually) against their personal feelings and doesn't excuse them from the consequences. Her call to dismantle the Horde as a political and military organization is a far cry from her desire to simply destroy Orgrimmar but still not a good idea story wise as the only way to do so would be a return to how Humans imprisoned the Orcs before Thrall's Horde. Perhaps in time her mood will stabilize a bit but I doubt she'll ever return to her previous neutral to a fault self.

Given the circumstances she's doing better than many I believe would in her shoes.

[Combatbutler]

Will have to see what happens in War Crimes, Jaina and Sylvannas are both slated for character arcs it seems.

Her trying to undermine Vol'jin does not bode well, the crimes she committed etc. either she has some form of epiphany or another horde city will be raided in a few expansions.

[Florena]

But we already raided Undercity.