The Purple Precedent: Why it is bad for the community

[Deleted]

This wouldn't work unless fights were made so generic that they would all fit into a system such as this. Classes would have to be the same as well. No thanks. It would be massively complicated and no one would be happy with it because inevitably inequities would creep in due to variance in fight mechanics and people learning how to cheese the system to their best advantage, no matter the damage to the group in doing so.

And it wouldn't really reward the people who need it the most. If you reward the best 10 players based on their performance, those are the 10 least likely to actually need better gear. Try to run Siege of Orgrimmar now and be one of the top 10 if you only have enough gear to get into the raid. There are people who do heroic raids, who have heroic gear that still step into LFR and they are doing massive amounts of DPS. They would get better gear while not needing it, and the guys who need it will never be able to beat the top guys, because they have it harder to get better gear.

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Blizzard could very easily homogenize all items under a single colour and I would be fine with that but they haven't so while colour doesn't matter to you it obviously matters to enough people who play this game that they keep it. I wouldn't say I was yammering I'm not entirely sure you even read what I am discussing.

Whether something is purple or blue doesn't matter. If it's the same item level it has the same stats.

[Jessicka]

When are you people going to understand that the color of the name of our items doesn't matter? Players don't care if an item is grey, white, green, blue, purple or orange. Players are going to wear whichever item gives the most stats and empowers their character the most. Stop fixating on trivial things like the color of some words.

Of all things to discuss about WoW, the constant yammering about "epics" is the silliest.

Colour offers an 'at a glance' assessment of a players' gearing level. Mixing it up by reverting lower item level gear to blues would just cause confusion, even more so if those who 'earned them in time' got to keep theirs as purple.

Similarly, "upgrading" to a blue from a purple would be jarring as already noted. That is why the system has never been changed since classic.

[Yimereh]

This wouldn't work unless fights were made so generic that they would all fit into a system such as this. Classes would have to be the same as well. No thanks. It would be massively complicated and no one would be happy with it because inevitably inequities would creep in due to variance in fight mechanics and people learning how to cheese the system to their best advantage, no matter the damage to the group in doing so.

It seems to work well in sports, now of course sometimes stats aren't always 100% indicative of performance but they are certainly fairly accurate. Blizzard should easily be able to calculate someones max stationary DPS based on spec and gear and the average % DPS of each individual boss fight for a class/spec. Fire and things of the sort that are avoidable should also come into the mix, based on the % of avoidable damage your took out of the total relevant avoidable damage(meaning fire 50 yards away isn't relevant). Factoring in a class' ability to self mitigate and mitigate damage for others. Effective use of proactive cooldowns(realistically by the end of a boss fight you should have used every offensive cooldown at least once during appropriate times). I'm not saying this would be easy to implement but long-term there isn't any reason why some kind of incentive system can't be rationally implemented that is fair for someone who is doing LFR. I'm not talking Nazi strict either just a threshold that is realistically attainable.

You could give a weekly progress comparison to demonstrate to players where they have improved and what they could have done better. This would also give players something to present to people trying to help them understand what exactly they need to work on.

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And it wouldn't really reward the people who need it the most. If you reward the best 10 players based on their performance, those are the 10 least likely to actually need better gear. Try to run Siege of Orgrimmar now and be one of the top 10 if you only have enough gear to get into the raid. There are people who do heroic raids, who have heroic gear that still step into LFR and they are doing massive amounts of DPS. They would get better gear while not needing it, and the guys who need it will never be able to beat the top guys, because they have it harder to get better gear.

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Whether something is purple or blue doesn't matter. If it's the same item level it has the same stats.

It isn't about the stats, it is about the mental precedent that gets set. You spend 90 levels(30+ hours) learning a system where green is easily attainable, blue comes at the cost of time and effort and purples are incredibly rare. Then you reach level 90 and forget greens they are gone, they don't matter. Blues barely matter at all and everything just turns purple.

This precedent is horrible it implies that when you reach max level purples will just be thrown at you, if we are going to have colours to begin with they may as well actually mean something. Catch-up mechanics like Timeless Isle should reward Blue gear(without a slight change in stats) to stay consistent with the 90 level gearing model, raiding(including LFR) should give purples that way players have a better subconscious understanding that purples actually require a more significant commitment then questing and aoeing dungeons.

Otherwise get rid of the colours because they only serve to confuse new players and set false precedents in people's minds specifically new players. I don't give a damn about stats but if we are going to have a colour system it should be properly defined and stay consistent and currently it is not consistent.

Do you know how much of an uproar people would be in over something as little as blizzard stating "Okay guys Legendaries are no longer Orange, they just have a higher ilvl." My first instinct would be to think "better stay off the forums for awhile." I wouldn't care if they did but a huge portion of the community would and don't underestimate that.

E.G. look how pissed off people are about not being able to fly for ~ 2 months.

[Strakha]

I think they should do it differently.
Green = Everything outside of dungeons and long quest chains.
Blue = Everything in dungeons, battlegrounds, rare drops, zone wide quest chains.
Purple = Everything in Arena and Raids

[cbeefman]

I think they should do it differently.
Green = Everything outside of dungeons and long quest chains.
Blue = Everything in dungeons, battlegrounds, rare drops, zone wide quest chains.
Purple = Everything in Arena and Raids

i sort of like that idea but have one question, where would crafted gear land?
perhaps put it in whichever category the materials come from?

[Strakha]

i sort of like that idea but have one question, where would crafted gear land?
perhaps put it in whichever category the materials come from?

yeah it would be nice to get 5man dungeon mats for blue craft, random world drops from mob for green crafted, and raid drops like nether vortex were in SSC for epic crafting.

also legendary would continue to be legendary

[Vetis]

i think its clear that at this point in the game, ilvl has replaced text colour as the "elite feeling" factor. Im just lost as to why other peoples gear matters so much.

[Yimereh]

I think they should do it differently.
Green = Everything outside of dungeons and long quest chains.
Blue = Everything in dungeons, battlegrounds, rare drops, zone wide quest chains.
Purple = Everything in Arena and Raids

I agree, it sets a logical precedent in the minds of players and people will have a rational way of knowing where to get their gear from and why theirs isn't a certain colour quality.

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i sort of like that idea but have one question, where would crafted gear land?
perhaps put it in whichever category the materials come from?

I believe you did a great job answering your own question there, I certainly agree with it.

[Tychus]

When are you people going to understand that the color of the name of our items doesn't matter?

Players don't care if an item is grey, white, green, blue, purple or orange. Players are going to wear whichever item gives the most stats and empowers their character the most. Stop fixating on trivial things like the color of some words.

As an answer to Rhorle's post not really understanding what I was trying to get across the above will do fine.

That's a description of normative behavior. Further, it's also descriptive of why people bring it up. If, at this point, there is no relevance to uncommon/rare/epic/legendary, why do such categories even exist? Nobody disagrees that the notion of "item quality" has been diluted and doesn't mean much. The discussion here is how meaning can be reestablished. Nobody is simply "fixated on the color" - color is just a vehicle, the color itself doesn't matter.

This wouldn't work unless fights were made so generic that they would all fit into a system such as this. Classes would have to be the same as well.

Not at all; the sensible thing would be for class specs to be rated against themselves, not everyone that can perform a role - as well as average item level (or it may be possible to just normalize a score against average item level).

inevitably inequities would creep in due to variance in fight mechanics and people learning how to cheese the system to their best advantage, no matter the damage to the group in doing so.

The thing with "cheesing" is that it will be accounted for in metrics. If people find a way ("clever use of mechanics") to start doing a lot of damage, for example, the averages go up. The things is, everything is known - damage taken, healing received, cooldowns activated...wipe or success.

[Sansnom]

Current Model
If you have Blue Gear - Congratulations you are past level 15 and developing your character towards max level
If you have Purple Gear- Congratulations you hit level 90, you may or may not be raiding
If you have Orange Gear - Congratulations you've committed a substantial amount of time, skill and energy to acquire it

Proposed Model
If you have Blue Gear - Congratulations you are past level 15 and developing your character towards max level
If you have Purple Gear- Congratulations you have spent a Reasonable amount of Time, Skill and Energy Raiding to acquire it
If you have Orange Gear - Congratulations you've committed a substantial amount of time, skill and energy to acquire it

You can freely apply all of this to PvP as well as I stand by this system their too.

Feel free to discuss =)

I suggest to just remove them all together. Maybe just have one color for PvE and another for PvP. Keep orange if you want. Get rid of the rest. It worked in the past. It is not working now. The color and the name "epic" has been the cause of such arguments that it is probably better to just remove it all together. It no serves any purpose.

Then maybe we will no longer have any more of these "welfare epics" arguments anymore.

[MoanaLisa]

Not at all; the sensible thing would be for class specs to be rated against themselves, not everyone that can perform a role - as well as average item level (or it may be possible to just normalize a score against average item level).

The thing with "cheesing" is that it will be accounted for in metrics. If people find a way ("clever use of mechanics") to start doing a lot of damage, for example, the averages go up. The things is, everything is known - damage taken, healing received, cooldowns activated...wipe or success.

But develop a complicated system that takes all of that into account just for Raid Finder? What's the point? And why is it needed really? It's not like it's the most valuable gear in the game. It's stopover gear for those moving into flex. And if people have no intention of progressing beyond Raid Finder then they are largely irrelevant to everyone else who progresses past that point. The requirements to develop such a system are all out of proportion to the actual need.

It seems to work well in sports, now of course sometimes stats aren't always 100% indicative of performance but they are certainly fairly accurate.

Most sports have the same rules for each game within the sport. That allows metrics. Raid fights have different conditions, different players with different levels of gear and different capabilities, different buffs, different rules for each fight. Rigid metrics that will work across all fights are neither required nor even feasible unless you wish to make the raid fight a completely generic stand up DPS race and then compare actual performance to theoretical. In that case you might as well reward gear from training dummies. If it were so easily done someone would have done it by now. They haven't because it isn't.

[ripponesan]

While you got some Points there, especially with the confusion of the Speed of the gear process, i suspect the Problem itself is based on another more subtile reason.
One of the main Problems of Humanity i´d say, and the main reason why communism wont work, but still People get to the idea.

Everyone wants to be Special, have something more than his neighbour, something to Show off.
WHILE Feeling entitled to have the "Specials" of others as well, cause that would be how it should.
Everyone wants those epics, but to feel Special you also want others NOT to have them.

Well Substitute everyone with "almost everyone or at least a majority".

[Darmalus]

I'm really in favor of just making ALL gear with stats on it green, just due to the endless whining from people like the OP.

That, or make color indicate what stats it has.

Green: Primary stats only (Str/Int/Agl)
Blue: Secondary Stats (Spirit, haste, crit, mastery, + new ones)
Purple: Bonus teritery stats (gem slot, speed, avoidance, etc.)

Then you would have a reason to get excited about an epic, because it might have a gem slot or something.

Also, Cosmetic armor needs it's own gear color.

[Tychus]

Im just lost as to why other peoples gear matters so much.

It's possible that some might feel that way, but to me, this response demonstrates a strawman fallacy. It's not "other people's gear" in the sense that exclusion is desired. I don't think anyone cares if literally everyone had epics (in the sense epic was originally intended to be) - if they got those epics (the symbology, not just the color) the same way. Though the more competitive might seek other avenues to s

Put another way, what if everyone got challenge mode armor sets...without doing challenge modes? The entire notion RPGs (interpersonal/social RP aspects aside) is character progression and development. If a character acquires the symbols and artifacts of progression and development, without any actual progression and development...you erode an important part of the entire exercise.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

It isn't bad for the community, the community just cares too damn much about the color of the text...

[Darmalus]

The entire notion RPGs (interpersonal/social RP aspects aside) is character progression and development. If a character acquires the symbols and artifacts of progression and development, without any actual progression and development...you erode an important part of the entire exercise.

Yet they are progressing their character. My alts worked their way through LFR, growing in power (gear), defeating bosses and doing quests. It's their progression path.

Why does the COLOR of their gear matter so much to you?

[Tychus]

But develop a complicated system that takes all of that into account just for Raid Finder? What's the point? And why is it needed really?

It's not really; just a cool idea.

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Why does the COLOR of their gear matter so much to you?

The color of the gear of your alts doesn't matter to me.

[GennGreymane]

People enjoy a goal. Epics to many is a goal, but there is no real journey to said goal. Hit 90, do some timeless and viola. I am willing to bet the color is not what really matters, but the journey to get said item. What they did to get that color item.

[Deleted]

It seems to work well in sports, now of course sometimes stats aren't always 100% indicative of performance but they are certainly fairly accurate. Blizzard should easily be able to calculate someones max stationary DPS based on spec and gear and the average % DPS of each individual boss fight for a class/spec. Fire and things of the sort that are avoidable should also come into the mix, based on the % of avoidable damage your took out of the total relevant avoidable damage(meaning fire 50 yards away isn't relevant). Factoring in a class' ability to self mitigate and mitigate damage for others. Effective use of proactive cooldowns(realistically by the end of a boss fight you should have used every offensive cooldown at least once during appropriate times). I'm not saying this would be easy to implement but long-term there isn't any reason why some kind of incentive system can't be rationally implemented that is fair for someone who is doing LFR. I'm not talking Nazi strict either just a threshold that is realistically attainable.

You could give a weekly progress comparison to demonstrate to players where they have improved and what they could have done better. This would also give players something to present to people trying to help them understand what exactly they need to work on.

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It isn't about the stats, it is about the mental precedent that gets set. You spend 90 levels(30+ hours) learning a system where green is easily attainable, blue comes at the cost of time and effort and purples are incredibly rare. Then you reach level 90 and forget greens they are gone, they don't matter. Blues barely matter at all and everything just turns purple.

This precedent is horrible it implies that when you reach max level purples will just be thrown at you, if we are going to have colours to begin with they may as well actually mean something. Catch-up mechanics like Timeless Isle should reward Blue gear(without a slight change in stats) to stay consistent with the 90 level gearing model, raiding(including LFR) should give purples that way players have a better subconscious understanding that purples actually require a more significant commitment then questing and aoeing dungeons.

Otherwise get rid of the colours because they only serve to confuse new players and set false precedents in people's minds specifically new players. I don't give a damn about stats but if we are going to have a colour system it should be properly defined and stay consistent and currently it is not consistent.

Do you know how much of an uproar people would be in over something as little as blizzard stating "Okay guys Legendaries are no longer Orange, they just have a higher ilvl." My first instinct would be to think "better stay off the forums for awhile." I wouldn't care if they did but a huge portion of the community would and don't underestimate that.

E.G. look how pissed off people are about not being able to fly for ~ 2 months.

No one is confused about the colors. The colors are fine the way they are. I still don't get what you want to change. You want to make it harder for people to get purple items but you say the stats don't matter, you just want the purple-colored things to be rare... why? If Blizzard changed a bunch of purple things to blue, and made sure the purple things were harder to get, but the now-blue things still have the same itemlevel as before... who cares? In WotLK there were purple items in heroic 5-mans. In Cataclysm and MoP there aren't. You know what? No one cares. It doesn't make the slightest difference. People want better gear because it makes them stronger, not because they like the color.

[rhorle]

As an answer to Rhorle's post not really understanding what I was trying to get across the above will do fine.

I understood your post. You mentioned how moving from Epic to green is jarring and doesn't make sense when a new expansion launches but then state how color doesn't matter. You contradicted yourself and then refuse to answer directly. I explained how color does matter because it is much more then just seperating items into different colors.

Item Quality has an effect on the Item Budget and that effect is reflected through various item colors. You could do away with that but then you would have to increase the item levels more then is needed if you had an item quality value. Item quality is boosting the item level of an item with out actually changing the item level. So you can remain at certain item levels for an expansion but still offer weaker (or stronger) items.

This allows blizzard to stick to one formula for item design but make weaker or stronger items of the same item level. So a legendary item isn't simply +100 item levels. Item quality serves a purpose but the actual colors the quality is doesn't matter. You need to follow your own advice, and that of the person you said is responding for you.

So stop fixating on trivial things like the color of some words, and fixate on the effect of item quality on budgets and item design.