Blizzard is making heroics harder than MoP : Good or Bad?

[Enosh]

can't wait for WoD

this is going to be an epic train wreck

[Slant]

LoL...that's a really good point honestly. I never really thought of that before. I'm all for the harder heroics but I don't like the free 90...and the 2 really don't go well together. To this day I still think it's dumb as hell that DKs get the first 55 levels for free. That makes absolutely no sense.

Weeeell, the intention of the Free 90 is for old returning players rejoining their buddies. So I assume you need an existing account with probably a couple of chars present already that you can then pump up to 90. So I figure it does make sense under that pretext.

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Harder heroics + random group = fail
I really dislike having to create a party for short/small content. It takes longer then actually doing it.(my server is dead as f'k)

You can't tune difficulty around server population. They need to address server population, however. Mine is dead, too.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind WoD will actually have normal dungeons at level cap, so yes there will be an alternative now to heroics. So basically if you don't want to do heroics do normal dungeons instead. LFR and Heroics drop similar gear levels and will prepare you for normal raiding.

I think you misunderstood the system. In Mists, some dungeons didn't have a normal mode since they were available only at lvl 90 (Gate of the setting sun for example).
Afterwards they added a normal mode for them at lvl 88ish, just to justify that heroics were just normals at max level.
The system will return to a WotLK system, with some normal along the leveling, and some at max level, like Utgarde Pinnacle was.
So no, normal won't be an alternative to heroics, since there will be less normal than heroics (probably a lot less).

Scenarios --> Prepare you for normal dungeons.

Scenarii doesn't prepare you for normal dungeons, they are an alternative.

Normal Dungeons --> Prepare you for LFR and Heroics

I seriously doubt you will be able to engage in LFR directly from normals, but we'll see.

Heroic Scenarios --> Prepare you for LFR and Heroics -Requires Pre-made group.

Same as before, Heroic Scenarii don't prepare you for Heroics, they are an alternative.

LFR--> Prepare you for Heroics and Normal Raiding.

... you really think a 25man content would be built to prepare for 5man content ?
Different sizes exist for different needs and different people, people that like 5man don't want to do 25man content to "prepare".

Heroics --> Prepare you for Normal Raiding and Challange Mode. -Requires Pre-made group.

We'll see about this, but I don't see them throwing away the LFD. Heroics, in my opinion, won't require a pre-made group, because it will be main content for people that don't want to raid, and they don't want to spend their time spamming trade...

Challange Mode --> Prepare you for Normal Raiding and Mythic. -Requires Pre-made group. (Probably will only drop heroic Ilvl loot.)

They said they are happy with where Challenge is for now, so I seriously doubt they will change it. So it will probably stay out of the gearing process, with no loot, and targeted at HL players that want a "Challenge". It doesn't prepare you for anything.

Normal Raiding -->Has a flex feature installed, harder than LFR but easier than Mythic.

Mythic Raiding --> Most Difficult Raiding difficulty.

You forgot Heroic raiding between normal and Mythic.


Anyway, yes it's good Heroics are made harder than normal. I was a bit disappointed by Mists heroics.
They said it will be like vortex pinnacle hero pre nerf, which would be fun for a while (at least for the first tier)

[yjmark]

Harder heroics + random group + no communication = fail
I really dislike having to create a party for short/small content. It takes longer then actually doing it.(my server is dead as f'k)

Ftfy

Random is only bad when people refuse to communicate. Having harder heroics may actually create the need for communication, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Akka]

In MoP, the first heroic I did, we were all in greens and a couple blues here and there, nobody knew a single fight, and we just AoE tank/AoE damaged and 1 shot every boss without a clue what they did. Just figured it out mid-fight.

That actually sounds exactly how WotLK "heroics" were at launch.
No CC, run and AoE everything in green gear, and wonder if we had forgotten to switch them to "heroic" mode because we couldn't see the difference with normal mode.

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How about making each step of the progression a challenge at the time of its relevancy, so all of this content that took months to create actually means something?
You people view anything below raiding as a a waste of time and another annoying hurdle to quickly jump over and it's that mentality that ruins this game.

THIS, a million times. And another million again, for good measure.

[Deleted]

There is a very easy solution to making heroics hard. Blizz has to make normal mode dungeons drop items with the item level required to get into LFR. Then have heroics and LFR drop the same item level loot. That way after doing normals you can either do LFR, heroics or both. If you hate LFR do heroics...if you hate heroics do LFR...and there will also be many ppl that enjoy both....everyone is happy.

[Notos]

That actually sounds exactly how WotLK "heroics" were at launch.
No CC, run and AoE everything in green gear, and wonder if we had forgotten to switch them to "heroic" mode because we couldn't see the difference with normal mode.

Heroics may have been faceroll in naxx gear, but in blues and greens they were definitely not an aoe fest. Most bosses were easy (also mostly true of BC /shrug) but some of the trash could seriously mess you up.

Anyways, even with harder heroics in WoD, people will just outgear them with LFR/normal mode raid gear within weeks and we'll get new waves of crying about them being too easy. Raiding accessibility has made them rather obsolete as a form of challenging content.

[kamuimac]

I fail to see any real major benefits in having hard heroics dungeon. Why? Seriously why? You want a challenge? Why not do the challenge mode or some other form where the gear is normalized. If it is hard, then it becomes a barrierto gearing. Not just the average or bad players, but possibly for good players.

why most of goodp layers think its the good thing ? cause then maybe people will learn something instead whine how nobody want to take them to flex even thou they do amazing 80k dps - hard hc dungeons are important - its is really important even if players refuse to see it - theywill have alternative - normal mode dungeons which most probably will give them acces to the new "lfr spectator mode" but if they want anything more - well then hc dungeons is their best friend so that they learn how to play in smaller closer enviroment - with their guild friends so that nobody judges them

the best thing which imo blizz could do with it is to fiorce people to first make a premade gorup and then they will be able to que for it just liek for hc scenarios - then nobody will be harsh on them they could go in their own pace - no lfd shit for this .

and no chalenge modes dont offer a a shit pve progress wise and are mostly ignored - decently tuned hard hc dungeons are vital part so that there was way less shitstorm of rage and "retards" in lfr/flex - it will be only better for community - and if they cant handle this ? well then they will have normal dungeons.

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I fail to see any real major benefits in having hard heroics dungeon. Why? Seriously why? You want a challenge? Why not do the challenge mode or some other form where the gear is normalized. If it is hard, then it becomes a barrierto gearing. Not just the average or bad players, but possibly for good players.

why most of goodp layers think its the good thing ? cause then maybe people will learn something instead whine how nobody want to take them to flex even thou they do amazing 80k dps - hard hc dungeons are important - its is really important even if players refuse to see it - theywill have alternative - normal mode dungeons which most probably will give them acces to the new "lfr spectator mode" but if they want anything more - well then hc dungeons is their best friend so that they learn how to play in smaller closer enviroment - with their guild friends so that nobody judges them

the best thing which imo blizz could do with it is to fiorce people to first make a premade gorup and then they will be able to que for it just liek for hc scenarios - then nobody will be harsh on them they could go in their own pace - no lfd shit for this .

and no chalenge modes dont offer a a shit pve progress wise and are mostly ignored - decently tuned hard hc dungeons are vital part so that there was way less shitstorm of rage and "retards" in lfr/flex - it will be only better for community - and if they cant handle this ? well then they will have normal dungeons.

[Santoryu]

The problem started in Wrath of the Lich King. Blizzard single handedly made the player base worse by making most of the content so forgiving or excessively nerfing it. Had they stuck with the BC model we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Kurgulok]

With LFD, we'll have the same problem as the beginning of Cata. People will be too used to the Loot Pinata Heroics that you just walkthrough and finish in 5 minutes. I find it EXTREMELY hard to explain tactics to idiots in LFD, and morons who ninja pull everything and who say 'Go, go, go, go" when every trash pull will require planning and usage of your brain, just like in TBC (Oh how I love that trash pull just before Kael in MGT, but boy did I wipe it on it for an hour solid).

People will want to do heroics, and they will want quick and easy loot. The difficulty Blizz want for Heroics is too much for current players, and it'll just get nerfed 1-2 months after release. Rinse and repeat, exactly like Cata.

[Ikkarus]

It would be interesting but I don't understand blizzards concept of "hard", they should balance things, if the mobs are dangerous and hard to kill they shouldn't put hundreads of them in the same room like Grim Batol (Without mention that the dungeon was huge), this isn't hard, this is annoying..From my point of view Zul'gurub was the most balanced Dungeon from the last expansions..

[Skarssen]

There should be some really, really challenging stuff in the game. Not everyone is meant to do and see everything.

Agreed, but if they do this, the LFR crowd will complain and eventually win.

The only way this works is if they set aside a couple of instances and designate them as "hard" or what not, and remove them from LFD queue. If they make hard 5-mans and include them in the LFD the QQ storm will be deafening.

[Giscoicus]

The problem started in Wrath of the Lich King. Blizzard single handedly made the player base worse by making most of the content so forgiving or excessively nerfing it. Had they stuck with the BC model we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This times a million. People look back on Wrath with such fondness, all I see is crap. Heroics were super easy, they took badge-gear to a whole new level. Old raids revamped meant simple mechanics since they were tuned to be a clusterfuck of 40, not 10/25. ToGC was dull, just grinding bosses all night long. ICC was interesting somewhat, mostly because of AVR, but again it was way too long and way to easy. Mount fights were awful, and while Ulduar was a great looking raid, unless you had the hardmode on it was a joke. Flame leviathan without towers up? Totally ridiculous. LFG was added which caused even more issues, and because Blizzard gave guilds the option to do 10M and get stuff easy, 10M fell apart in Cata and 25M no longer had much incentive.

If Wrath hadn't been so damn easy for absolutely everything outside of a handful of fights, Cata wouldn't have been nerfed so much and ruined in the span of two patches. Wrath gave everybody everything on a silver platter because Blizzard had a larger and more diverse playerbase they wanted to make happy, and when they tried to change that back to how it was before the flood gates broke and people left the game in troves.

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Agreed, but if they do this, the LFR crowd will complain and eventually win.

The only way this works is if they set aside a couple of instances and designate them as "hard" or what not, and remove them from LFD queue. If they make hard 5-mans and include them in the LFD the QQ storm will be deafening.

The LFR crowd has been torn apart by Flex. They no longer are 50% of the playerbase, many have abandoned the terrible mode.

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It would be interesting but I don't understand blizzards concept of "hard", they should balance things, if the mobs are dangerous and hard to kill they shouldn't put hundreads of them in the same room like Grim Batol (Without mention that the dungeon was huge), this isn't hard, this is annoying..From my point of view Zul'gurub was the most balanced Dungeon from the last expansions..

Grim Batol wasnt too hard with a premade though. You had 5 drakes and 2 passes, you were meant to kill most of the trash on the drakes. Half the time you went it there would be 1-2 drakes that werent even mounted before the group started pulling.

Grim Batol was meant for you to kill hundreds of cultists on the drakes then clear out the bosses. The only trash you should have fought is up to the drakes, around the forge, and down the stairs to the last boss. But players were too terrible to use the dragons.

[Osmeric]

Afterwards they added a normal mode for them at lvl 88ish, just to justify that heroics were just normals at max level.
The system will return to a WotLK system, with some normal along the leveling, and some at max level, like Utgarde Pinnacle was.
So no, normal won't be an alternative to heroics, since there will be less normal than heroics (probably a lot less).

Actually... have they said that ANY of these new normal mode dungeons won't be at level 100?

[Kryos]

It would be cool to see a difficulty like Scholomance pre-nerf 5-man or Shattered Halls pre-T5 gear. But they will never do that. It will be a bit difficult when you start with your blue set and once you have lfr T17 it will be a joke again.

[Osmeric]

The problem started in Wrath of the Lich King. Blizzard single handedly made the player base worse by making most of the content so forgiving or excessively nerfing it. Had they stuck with the BC model we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This is bullshit. Wrath didn't make players bad; Wrath just accepted that most players are bad. The history of the game can be seen as one long struggle of the developers to overcome their hardcore biases and misconceptions.

But yes, we wouldn't be having this discussion if they had stuck to the BC model, since the game would have died.

[Senathor]

That's great. HC's at the beginning of Cataclysm were just perfect, I hope it's about the same next expansion.

[Raiju]

This is bullshit. Wrath didn't make players bad; Wrath just accepted that most players are bad. The history of the game can be seen as one long struggle of the developers to overcome their hardcore biases and misconceptions.

But yes, we wouldn't be having this discussion if they had stuck to the BC model, since the game would have died.

Evidence where? Either you argue product lifecycle and that neither the easy mode or difficult mode largely affected subs, or you say the difficult content caused sub loss, but have to accept the easy content caused substantially more sub loss.

[Dvaldin]

Due to randomized grouping, by making Heroic Dungeons more difficult they'll be creating the LFR experience in a 5-man setting. So...yeah. I don't know why in the heck anybody wants that.

[Deleted]

Actually... have they said that ANY of these new normal mode dungeons won't be at level 100?

In http://us.battle.net//wow/en/blog/11499600, they said :

. To that end we’re going to bring back max-level “Normal” dungeons, which—along with Scenarios—will help bridge the gap between level-up quest gear and Heroic dungeons. As Heroics won’t be the first thing you jump into at level 100, it also gives us some room to make Heroic dungeon content a bit more difficult.

It shows that at least some Normal will be lvl 100.

On some websites that covered Blizzcon panels like http://www.tentonhammer.com/wow/guid...tances-preview, they said that 4 of the 7 dungeons will be for levelling, and that the 3 remaining (including UBRS) will be max level dungeons.
BUT three dungeons is not enough to say that is endgame.
These are just stepping stone to heroic dungeons.