My suggestions to fix LFR

[Itisamuh]

I don't think you understand why tanks and to some extent healers don't want to play with random people. Giving them extra perks wouldn't solve anything, and would be unfair to everyone else to boot.

[britishbubba]

And how is gear rewards and achievements and pets part of seeing the content? Don't throw around that excuse, people do LFR for the gear, save for a few who resub, clear it once and leave again. Those players are there at the start of the patch, aside from a handful of new players LFR 3 months down the road is people after gear.

None of this invalidates the point that the driving purpose behind LFR was to allow people that don't have the desire to schedule time to raid, to see the content.

Actually, as stacks increase tanking tends to be somewhat harder, same with healing. No tank swap means there are no mechanics like that so tanking is completely static. No cooldown management needed. Imagine tanking Norushen without the debuff.

I completely disregard the debuff on heroic norushen. It's an irrelevant debuff. You use AM for the Unleashed anger regardless of the amount of stacks you have. What am I going to do "oh damn, this 10 stack unleashed anger is about to hit me. I'll hit purifying brew TWICE this time, that'll show him." Our paladin just hits SoTR on the night he tanks the boss. The only tank "swap" mechanic that forces you to blow CDs in SoO is the one on Siegecrafter, and that's just because you're preserving your stacks to kill the shredders faster.

And please healing becomes harder? Every tank (except warrior) does the vast majority of the healing done to them. My top heal that I take that's not from myself in raid? Beacon of light. And it's 70%+ overheal.

You don't have to heal the tank more because they're taking more damage, because the self healing that they have increases with that damage intake. I guess if you're only raiding with people that don't know half these abilities exist, then you might need to have more healing pumped into you. But that just means you suck at tanking in MoP.

Fine, if people do LFR only to see content, they could nerf it to the ground like you suggested, but also remove/nerf loot.

That's not what I said.

[Drekmar]

That's not what I said.

The entire point of LFR is to show people the content. Void Zone #19874635 is not content.

According to you LFR is only for seeing content, therefore no gear is needed.

[britishbubba]

According to you LFR is only for seeing content, therefore no gear is needed.

Yes. The entire intended point of LFR (from a perspective of blizzard) was to allow people to see content. No where in their initial announcement of it did they say "it's here so you can see content at the cost of no gear."

What you said was:

Fine, if people do LFR only to see content, they could nerf it to the ground like you suggested, but also remove/nerf loot.

I didn't say people did it to see the content. I said the point of it (from a design perspective) was to allow people to see content.

So I'll say it again. I'm not saying what you seem to think I'm saying.

[Drekmar]

Yes. The entire intended point of LFR (from a perspective of blizzard) was to allow people to see content. No where in their initial announcement of it did they say "it's here so you can see content at the cost of no gear."

I have absolutely no problem with LFR being just for seeing content without awarding gear.

[Traveler Voltin]

The entire point of LFR is to show people the content. Void Zone #19874635 is not content.

not anymore. did you miss the part where blizzard said its for seeing content AND gearing up

[britishbubba]

not anymore. did you miss the part where blizzard said its for seeing content AND gearing up

If you have a link to the source of them saying that feel free to share it and I'll change my point of view.

I have absolutely no problem with LFR being just for seeing content without awarding gear.

As much as I enjoy this, it's not even relevant to my original point of saying LFR is to see the content (which I said when referencing the removal of mechanics from LFR as things like defile do not actually add to the fight in terms of seeing the content). I don't care how you feel about getting loot from LFR, I offered my perspective on how you could make queue times faster, and the only ways blizzard could FORCE that would be:

A) increase the amount of tanks and healers queueing through some form of incentive which will just cause DPSers to bitch up a storm about how it's not fair that they don't get those incentives.
B) cut down the amount of tanks and healers that you need for a queue to complete.
C) Remove tanks and healers as a requirement Scenario style.

Personally I think B is the best and most realistic.

[Giscoicus]

I agree with what you're saying, but penalizing under-performing players in raids that were explicitly designed to be completed by under-performing players as the OP suggests has nothing to do with that.

Where did Blizzard ever suggest the raids were made for bad players? LFR functions because good players carry the group. The only reason it has been nerfed is because those who are competent cannot spend 4 hours trying to babysit the other 15 players.

[Sansnom]

I have absolutely no problem with LFR being just for seeing content without awarding gear.

You probably raid flexi/normal/heroic right? Why deny LFR raiders gear? Would it be okay to remove gear from flex? normal? heroic? Just have an achievement to say you completed the appropriate level of raiding?

How is LFR raiders getting LFR gear causing problems for flex/normal/heroic raiders?

They don't deserve it? Who appointed any of us as judges on who deserve gears and who doesn't?

[Giscoicus]

not anymore. did you miss the part where blizzard said its for seeing content AND gearing up

And it is. But on the flipside people need to stop using the "don't like it don't do it" bullshit when Blizzard admits it is part of the gearing path.

[Drekmar]

You probably raid flexi/normal/heroic right? Why deny LFR raiders gear? Would it be okay to remove gear from flex? normal? heroic? Just have an achievement to say you completed the appropriate level of raiding?

How is LFR raiders getting LFR gear causing problems for flex/normal/heroic raiders?

They don't deserve it? Who appointed any of us as judges on who deserve gears and who doesn't?

I was refering to that guys statement to nerf LFR because its only for seeing content, not for gear.

So tell me, are you doing LFR for seeing content or getting gear?

[Ronduwil]

If you don't remember raids having 8-10 people dying to Hour of Twilight and then his unstable ticks getting too high to heal through, then you had really good groups. Yea he didn't have a hard enrage but the soft enrage was enough for plenty of groups to kick the bad players.

Honestly, DS LFR was no picnic either. I remember a group of players who deliberately rolled spine while a single mage ice blocked. From there the mage spammed AoE indefinitely to kill bloods. That way he could remain in combat and not be kicked. There was another genius who teleported back to Stormwind, entered Stockades, pulled, and went AFK. He was permanently in combat and could not be kicked. The reason you remember DS so fondly was that you were most likely one of those arbiters of loot who rolled need on everything and held it hostage for a "deserving" player or vendored it as you saw fit. In a way I think that system was actually better because it gave players the illusion of control over who did and didn't get loot. In reality the loot rates were effectively much higher in those days, but the perception now is that any idiot can collect loot by AFKing. You couldn't AFK your way to loot back then, and you're still not going to AFK your way to loot now.

[Giscoicus]

You probably raid flexi/normal/heroic right? Why deny LFR raiders gear? Would it be okay to remove gear from flex? normal? heroic? Just have an achievement to say you completed the appropriate level of raiding?

How is LFR raiders getting LFR gear causing problems for flex/normal/heroic raiders?

They don't deserve it? Who appointed any of us as judges on who deserve gears and who doesn't?

More like Blizzard can't control themselves around set bonuses, an running LFR is part of optomization for many, something they don't want to do. It's a choice between being the best you can be, and staying out of LFR. Really prior to the need the LFR UVLS was still one of the top trinkets for demo warlocks, better than heroic siege trinkets. Nobody running heroic siege should have any reason to be in a LFR, even still trinkets/tier are there.

Add a shared loot lockout between all difficulties or something. Hell up until a group was 12/12, players would want to be in LFR ToT for legendaries. Honestly I don't know what they could do so raiders have no reason to be there, but removing tier/trinkets could be a start.

Also the accessibility of gear has caused item level inflation. With 536+608 gear being through LFR many pugs raise their requirements even higher, and there is a greater gear desparity. Also quick purples means a abundance of crystals from disenchantment driving down the price, but that is more of a personal complaint

[Traveler Voltin]

And it is. But on the flipside people need to stop using the "don't like it don't do it" bullshit when Blizzard admits it is part of the gearing path.

well technically you dont have to do LFR to do normal raids. it just makes things easier if you do. which people like easy things.

[Ronduwil]

I have absolutely no problem with LFR being just for seeing content without awarding gear.

Cool. I have no problem with Normal and Heroic raids only dropping transmog gear like challenge modes either. In fact, let's just do away with gear altogether and make abilities purely level based. That's actually my personal preference. Fortunately for Blizzard they decide what most players like and what you and I are "have absolutely no problem with" doesn't matter in the slightest.

[Osmeric]

Also quick purples means a abundance of crystals from disenchantment driving down the price, but that is more of a personal complaint

That's more driven by Timeless Isle at this point, I think.

[Giscoicus]

Honestly, DS LFR was no picnic either. I remember a group of players who deliberately rolled spine while a single mage ice blocked. From there the mage spammed AoE indefinitely to kill bloods. That way he could remain in combat and not be kicked. There was another genius who teleported back to Stormwind, entered Stockades, pulled, and went AFK. He was permanently in combat and could not be kicked. The reason you remember DS so fondly was that you were most likely one of those arbiters of loot who rolled need on everything and held it hostage for a "deserving" player or vendored it as you saw fit. In a way I think that system was actually better because it gave players the illusion of control over who did and didn't get loot. In reality the loot rates were effectively much higher in those days, but the perception now is that any idiot can collect loot by AFKing. You couldn't AFK your way to loot back then, and you're still not going to AFK your way to loot now.

More like the fact that doing something stupid like rolling Deathwing actually wiped groups. What does an Ironstar do, 250k?or is that the entirely obvious Falling Ash that has a 15 second warning? I'm not complaining about the loot system I'm complaining about the difficulty.

You most definitely can afk to loot. Look at a fight like Galakras, they can't afk there?

[Ronduwil]

Where did Blizzard ever suggest the raids were made for bad players?

I'm sounding like a broken record here. It's in their Raid Finder Q&A:

Raid Finder will match players up to form a 25-player raid. This allows for a more forgiving experience should errors be made by individual players. Raid Finder groups should be a fun way to experience raid content without feeling too punishing to inexperienced raiders.

Good players don't make errors. When errors are made in normal and heroic raids, the entire group wipes. When was the last time you raided?

[Drekmar]

Cool. I have no problem with Normal and Heroic raids only dropping transmog gear like challenge modes either. In fact, let's just do away with gear altogether and make abilities purely level based. That's actually my personal preference. Fortunately for Blizzard they decide what most players like and what you and I are "have absolutely no problem with" doesn't matter in the slightest.

Again, I was just refering to that previous guys statement that LFR is for seeing content and not for gearing up.

That's more driven by Timeless Isle at this point, I think.

Timeless Isle is just like adding oil to the fire. Theres just too much epic items.

[Giscoicus]

Cool. I have no problem with Normal and Heroic raids only dropping transmog gear like challenge modes either. In fact, let's just do away with gear altogether and make abilities purely level based. That's actually my personal preference. Fortunately for Blizzard they decide what most players like and what you and I are "have absolutely no problem with" doesn't matter in the slightest.

Because doing slow progression on a boss just barely beating the enrage EVERY WEEK is fun. Sorry, not even top guilds have 50 hours a week. Gear is part of progression. Down a boss get gear the boss is easier next time so that you can get to bosses you are actually progressing on. I don't think top guilds would be interested in still doing kills during enrages 6 weeks later.