Demon hunter vs tinker/ alchemist class

[Deleted]

You're using a lot of big words, but essentially all your post comes down to is "I don't agree with you."

You have yet to provide good counter arguments.

And look at you, thinking you know a lot and criticizing people with their ideas and opinions when in the fact, you are just talky talking without saying anything worthy.

Your comment on my Demon hunter idea?? You made laugh.

You didnt understand anything that was there, you didnt read the abilities and you refuse to go out of your own preconceptions.

[Yig]

At the least I wish Dark Apotheosis didn't look like tiny little costume wings you'd see a child wearing at an unholy Christmas Pageant. The miniature wings make it look ridiculous next to actual demon hunters or Metamorphosis. I feel like I'm in a mass produced demon hunter halloween suit from a department store with those little wings on, or some emo goth girl wearing fake wings and a tiara to a rave. I guess that's due to overlap with assets from the succubus model.

For now this is my best attempt at a demon hunter allowed in game I suppose to actually play and feel something akin to Warcraft 3's essence. A shame I have to play two different classes in my wannabe-ness.

[Yig]

You're using a lot of big words, but essentially all your post comes down to is "I don't agree with you."

You have yet to provide good counter arguments.

You just demonstrated you're unable to gauge what a "good argument" even is. My entire point was their argument was not an argument because it amounted to nothing more than "I dont' agree with you", and you absurdly just claimed me pointing that out was nothing more than me saying "I don't agree with you." Do you see how ridiculous that is?

My arguments have all been pretty basic, and come down to one thing. You're unable to look beyond what you personally think is a "good idea" or not and actually entertain a point of view you don't share. This makes you a waste of time to interact with beyond the value you're giving the forum as an educational example of how not to try to argue with someone, unless you'd like to sit and think about how absurd your last post was to me.

Again and again this needs to be pointed out it seems, but the only objections here are subjective opinions over what warrants being cool and important enough for Blizzard to expand a class around. That big word I used, subjective, it means it's not 100% universally true, but it depends only on the opinion or point of view of the person holding the viewpoint. Meaning it's not a valid argument, or counter point at all, it's an opinion.

My only argument is that this is all a bunch of people presenting their opinions as facts, which makes their argument "not good" to put it in vernacular you might have an easier time with.

My side point is that outside of that flawed argument, we just see people who don't like demon hunters at all not wanting them for whatever reason.

Tell me why those are not "good counter arguments". And further, tell me what my intent is to demonstrate with those poor arguments as if you were in my shoes, using my poor arguments. That would take trying to look at my point of view instead of your own, and so far you seem challenged in that department.

To actually show why these arguments I'm challenging are worthy of entertaining, you must demonstrate how you can show a demon hunter is intrinsically and factually a weak theme that isn't as important or as interesting as a paladin or monk or deathknight. That's an absurd position to explore. The best you can do is claim Blizzard's token efforts of giving demon hunter iconography to warlocks are all the evidence you need, but then that same logic would have meant giving rogues demon hunter iconography first before warlocks would have precluded warlocks from ever having a chance or any value in being given demon hunter iconography. So there goes that's argument.

You've been a great help with the demonstration, thank you.

[Teriz]

You can spin doctor anything to support your argument like that, it just shows how low your standards of evidence are and why you are quite literally trapped trying to demonstrate the subjective is intrinsically objective. Your objections are all arbitrary and ignore the precedents they demonstrate when you apply them to previous classes added to the game, those same objections would preclude Deathknights and Monks.

Death Knights and Monks had all of their abilities from WC3. Thus you could establish a theme for their classes that didn't exist in other classes. One is undead, the other is martial arts.

If we seriously look at the Warlock classes, we suddenly notice that all of the WC3 demon-based abilities went to that class. Demon Hunters had demon-based abilities, thus the bulk of their abilities went to the establishment of the Warlock class and theme. All WoW classes follow that model. So if we continue with that model, there's no way a DH class is ever going to be established in the game, because doing so would break the precedent set by earlier class inclusions.

[Deleted]

I cant wrap my head around the want for a DH class which will in essence use the same abilities currently held down by the warlock class.
Anything and Everything a DH has the potential to bring, is already in the game as core abilities for other classes.

This topic would be absurd if this were "I want a blademaster class as seen in WC3!" it wont happen. Do you know why? Because its core abilities are already dished out, bladestorm for one is a beast of a warrior ability now and wont change. The only reason this topic even exists today is because the DH from WC3 was popular. It aint gona happen.


*Side note, i see alot of people saying that immolate is different from the DH spell immolation (as if that alone is a reason to copy a class already in the game), in meta form, hellfire is essentially immolation from WC3 http://www.wowhead.com/spell=109797/

[Deleted]

Starting off: Quest chain to recieve higher power. Class specific quests for any kind of meaningful ability were removed. Not a good start.

its not a quest for meanigful abilities, its a quest for a meaningful gameplay(more than just an ability)

mixing and matching of non-talent related abilities sounds like hybridization, which they removed because it was too hard to balance. Not going to happen.

WHAT?? when was there EVER a mix matching of "non-talent" abilities in WOW?? and are you a dev to say what they will or will not do?

Summon - You mean like summon demon? Like a warlock?

yes. so what?

Chaos talent tree - Multitude of different types of combat and rotations; Cause it's not like they've simplified every spec into a single rotation with the exception of Disc and Fistweavers, which are healing specs.

Void - Serves mostly for survival/PvP; Cause they don't attempt to make every spec viable for PvP these days right? And even if they did, for it to be viable in PvE while also based purely on survival would be overpowered.

Old Gods being related to Demon Hunters; Here, I'll clear that up for you: Demon Hunters have zero relation to old gods. Nada. None. They would gain zero powers from them because they have nothing to do with demons.

about your comment on chaos and void specs? just read the abilities dude... And about old gods and demon hunters? just read again...

Mix and match runes to augment abilities; Too much to balance in a game that has clearly moved towards simpler to balance systems.

I say it could be done without feeling too clunky or too complex.

Tank class using Spirit; Spirit is a healer only stat, as stated by Blizzard. Not going to happen.

whatever. I can just as easily take away the spirit benefits from the class

Soul Thirst; I have no idea what you're even trying to get at here. It is generated by spirit and acts as the mana bar, but also fills three runes that are used for big abilities, but is also used by normal abilities so you must fill the runes fast? It sounds like a mana/energy/combo point combination, but done in a roundabout, way-too-complicated-to-actually-implement way. And now suddenly you're throwing the name Disciple around. You haven't named the specs yet, but I'm just doing to assume that's what it is.

I'm not gonna say again but you should READ THE ABILITIES. The first and basic set of abilities does not cost Soul Thirst but also doesnt really generate it. You have to use your tank skills. Disciple yes. I like it so deal with it.

Fel Shift; Sounds like the Monk's Light/Dark Chi that was first announced for MoP and scrapped due to being way too complicated to deal with, combined with the Warlock's Demonic Fury, making it even MORE complicated.

Its only complicated for dumbs. This bar is only here for you to keep a look out not use too many damaging abilities while tanking. No matter if you are a chaos/order or Void spec, your disciple's spec abilities will be tuned to tank. But when your order spec you are more like a classic well behaved tank with a well defined method. If you are chaos you will be more vengeful and your tanking skills are based on fighting fire with fire but always with a safe side. In Void spec your tanking abilities dont affect so much your enemies but yourself. Its just gameplay flavour.

Fel Energy; So energy. No need to change the color.

Balance & Corruption; So you're a boomkin now, only Balance(Sun power) generates over time and Corruption(Moon Power) degenerates over time. No idea how this would work. Sounds too complicated to implement, considering it would just be abused to hit the highest/lowest point of either one and ignore the other side. Just like Soul Thirst, you've now thrown the name Zealot at us. Zealot implies something holy, like the Scarlet Crusade Zealots. Not really befitting of a Demon Hunter.

lol I dunno why you get so much into the specs names. Do u have nothing better to criticize? Anyway, Balance lets you use your baseline skills, when you use too many, you get Corruption which lets you use the minor combos. When you finish your corruption bar you transform and can use the major combos. no big deal to understand.

Void Bolts; So now you're an Affliction Warlock, only instead of Soul Shards you have Void Bolts. And the third spec is called Jailer I assume, even though Demon Hunters have nothing to do with Jailing aside from the first demon hunter being imprisoned IN a Jail in Warcraft III. (Hint: Wardens would be more likely to have a Jailer spec. Warden's hate Demon Hunters.)

not really no... You are either playing not to understand such a simple thing or I fear for your intelligence...

Nether Spark; Way too complicated. It's like building up combo points, only instead of combo points they're called Void Bolts. And instead of being able to use your combo points at any given time, you can ONLY use it after building up three combo points. And those combo points aren't used when you use your finisher, only your minor abilities, while you MAJOR abilities use your finishers. Might as well just give them combo points and call it a day, instead of making it this complicated.

No because the finishers are you know, finishers... they are much stronger abilities than the baseline so it makes sense that you can only use them after you collect a powerful amount of resource. Which in practice translates to a rogues 6 combo finisher.

Emanations; Supposedly affects the enemies actions, but the very first one you mention only affects the Demon Hunter. Second one is not like a presence/aspect, as it hurts the Demon Hunter for using it. (Not to mention it is the exact same as the Meta form Immolation Aura that Demonology Warlocks already have.) Third one is a free cleanse every 15 seconds and resource regen, but it's labelled as a magic resist aura. These have nothing to do with presences and should really just be cooldowns if anything.

hmm this one I can give it to you. It doesnt mnecessarily meant that it would affect the DH's enemies directly. My bad. I will fix it.

Transformations; Not only are they just cooldowns (the first pretty much being necessary for tanking), but the backfire mechanic leads back to the previous person's problem of 'mind control if you fuck up the secondary resource.' "Guys I used too many order spells and lost my tank buff, wipe it." You can't have random debuff effects on a class. It just can't happen. It would be destructive at the worst of times, and a minor inconvenience when you really need it to not be.

Nope. You dont get debuffed you just dont get the full benefits.

Blind; Having a class be immune to any effect, regardless of how often it is used, is a balance nightmare.

I disagree.

Deconstruction; I like how you knock on Teriz at any given chance, but stole this from his Demon Hunter concept. It is good in theory, but honestly I don't see it happening. (Especially considering you chose to label them as mail armor wearers. If they deconstruct the armor anyway, what's the point?)

This would be na optional feature...

Disciple spec (woohoo, correct guesses!): Doesn't mention anything about how he tanks other than 'dual wield parry.' How does he reduce damage other than parrying? Even a combination of parry and dodge barely keeps Death Knights alive in full plate, but you expect an unarmored demon hunter to survive with just parry?

Jailer spec: Basically dual wield range weapons, but for lower levels they're apparently allowed to dual wield 2h ranged weapons because they need to. So... Diablo. Demon Hunters cannot attack from range. They are a melee based hero. If they ever had a ranged type attack, it would be a demonic spell which is already claimed by Warlocks.

Zealot spec: Transforms his arms to attack? That could be interesting, but again, if he transforms his arms to attack he can't attack from range. And I've already gone into detail about how the Chaos thing you mentioned is just too unpredictable to be worth anything in game.

That's all I'm going to go into for now. The transforming arms is about the only good concept I could find in there so far.

yes, you need to read the abilities

[Bookofblade]

Tank class using Spirit; Spirit is a healer only stat, as stated by Blizzard. Not going to happen.
works just fine for enhancement shamans.

...so enhance uses spirit now? I just...I cant...

[Deleted]

...so enhance uses spirit now? I just...I cant...

haha beat me to it, it really is just......

[Drilnos]

At the least I wish Dark Apotheosis didn't look like tiny little costume wings you'd see a child wearing at an unholy Christmas Pageant. The miniature wings make it look ridiculous next to actual demon hunters or Metamorphosis. I feel like I'm in a mass produced demon hunter halloween suit from a department store with those little wings on, or some emo goth girl wearing fake wings and a tiara to a rave. I guess that's due to overlap with assets from the succubus model.

For now this is my best attempt at a demon hunter allowed in game I suppose to actually play and feel something akin to Warcraft 3's essence. A shame I have to play two different classes in my wannabe-ness.

I can sympathize. I myself have tried to make my druid look like a tinker. It wasn't easy or cheap, and it looks like it's level 25-ish, and I still have to wave my hands around or turn into a cat to do damage, but eh. Why a druid? It's as close to it as any other class is, which is to say, not at all. But at least I can appreciate it while standing around.

If they do ever get around to making DA into a spec instead of a glyph, though, the graphics will get an upgrade. Specs get more resources devoted to them than classes, and DA was a really complicated glyph, mechanics-wise. And if there's any one mechanic that's the most likely to get its own fourth spec, DA is it. Support for warlock tanking ability was extremely, unexpectedly high when they announced it, and those people were mostly disappointed to find out that it didn't really make them a tank.

[Thimagryn]

So to recap:

Warlocks wear light armor. Demon Hunters wear light armor.
Warlocks can fight in melee range. Demon Hunters can fight in melee range.
Warlocks turn into demons. Demon Hunters turn into demons.
Warlocks burn enemies around them with Immolation. Demon Hunters burn enemies around them with Immolation.
Warlocks use demonic magic to fight in melee range. Demon Hunters use demonic magic to fight in melee range.
Warlocks utilize demons to increase their powers. Demon Hunters utilize demons to increase their powers.
Warlocks can equip swords. Demon Hunters can equip swords.
Warlocks apply curses. Demon Hunters apply curses.
Warlocks are shunned by Night Elf society. Demon Hunters are shunned by Night Elf society.

Differences:

Demon Hunters use Warglaives.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Let's start with

Demon Hunters are not Warlocks
Absence of evidence, such as implications that Demon Hunters wear light armor or cast curses.
Broad Generalizations of both classes, such as implying that Warlocks equip Swords and fight in melee the same way DH do.
DH could be accepted back into NE society, especially if the Highborne were accepted back. Warlocks would not.

There are the only two relevant pieces of information that cause any sort of conflict. Comparison of the rest is like comparing Warriors to Death Knights and matching plate-to-plate and sword-to-sword with no real point of conflict. This boils down to two spells that both classes share.

Warlocks turn into demons. Demon Hunters turn into demons.
Warlocks burn enemies around them with Immolation. Demon Hunters burn enemies around them with Immolation.

Which is easily rectified by giving the Demon Hunter 96 new abilities/talents different from the Warlock, as every class gets.

Similarities and overlap are bound to exist within each and every class, it's unavoidable. What's important is knowing what defines a class, which you are conveniently ignoring.

[Traveler Voltin]

Then I ask: What defines a class in your mind?

Theme defines it in my mind, and every theme possible for a Demon Hunter is taken already. So if there's something I'm missing, please feel free to mention it.

paladin: holy warrior
Priest: holy caster

Warlock: fel caster

Demon hunter: demonic warrior or rogue(whatever fits).

yeah not see what you mean.

[Thimagryn]

Then I ask: What defines a class in your mind?

Theme defines it in my mind, and every theme possible for a Demon Hunter is taken already. So if there's something I'm missing, please feel free to mention it.

Isn't that up to the designers, and not me?

I mean, whatever I say you will refute by saying it's not official part of lore, or using an absence of evidence argument, wouldn't you?

I would just as well ask, do you think the Paladin has no reason to exist in Warcraft because its theme is shared by the Priest and Warrior?

[Thimagryn]

If you want an example, then take one I'd written up for the other recent DH thread, as a response to Teriz's challenge of coming up with 3 specs for a non-Warlock Demon Hunter.

Demon Hunters could be themed around Damnation, having a cursed soul from which they draw their powers from. They would bind demonic essence to their soul, but it would be raw fel energy similar to what Blood Elves feed on. They would only draw from a Demonic source of power, not Demons themselves. No summoning, no demonic pacts, no bargaining.

Warlocks do not draw their power from within, they do so externally. Thematically, don't draw their power from their own souls.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post24530123

I don't lack any creative potential, I simply lack patience in having to defend a subject that is constantly being refuted by insubstantial arguments. Circular arguments tire me, so if you wish to refute the example, please do so without falling back on 'lack of authenticity' or 'this never happened'.

[Thimagryn]

Damnation is a theme covered by Death Knights. Cursed souls brought back to life against their will and forced to fight in service of the Lich King; Broken free of his grasp and now fighting to forge a place for themselves in the world. To a lesser extent Warlocks, but I won't get into that as like I said, it's to a lesser extent and far from the theme of warlocks.

Death Knights are not damned by choice, and this is an integral part of the Demon Hunter's theme. They willingly sacrifice themselves to gain untold power, unlike Death Knights who were forced into servitude. On top of this, 'Damnation' specifically refers to the Cursed Soul concept, in which they turn their souls into a living battery of Fel power. This is something unshared by any other class.

Cursed Weaponry is wielded by all kind of characters. If you want to get technical, the sha-touched weapons of Pandaria are cursed with the power of Y'shaarj. Making a spec out of cursing your own weaponry is one thing, but far from the theme of the Demon Hunters who seek to obliterate demons, not inflict their curse.

The idea is not the weaponry itself, but how it functions with the class. The weapons are conduits for which the Demon Hunters channel their energy through. They are cursed by this demonic power. This isn't the same as picking up Frostmourne and saying 'Hey I'm a DH LOL', there's more to it than that.

Soul magic is covered by Warlocks. Both in cursing and stealing enemy souls (Affliction; Soul Shards) and afflicting their own soul with nigh-unbearable pain. (Destruction; Burning Embers and Hellfire)

This spec is not about external soul magic, or sucking the souls out of others. It's about drawing fel power from the Demon Hunter's own Cursed Soul.

Demon Hunters encapsulate their souls with fel energy, a process that would be explained through lore and story. They have a high source of power by means of their ritualistic sacrifices. The Cursed Soul concept is a culmination of all of this. This does not mean they are more powerful than Warlocks or any other class however, they simply contain overwhelming energy in their bodies. Their skill in its use is determined by their own training and willpower. This explains why they must continue to challenge stronger opponents, as a means for them to control and harness their own inner potential.

Control is an interesting concept, but again, not something beyond the reach of Warlocks as Warlocks have been known to use souls to enhance their abilities. (Soul Shards, Firestones, Spellstones) I'd say Control would be the closest thing to a theme that we can get from that. The problem is the overlapping of soul-based magic, which is relatively insubstantial so long as soul magic is the basis of the Demon Hunter instead of Demon magic. But the overlap is still there.

Control is the ideal 'Demon' spec, if there was one. It's meant to overlap with Warlocks. Everything that has been said about similarities between the two classes would be retained here in Control. Turning into demons, casting fiery spells, transfer of health mechanics - all of it. This would equate to any two specs in the game that are similar to each other, such as the two Holy specs or two Resto specs or two Frost specs. The key difference will be that Control for DH will be applied strictly to a Melee form of gameplay, perhaps applied as the Tank spec.

This idea builds on broadening the scope of Demon Hunters beyond simply being melee Warlock parallels. Mastery of bladed weaponry invokes an idea of the Blackrock Blademasters, who were empowered by the Blood of Mannoroth. Soul magic represents the second unique aspect of Demon Hunters, drawing their magic from within and tapping into their internal source of power. Control is the undeniable 'Classic Demon Hunter' spec, which would have obvious overlaps with the Warlock, but be designed strictly for a melee/tank style of gameplay. The parallel would be between Holy Priest and Ret/Prot Paladin.

Defining features such as Blindfolds, Tattooes and use of Warglaives would all come secondary to the identity of this new Demon Hunter.

[Talen]

Let's start with

Demon Hunters are not Warlocks

Let's not. That's your opinion. It's shared by others. Mine is that...gamewise...Demon Hunters most certainly ARE Warlocks. And that to is shared by others.

Which opinion does Blizzard share?

We don't know with 100% certainty.

However....

Warlocks have been deliberately given the Demon Hunters look
Warlocks have been given the Demon Hunters most iconic abilities
The Demon Hunter has been strip mined as a source of inspiration for Warlocks for years
Blizzard, myself, and others have already commented on the heavy overlap in the design space with Warlocks
Demon Hunter NPCs make use of Warlock abilities and spells
Lorewise...canon lore that is...Demon Hunters, like Warlocks, get their power by making pacts with demons
Lorewise...canon lore that is...Demon Hunters, like Warlocks, have been shown working with and using Demons
Seven years of deliberate design by Blizzard which has seen the Warlock become more and more like the Demon Hunter and vice versa.

So....given that Blizzards current design of the Warlock class has left the lack of melee viability as the one major difference between the two, do you think Blizzard might see Demon Hunters as a melee focussed Warlock...in the same way Enhancement is a melee focussed Shaman or Feral is a melee focussed Druid?

EJL

[Talen]

paladin: holy warrior
Priest: holy caster

Warlock: fel caster

Demon hunter: demonic warrior or rogue(whatever fits).

yeah not see what you mean.

The major problem with these, of course, is that you need a stronger theme than "Lets just use the school of magic they use to define them"

What's the core concept behind a Demon Hunter? He's someone who makes a Demonic pact for power.
What is the core unifying theme? For someone who made a pact with demons, allowing the use of Demons and demonic power, giving him access to demonic magic and spells, and who has the ability to turn into a demon? Demons.

For a Warlock? The exact same. That's a bit deeper than the simplistic and misleading "school of magic" criteria, true..but also more accurate.

Isn't that up to the designers, and not me?

I mean, whatever I say you will refute by saying it's not official part of lore, or using an absence of evidence argument, wouldn't you?

Since what you say usually does contradict the lore, that probably isn't too much of a stretch.

I would just as well ask, do you think the Paladin has no reason to exist in Warcraft because its theme is shared by the Priest and Warrior?

Why keep using this straw man argument? All of those classes have VERY different themes. All of those classes, more importantly, have their own separated design spaces, their own class concepts, their own themes.

You keep trying to make the pointless argument that the school of magic used by a class has some impact on the class theme. It doesn't. It doesn't even factor into gameplay any more. All it really impacts is spell color. It's part of what gives their class flavour, but beyond that it is of no importance whatsoever.

It's almost as if you don't have any points to argue with beyond your opinion of how you want the class to be.

If you want an example, then take one I'd written up for the other recent DH thread, as a response to Teriz's challenge of coming up with 3 specs for a non-Warlock Demon Hunter.

The real challenge would be coming up with a new design space whilst still keeping the lore and flavour and look of the DH you say you want. It's easy to design the class if you don't have to keep within the limits imposed by the existing design space.

Of course, the problem here is that doing so is impossible. You literally cannot create a new design space without undoing everything that already exists with canon.

If you have a Demon Hunter that doesn't look like Illidan, doesn't act like Illidan, shares none of the abilities or style as Illidan, has none of the loreor rituals of Demon Hunters...yeah, that's doable. But you might as well call the Mage or Warrior a Demon Hunter class.

Death Knights are not damned by choice, and this is an integral part of the Demon Hunter's theme.

As it is with Warlocks.

They willingly sacrifice themselves to gain untold power

As it is with Warlocks

On top of this, 'Damnatioon' specifically refers to the Cursed Soul concept, in which they turn their souls into a living battery of Fel power. This is something unshared by any other class.

Except Warlocks, especially using GoSac. And only if you can somehow separate Fel power from its Demonic heritage.

They are cursed by this demonic power.

As are Warlocks.

This spec is not about external soul magic, or sucking the souls out of others. It's about drawing fel power from the Demon Hunter's own Cursed Soul.

Which, giving you the full benefit of the doubt here, they get by making a pact with demons for power. Just as Warlocks do.

Demon Hunters encapsulate their souls with fel energy, a process that would be explained through lore and story. They have a high source of power by means of their ritualistic sacrifices. The Cursed Soul concept is a culmination of all of this.

So...again with the benefit of the doubt....all you've managed to say till here is that DHs and Warlocks simply use the Fel Energy they have differently....but that they get such power in the same manner.

Defining features such as Blindfolds, Tattooes and use of Warglaives would all come secondary to the identity of this new Demon Hunter.

So you would be happy with a Demon Hunter who looks nothing like Illidan?

EJL

[Lindon]

Demon Hunters are not warlocks, they are vastly different.

Tinkers are only the engineer profession trying to break free and become a new class.

I am right, you are wrong. Can we lock the thread now?

[Deleted]

Can we put it to rest now

[Drilnos]

Tinkers are only the engineer profession trying to break free and become a new class.

Damn skippy. The surly bonds of the profession system are the proverbial five pound bag into which ten pounds of engineering is compressed, the domesticating forces which made little yippy lap dogs out of dire wolves the size of bears. Engineering wants to be free, wild, untamed. It wants teeth and claws. It's the Incredible Hulk trapped in the flabby body of Bruce Banner, it's Optimus Prime trapped in truck mode. There's a vicious freaking killer in there, and it's chained to a bench and forced to make toys. Cut that thing's chain, I say. Let it taste blood. The entire branch of knowledge that produces war machines, industrial accidents and radioactive abominations unto the Lord deserves better than this.

[Teriz]

Can we put it to rest now

Finally! It took them long enough to just come out and say it.