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[AceofHarts]

it extends beyond that. he exploits people, and he is NOT a raid leader. thats why he is perceived as a 'bad person' and alternately called villain\devil\demon depending on the translation.



harem's a harem. of the four examples I listed, I didn't think any of them really had a compelling reason for falling for Shiroe, and you gotta keep in mind... his harem developed over the course of.... weeks ? contrasted to what you pointed out as years on Kirito's part... I *like* harem anime's. They do a pretty good job at some humor later on with it... but you can't knock SOA's harem without acknowledging that LH does the same exact thing... only moreso. And the harem certainly wasn't the main course in SOA either.



You say potato, I say tomato. Fact is, Kirito & Shiroe both started with 'knowledge and killer instincts', but Kirito started at level 1. Shiroe started at level 90.



Don't knock Rudy. He's a better person than Shiroe ever was.



it really is.



oh, i totally forgot about Kirito's friends calling him evil and a demon... ohwait.... and Shiroe isn't coming out of his shell any more then Kirito was. they're the same character (altho for different reasons). Kirito chose the solo play to save the rest of the beta testers from the stigma. Shiroe chose solo play because he didn't want people 'using him' for his knowledge and power. Kirito eventually grew out of his exile, and was able to be married and have a child. Shiroe.... doesn't change. You just see his plan start to unfold.



yeah, no.

he was always sociable. thats what the tea party was. he just went solo cuz he wasn't comfortable helping people. (the very limited exception of the twins is explained multiple times WHY it was the exception). His friends list didn't grow all that much from when they first merged into the world.

i really don't understand how you can call 'making a guild out of people that were friends before the anime started' growing in sociability but... 'meeting someone new, romancing her, marrying her, and having a child' *isnt* character development and social growth.

he was a strategist. news flash. that's a raid leader. look at what he was doing in the very first episode. directing naoutsugu and akatsuki. it's what he does.
he exploits people huh? so does kirito.

have any of them actually fallen for him yet? other than akatsuki?
he has 1 person as of right now in his harem. congratulations.

really? Shiroe has knowledge of a video game that has been out for 8+ years? OH MY GOD.

i'm not knocking him, but you can't deny that he likes to act like he's better than everyone.

if getting married in a video game and having a psuedo kid are character development, that is the extent of kirito's development in 2 years. and congratulations. it took him those two years to have any development at all.

Asuna herself said that Kirito was "suspicious". and your reputation isn't based on what just your friends think of you. look at all the people who hate kirito throughout the series. and while we are on the subject of people being a "bad person" what exactly did shiroe do that was evil? lets see. nothing. he blackmailed people who were willing to blackmail him in the first place in order to get everyone to cooperate in the name of the greater good.

the tea party, akatsuki, tohya/minori, and crescent moon was the extent of his sociability. around 50 people based on what i recall. in an MMO with 30,000 players. just in japan.
Kirito on the other hand has: Klein (and by extension his guild), Liz and the dragon girl, asuna, and the armorsmith dude whos name i forgot. wow. thats like 25 people. tops. (and that's being generous, since i HIGHLY doubt he socializes too much with anyone in Kleins guild outside of Klein).

it wasn't that he wasn't comfortable helping people, it's that people ABUSED him. they knew he knew everything, and instead of doing research or trying it themselves, they nagged him for all the details. i've experienced the same stuff, it sucks when people won't even do a little bit of research.

[Halicia]

he was a strategist. news flash. that's a raid leader. look at what he was doing in the very first episode. directing naoutsugu and akatsuki. it's what he does.

news flash. that was a party. news flash... whenever he has been in a raid. someone else has been leading. news flash. when he raids again, he isn't the raid leader. news flash, if you've ever been in a real raid, you'd know the difference between leading a raid, and developing a gameplan. not even remotely similar. Shiroe is a kingmaker, not a king.

he exploits people huh? so does kirito.

your point being ? You were the one trying to disprove my similarities between the two, and you just agreed they were. I really don't understand your point here.

have any of them actually fallen for him yet? other than akatsuki?
he has 1 person as of right now in his harem. congratulations.

eh... 'right now' he has well, at least 5 I can think of off the top of my head. I gave you specific examples of the four. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true. And if you're going to start calling it out episode by episode, Kirito gained his "harem" LONG after Shiroe does.

really? Shiroe has knowledge of a video game that has been out for 8+ years? OH MY GOD.

yeah, and Kirito's game *WASN'T* out for 8+ years. And what little knowledge he started out with, quickly turned out to be false and lethal anyways. So who had the growth here ? The guy that started fresh, or the guy that started knowing everything at level 90 ?

i'm not knocking him, but you can't deny that he likes to act like he's better than everyone.

which has nothing to do with the price of tea in china. You might as well be using Love Hina characters to support your arguments for all the merit it has.

if getting married in a video game and having a psuedo kid are character development, that is the extent of kirito's development in 2 years. and congratulations. it took him those two years to have any development at all.

it stopped being a videogame the moment people died. two years is a perfectly fine timeline for meeting, romancing, wedding, moving in together, and having a child. don't know why you're taking issue with that other then to be disagreeable.

what exactly did shiroe do that was evil? lets see. nothing. he blackmailed people who were willing to blackmail him in the first place in order to get everyone to cooperate in the name of the greater good.

yeah, no. even if that were all of it, "greater good" is just an excuse for evil to get its way. you said kirito had a worse rep then shiroe, he didn't. Kirito was willing to be the target of hate to protect others. Shiroe was the target of hate because he wanted to get his way. Shiroe's friends are OK with who he is, but those not directly dependent on him (aka, in other guilds) have no qualms reminding him just what a demon he is at every chance. While his harem rally to try and change that perception among the general populace

around 50 people based on what i recall.

50 people is a !@#$ing ton on a friends list, and those are just the ones that were online. How many friends did Kirito have at the start ? 1 ? (granted, I'll accept the caveat that that one was taking the same role as the twins, just like asuna and akatsuki are fairly interchangeable at that point too). Shiroe was given 8 years of history in the game, and people KNEW him.

Kirito on the other hand has: Klein (and by extension his guild), Liz and the dragon girl, asuna, and the armorsmith dude whos name i forgot. wow. thats like 25 people. tops. (and that's being generous, since i HIGHLY doubt he socializes too much with anyone in Kleins guild outside of Klein).

No, he didn't. I'll give you Klein, because that's pretty much the same as the Shiroe and the twins. but he had NOONE ELSE. The rest of them all came after the fact.

it wasn't that he wasn't comfortable helping people, it's that people ABUSED him.

no, he got used. the twins got abused. and he sat by and let it happen because he was too busy pursuing his own desires to help people on his friendslist.

they knew he knew everything, and instead of doing research or trying it themselves, they nagged him for all the details. i've experienced the same stuff, it sucks when people won't even do a little bit of research.

there's a big difference between someone coming up to you and asking you a question, and being held prisoner, beaten, and ... worse. but again... whether his desires were justified or not, he refrained from being 'openly' social, except when HE needed something from someone. Kirito didn't *want* to be antisocial, but allowed himself to be made a pariah so that the other beta testers wouldn't be persecuted.

[AceofHarts]

news flash. that was a party. news flash... whenever he has been in a raid. someone else has been leading. news flash. when he raids again, he isn't the raid leader. news flash, if you've ever been in a real raid, you'd know the difference between leading a raid, and developing a gameplan. not even remotely similar. Shiroe is a kingmaker, not a king.



your point being ? You were the one trying to disprove my similarities between the two, and you just agreed they were. I really don't understand your point here.



eh... 'right now' he has well, at least 5 I can think of off the top of my head. I gave you specific examples of the four. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true. And if you're going to start calling it out episode by episode, Kirito gained his "harem" LONG after Shiroe does.



yeah, and Kirito's game *WASN'T* out for 8+ years. And what little knowledge he started out with, quickly turned out to be false and lethal anyways. So who had the growth here ? The guy that started fresh, or the guy that started knowing everything at level 90 ?



which has nothing to do with the price of tea in china. You might as well be using Love Hina characters to support your arguments for all the merit it has.



it stopped being a videogame the moment people died. two years is a perfectly fine timeline for meeting, romancing, wedding, moving in together, and having a child. don't know why you're taking issue with that other then to be disagreeable.



yeah, no. even if that were all of it, "greater good" is just an excuse for evil to get its way. you said kirito had a worse rep then shiroe, he didn't. Kirito was willing to be the target of hate to protect others. Shiroe was the target of hate because he wanted to get his way. Shiroe's friends are OK with who he is, but those not directly dependent on him (aka, in other guilds) have no qualms reminding him just what a demon he is at every chance. While his harem rally to try and change that perception among the general populace



50 people is a !@#$ing ton on a friends list, and those are just the ones that were online. How many friends did Kirito have at the start ? 1 ? (granted, I'll accept the caveat that that one was taking the same role as the twins, just like asuna and akatsuki are fairly interchangeable at that point too). Shiroe was given 8 years of history in the game, and people KNEW him.



No, he didn't. I'll give you Klein, because that's pretty much the same as the Shiroe and the twins. but he had NOONE ELSE. The rest of them all came after the fact.



no, he got used. the twins got abused. and he sat by and let it happen because he was too busy pursuing his own desires to help people on his friendslist.



there's a big difference between someone coming up to you and asking you a question, and being held prisoner, beaten, and ... worse. but again... whether his desires were justified or not, he refrained from being 'openly' social, except when HE needed something from someone. Kirito didn't *want* to be antisocial, but allowed himself to be made a pariah so that the other beta testers wouldn't be persecuted.

if he wasn't raid leading why was he called the strategist of the tea party? he may not have been the overall leader of the party (which by the way, had lots of people, as in doing raids, they even say this), but he was the strategist and the one coming up with the plans from what is inferred.

oh. so the one similarity between the two is that they both exploit people. oh darn. one thing in common.

really? it seems to me that his knowledge was quite pivotal. knowing the various attack patterns, quest locations, etc. damn that has to be helpful.

really? where in the anime does he have 5 different women after him? Minori has shown ZERO romantic interest, Akatsuki has. Henrietta danced with him, but is far more interested in Akatsuki. Marie has shown him the same level of affection she has shown everyone else with her thunderous hugs.

except they weren't dating or romancing, and from what is inferred, Kirito and Asuna didn't spend all that much time together, and he had zero feelings for her until after he was almost killed by the kuradeel douche.

except most people don't seem to have any hatred for shiroe, they have respect for what he does. the whole "Villain in glasses" thing, yeah he has that nickname, but frankly, i don't see anyone who actually hates him (except maybe the dudes from brigandia and hamlen). show me one person shown outside those two guilds that genuinely has anomosity towards him.

and yet kirito never even tried to make friends with anyone. in 2 years he has made at best 10 people he can consider actual friends.

as for friends im talking as of right now in the story, where they both stand at 14 episodes in. a side by side comparison.

look at shiroe talk about his backround. he said he doesn't normally go out of his way to help people because the abused the fact that he knew so much (yes, they used him, but they blatently abused the privilege, relying completely on him). shiroe at the time didn't even know what hamlen was up to when minori and tohya joined that guild. and he was busy helping out Crescent Moon.

if Kirito didn't want to be a loner why did he ditch Klein at the very end of the first episode? and why did he only have asuna to team up with in the second episode? surely he could have made more friends than that in the month between episodes 1 and 2?