The slippery slope has finally ended.

[KrazyK923]

Anyone can get to lvl 90, and anyone can get normal SoO gear.

This is such a joke.

Imagine somebody boosting 8 alts to 90 and being able to pump out these pieces and other items as well in no time flat because of additional daily cooldowns.

"Let me pick the most extreme example possible and pretend that is the norm."

Buying full heroic warforged BiS is, by your definition, somehow not P2W?

Putting words into my mouth is fun. I've already seen with you how unreasonably ridiculous your bias is. Its not worth it.

I can't wait for WoD to come out and you all see that absolutely nothing happens. Its fun watching you all crash and burn after every doomsday prophecy is shown to just be bullshit. I seriously wonder if some people here actually believe this crap they're spouting or if they just don't understand.

[Giscoicus]

The logic behind people complaining about this is irrational... as an example.

1. You work hard at your job, save up your money and buy a small car.

2. That guy works just enough to pay his bills, gets a loan from the bank and buys a car.

The rational of the argument is that you're mad at the guy because he got a loan for his car. You leveled the regular way to 90... He bought his level 90. You did work to get where you are. He bought his way to where you are.

Honestly.. just stop and think about it for a few minutes. :P

Real life doesnt have a subscription fee we are all already paying

[cFortyfive]

Should look forward to what's coming the addon after wod now that titan went down like titanic

[roahn the warlock]

Food for thought.

I know that if I ran a business that periodically reduced the leveling time to 90 by numbers upwards of 33%, and suddenly made a way to buy and skip all that. I would no longer periodically reduce the time it takes to level from 1-90.

Now this is of course conjecture, but still likely

[Archimand]

A instant level 90 is not pay to win like full warforged normal isnt pay to win.

Any advantage for money is P2W even if there is more above it. And along with crafting cooldowns, banks and daily/weekly lockouts, more max level characters provide an advantage

you grasping at straws, pay 2 win has 1 definition which is you pay to win. paying to get level 90 instantly instead of it taking 3 days isnt pay to win, he isnt getting any adventege over players that decide to level the normal way.

paying to get full set of gear is pay to win because you pay to increase the power of your character.

[Giscoicus]

Putting words into my mouth is fun. I've already seen with you how unreasonably ridiculous your bias is. Its not worth it.

I can't wait for WoD to come out and you all see that absolutely nothing happens. Its fun watching you all crash and burn after every doomsday prophecy is shown to just be bullshit.

You said, "Because pay to win means you gain an advantage over other players by paying for something that they cannot get unless they pay."

You claimed Pay 2 Win is only when it is unavailable ingame. Heroic Warforged gear is obtainable ingame, so by your definition, because they can get it without paying, selling it in the store would not be P2W

[Mormolyce]

No, what people like us are saying is "Stop being drama queens and equating what this is with what it is not, which is pay to win."

If only we could mandate this on the forums somehow, it'd kill off so many shitty threads.

[MikeBogina]

Like I said before. Selling people a level 90 for WoD is like selling Tier 6 gear for Wrath of the Lich King.

more like level 80 then. Not sure how long it takes someone, without boas to get max lvl(not everyone is so bored that they max out how much exp they gain like others) but im sure it's the same as a fresh 90 going into SoO every week and getting full normal gear. Joined a raiding guild months after SoO, i was full pvp. Took me 4 weeks to get full normal gear with only 3 hrs a week.

My only argument is that it is selling power. It's trivial, but still counts. If it doesnt count, then that means SoO Heroic Warforged is the only thing that matters.

[Giscoicus]

you grasping at straws, pay 2 win has 1 definition which is you pay to win. paying to get level 90 instantly instead of it taking 3 days isnt pay to win, he isnt getting any adventege over players that decide to level the normal way.

paying to get full set of gear is pay to win because you pay to increase the power of your character.

How is getting a level boost different than getting full normal gear, since in both cases there is a bit more? Boost to 90? Still have 100. Get full normal? Still have heroic.

An advantage is an advantage. And I have already explained the advantage additional alts provide.

[tss]

Let's be generous with semantics and say that yes, they will soon be selling max-level characters that just happen to come with a pre-order for the next expansion. Once WoD drops... 90 is no longer max level, and it's only one character at that. Whether they'll sell boosts individually is yet to be decided but I can't say I find it unlikely. Nor can I say I find it a bad idea. Wouldn't you say that it's reasonable to offer a catch-up mechanism after ten years of content, especially when you get one for free? I can't see them upgrading the boost to level 100 when the expansion after WoD drops. If leveling is so precious an experience to you, no one is forcing you to skip it, just like no one is forcing you to pay to transfer your 90 from one server or faction to another... you can level another one instead. But when so many people hit brick walls when they reach Outland, Northrend, Cata, or Pandaria, it's poor business to not offer a way around it. Don't bitch about paid level boosts out of one side of your mouth and dropping sub levels out of another.

[Berethos08]

This makes me sad. When WoW does something, every other MMO does it. I suppose this means that this is the future for MMO's?

WoW's isn't the first in this case - EQ2 has been offering high level characters for a few months at least. Of course, they are actually a F2P MMO using F2P practices, rather than subscription based one sneaking those practices in where they can.

[KrazyK923]

You said, "Because pay to win means you gain an advantage over other players by paying for something that they cannot get unless they pay."

You claimed Pay 2 Win is only when it is unavailable ingame. Heroic Warforged gear is obtainable ingame, so by your definition, because they can get it without paying, selling it in the store would not be P2W

No, it actually wouldn't be by the definition. It would be still shiesty as fuck and I'd be against it. But it isn't pay to win. Pay to win would mean making Warforged gear and you can ONLY obtain it by paying for it.

Of course all of this means nothing because Blizzard isn't doing this and your attempts to obfuscate the issue are glaringly obvious.

How is getting a level boost different than getting full normal gear, since in both cases there is a bit more?

Because you aren't gaining power over other people of your level. This is what you absolutely fail to grasp. Bringing up anything regarding max level vs low level is so ridiculous that its hard to even take you remotely serious.

[Zeras]

What's even more fun is maybe that most you regardless of glory day memories and whatnot, you will still buy that expansion and you will like it! and prolly cap a few alts along the way, heck maybe even raids will be demanding you have x amount of alts to stay and be competative or its /gkick :P

[Mulderfox]

I mean, leveling your character to max is literally the easiest part of the game. You literally cannot fail to reach max level unless you completely quit playing. Not only this, but people have been asking for the ability to skip leveling new toons. A large portion of the population have at least 4-5 max level characters, if not more, and have been complaining about having to re-max their toons yet again (although I personally like leveling characters and agree with blizz that the point of alts is to actually play them).

If some newbie player decides to try out WoW and is SO floored that he/she wants to buy a slew of max level toons with no knowledge or perspective on how to play the game, who gives a crap? The fact that everything is account bound now means that it is the account that is valuable, not the character. Blizzard isn't overstepping some preverbal, imaginary boundary by offering a service that has been requested for several years that doesn't adversely affect the player base at all. If anything, the worse side effect is that it is even less time spent playing the game, thus contributing to boredom even more (again my opinion being that leveling is fun, so its something that keeps me subbed anyway).

[Giscoicus]

No, it actually wouldn't be by the definition. It would be still shiesty as fuck and I'd be against it. But it isn't pay to win. Pay to win would mean making Warforged gear and you can ONLY obtain it by paying for it.

Of course all of this means nothing because Blizzard isn't doing this and your attempts to obfuscate the issue are glaringly obvious.

The issue is you drawing arbitrary lines at what type of advantage is too much.

And no, the way players have always defined a P2W game is paying to get an advantage, this isnt a platformer we don't have 1 exact "win"

[KrazyK923]

The issue is you drawing arbitrary lines at what type of advantage is too much.

And no, the way players have always defined a P2W game is paying to get an advantage, this isnt a platformer we don't have 1 exact "win"

Except I'm not. I'm using the actual definition. You are the one drawing an arbitrary line.

And no, again, players have NOT always defined a P2W game as "paying to get an advantage." Its paying to get advantages people cannot get if they don't. It always has been.

Fuck it, I'm done with you. You're a joke dude. Like this entire thread. I am so tired of you doomsdaying cry babies prophesying false things that never come to pass. I'll go back to laughing at you all from a distance.

[Veyne]

True, they are officially testing how to do so, which is similar enough to warrant concern for those who care about it.

They've tested things before that never became widespread, like the ridiculously short raid lockouts on some Asian servers, if I remember correctly.

[notorious98]

*snip*

And anybody can go on the auction house and buy all of those pieces in 28 days without having to spend any real money. You're also neglecting (intentionally?) to remember that you have to LEARN those patterns by crafting said cloth. They don't just come to you. And that's four pieces of gear over 28 days. How do you think you'll go about farming for the mats? In order for you to achieve that amount of mats (for the celestial cloth CD, in this case) you'd need 400 pieces of windwool cloth, or 80 bolts of Windwool cloth......a day.

Oh, and since when does "an advantage" in the economy mean anything? My wife is perfectly fine to run around with no more than 10k gold at a time and she does perfectly fine playing all aspects of this game. Having more gold is not a tangible advantage over anybody. Especially in a game that basically hands you gold hand over fist.

[Veyne]

And no, again, players have NOT always defined a P2W game as "paying to get an advantage." Its paying to get advantages people cannot get if they don't. It always has been.

I have played loads of Freemium MMORPGs, and have NEVER played one that was called "P2W" that wasn't, pretty much, this guy right here's definition.

[Mulderfox]

This makes me sad. When WoW does something, every other MMO does it. I suppose this means that this is the future for MMO's?

LOADS of other online games already do this, not even just MMOs. Look at games like Battlefield where you can buy unlocks in the game. Sure, you can plug away for weeks and weeks at a massive disadvantage, or you can just drop $50 to get it all up front like everyone else.

Look at SWTOR which isn't even pay-to-win so much as pay-not-to-lose, where they reduce experience gains, disable multiple action bars, prevent equipping epic or above gear, prevent basic functions like titles and number of characters...etc.

Look at Guild Wars, with an online shop almost exactly like WoW, with completely optional cosmetic perks for sale as well as quality of life unlocks.

I really don't get why people are so affronted by Blizzard providing its player base with more options. Trust me, the money they make from the in game store is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they make from subs alone, let alone ALL the WoW/Blizzard paraphernalia out there (board games, tee shirts, novelty items, etc.)