shadow

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I disagree. Shadow is the number 1 easiest caster dps to play. Without DoT snapshotting the spec would be so unbelievably boring that I would have trouble staying awake. Shadow isn't looking to well when dot snapshotting gets removed in WoD.

You have either, 1) Not played all caster specs, and thus your opinion doesnt matter, or 2) You played some of the other specs to their full potential, while just doing the most basic Shadow play you could possibly manage, without caring for the result.

Even without DoT snapshotting or multidotting, Destro, Affliction, Fire, Frost, Elemental and Balance, are still easier to play than Shadow

No other class has a mechanic like Mind Flay Insanity, a mechanic that forces you to stay still for 6-8sec (6sec DP duration + 2sec for the MF you start when the DP is at 0,2sec), and forces you to make a decision before said DP is applied to the target: "Do I refresh DoTs to keep 100% uptime, or do I let them fall off for some seconds in favor of stronger ticks (power of current dots vs current procs)". The closest you get with the movement issue, is an Elemental Shaman with Ascendance up while SWG is on CD, or a Destro Lock with Chaos Bolt. Except that the Dps loss from cancelling a Chaos Bolt is not even close to that of not getting to channel MF while DP is up on the target (embers arent spent until the spell is cast). Heck, the issue with refreshing early before DP is totally unique to Shadow.

So, I fail to see how you can take yourself even remotely serious, claiming that "Shadow is the by far easiest caster spec in the game".

[zorkuus]

ele shaman says hi

Atleast they have procs, with the spriest you can make a completely procless build which just happens to be the best damage to boot.

[Deleted]

don't confuse RNG with skill ^^

[zorkuus]

don't confuse RNG with skill ^^

It is how you utilize the rng that takes skill, however minimal that is but it's still more than none.

[Deleted]

Even without DoT snapshotting or multidotting, Destro, Affliction, Fire, Frost, Elemental and Balance, are still easier to play than Shadow

I'm sorry, just no. I really can't take the rest of your post seriously when you say stuff like this. I've played every caster spec and at the very least I am able to play on a normal-mid heroic raiding level on all of them and none of these specs felt even slightly harder than shadow.

You claiming that having to move in the middle of casting insanity somehow makes the spec hard is laughable. Just because the spec isn't very mobile does not make it hard and if you think it does then you need to look up the definition of hard. But I'd really love to see any other argument you can make to somehow defend the easiness of the spec.

I find it funny no matter what spec it is, if you somehow call it the easiest then people who main it will always jump to defend it and make it seem 10x harder than what it really is.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

You claiming that having to move in the middle of casting insanity somehow makes the spec hard is laughable. Just because the spec isn't very mobile does not make it hard and if you think it does then you need to look up the definition of hard. But I'd really love to see any other argument you can make to somehow defend the easiness of the spec.

Feel free to take a look at the post you quoted again, and actually read what I wrote.

Destro: Keep Immolate up, spam Incin and use CB with procs. Use your Conflag Haste charges on Incin rather than CB. Dmg loss from failing your rotation = faaar lower than Shadow

Aff: Keep your dots up (which you can refresh whenever you like), spam MG, Haunt with strong dots. The actual Aff roation is the easiest in the game. The difficulty comes from refreshing dots at the correct time, not the actual rotation (which is what you were talking about).

Fire: Keep Bomb up, use Pyro procs, Inferno Blast on Heating up procs. Use Combustion with a good Ignite. Spam FB.

Frost: Keep Bomb up, spam FFB and IL when they proc. Spam FB.

Ele: Keep FS up, LvB on CD. Be smart about not wasting Lightning Shield procs because of overriding ES and FS CDs. Spam LB.

Balance: Keep both dots up. SS on CD. Wrath and SF to move between Eclipses and refersh dots depending on procs and eclipses (basically Shadow with more instant casts and without the handicap of MFI, aka easier).


Those are the basic rotations. Yes, the other classes do have things like Havoc SBing, Soul Swap multidotting (easier than manual SP multidotting), Alter Time to make the most out of Mage CDs, and holding on to a SS proc to not enter/leave an Eclipse too early.

Mind Flay Insanity IS the thing that makes Shadow HARDER than the other mentioned specs.

Again, the overall planning ahead and concentration required to play Shadow TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL (or close to it), is much higher than for any of the other specs.


Im not defending Shadow as "the hardest" because its the spec I play. Im defending it because of clueless shitters claiming it to be the easiest spec of all the casters, when anybody with basic class knowledge knows that its simply not the case.

The only other casters that are in the same league as Shadow are Arcane and Demo. Arcane because of the insane amount of min-maxing and concentration required to get the max out of your Mastery (high skillcap), and Demo because of how easy it is to lose a TON of dmg if you use Meta a bit too early/late.

[worcester]

From what I understood dot snapshotting from trinkets is gone, but from class mechanics it isn't. Which suggests it still works with Dark Soul and Power Infusion.

im sure they were talking about +damage modifier like twist of fate and dream of cenarius. things which give attributes update the character sheet which would update the dot with snapshotting gone. the +damage modifier is not an attribute of the character sheet but part of the cast spell and so do not update until recast. that is what i understood.

[Yvaelle]

I'm sorry, just no. I really can't take the rest of your post seriously when you say stuff like this. I've played every caster spec and at the very least I am able to play on a normal-mid heroic raiding level on all of them and none of these specs felt even slightly harder than shadow.

You claiming that having to move in the middle of casting insanity somehow makes the spec hard is laughable. Just because the spec isn't very mobile does not make it hard and if you think it does then you need to look up the definition of hard. But I'd really love to see any other argument you can make to somehow defend the easiness of the spec.

Define hard. Explain a spec which you think is the hardest, so we have a basis for comparison in your criteria. I think Thrash's argument is that no other caster has to put as much forethought into predicting the future mechanics of the fight as Shadow, and I'd agree with his point entirely - precisely because Shadow is so horribly immobile, and how we attempt to mitigate that deficiency is arguably, one of the hardest caster DPS mechanics.

That makes Shadow a legitimate contender - but I'm not an expert at Mage / Balance / Elemental specs. Certainly I wouldn't rank any of the warlock specs above Shadow's issue - movement is trivial to my lock - most mechanics I can instantly teleport 40 yards to reposition, and the rest of the time I can cast while moving at a trivial DPS loss (as opposed to Shadow's crippling loss during any movement at all). Affliction's challenge is in DoT uptime, but that has been made dramatically easier via Pandemic (allowing you to refresh it whenever you are at the filler-stage of your priorities), Soul Swap, and regaining full Soul Shards off every dead add. DoT snapshots are more important to Shadow than Affliction - and execute cycling adds is harder for Shadow than Affliction due to the cooldown on Death. Combined with managing ToF uptime, which Affliction has no parity to whatsoever.

Of the Lock specs, I would argue that Affliction is the most challenging - the only Lock contender against Shadow - but MoP Affliction is especcially easy for Cata Shadowpriests, because MoP Affliction was cut and paste directly from Cata Shadow - so it could be that former Locks found it new and challenging, while long-time Spriests find current Affliction effortless via years of experience: the issue could be one of perception.

I find it funny no matter what spec it is, if you somehow call it the easiest then people who main it will always jump to defend it and make it seem 10x harder than what it really is.

Or, more likely - the people who main a spec are simply better at it, and put more effort into mastering it, than the people who respecced their disc priest alt Shadow for an LFR run once - and then declared themselves the master of it ;p I can play Affliction better than probably ~70% of heroic Lock raiders, but I'm sure Drye knows more about Affliction than I do - and does more with it than I know how to do.

You probably remembered to put all the right buttons on your bars when you tried Shadow, and you may have even pressed them in the right guide-listed priority - but you very likely missed the subtleties of the spec - I don't think it's a stretch that, given the same avatar with the same gear and talents - I'd out-dps you as Shadow - probably by 10's of kDPS. If you main, say, a Destro Lock - the same would likely be true in reverse. I know Destro to a passing degree, but I haven't played it all expansion - I'm not insulted to think a Destro Lock main would beat me by a fairly significant margin: hell, I'd be disappointed if they didn't.

[Deleted]

Feel free to take a look at the post you quoted again, and actually read what I wrote.

Destro: Keep Immolate up, spam Incin and use CB with procs. Use your Conflag Haste charges on Incin rather than CB. Dmg loss from failing your rotation = faaar lower than Shadow

Aff: Keep your dots up (which you can refresh whenever you like), spam MG, Haunt with strong dots. The actual Aff roation is the easiest in the game. The difficulty comes from refreshing dots at the correct time, not the actual rotation (which is what you were talking about).

Fire: Keep Bomb up, use Pyro procs, Inferno Blast on Heating up procs. Use Combustion with a good Ignite. Spam FB.

Frost: Keep Bomb up, spam FFB and IL when they proc. Spam FB.

Ele: Keep FS up, LvB on CD. Be smart about not wasting Lightning Shield procs because of overriding ES and FS CDs. Spam LB.

Balance: Keep both dots up. SS on CD. Wrath and SF to move between Eclipses and refersh dots depending on procs and eclipses (basically Shadow with more instant casts and without the handicap of MFI, aka easier).


Those are the basic rotations. Yes, the other classes do have things like Havoc SBing, Soul Swap multidotting (easier than manual SP multidotting), Alter Time to make the most out of Mage CDs, and holding on to a SS proc to not enter/leave an Eclipse too early.

Mind Flay Insanity IS the thing that makes Shadow HARDER than the other mentioned specs.

Again, the overall planning ahead and concentration required to play Shadow TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL (or close to it), is much higher than for any of the other specs.


Im not defending Shadow as "the hardest" because its the spec I play. Im defending it because of clueless shitters claiming it to be the easiest spec of all the casters, when anybody with basic class knowledge knows that its simply not the case.

The only other casters that are in the same league as Shadow are Arcane and Demo. Arcane because of the insane amount of min-maxing and concentration required to get the max out of your Mastery (high skillcap), and Demo because of how easy it is to lose a TON of dmg if you use Meta a bit too early/late.

Just no lol, there is almost NOTHING hard about insanity.

I'm sure anyone who mains any spec who doesn't like their spec being called the easiest will make outrageous claims about how it isn't easiest. You really don't hardly anything to manage outside keeps dots up(which almost every class has to do). You're arguing that mind flay insanity makes it harder than majority of the other casters. ALMOST every class has to plan ahead for something to some degree or another, you saying that insanity planning makes the spec sooooo much harder than all the other specs is just wrong.

Having played every caster saying shadow and arcane are on the same level as demo made me laugh out loud. Playing a lock to it's FULL POTENTIAL, even a balance is by FAR more difficult than shadow.

Also I like how you took every spec you named and simplified them to make them look 10x easier than shadow. I can do that too you know.

Shadow- Mind blast/ SW-D. Keep dots up. DPx3. Mind flay.

[Yvaelle]

Having played every caster saying shadow and arcane are on the same level as demo made me laugh out loud. Playing a lock to it's FULL POTENTIAL, even a balance is by FAR more difficult than shadow.

So wait, your argument is that demo is the hardest caster spec?...

[Deleted]

So wait, your argument is that demo is the hardest caster spec?...

Never said that?? not sure where you got that from.

Saying demo is 10x more difficult to play to it's full potential then shadow is.... which is... almost exactly what you quoted?

I'm saying shadow is easiest caster dps to play. I never said which is hardest.

[Dierdre]

I think they said they will be giving all DoT specs Pandemic too somewhere ><

Yes they did: Pandemic - Snapshotting = Roll your face on the keyboard, it makes no difference anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

So wait, your argument is that demo is the hardest caster spec?...

IMHO it is due to the optimal use of demonic fury. But the difference on difficulty between demo and any caster spec is trivial. If you can master one you can master all without a problem.

Whoever comes in to say "Your spec is the dumbest and easiest to play" is just trolling...

Unless it's ele, then they're right

[zorkuus]

Yes they did: Pandemic - Snapshotting = Roll your face on the keyboard, it makes no difference anymore.

I don't really like the way things are looking for shadow in WoD. Even the new dotless spec which tries to offer a different kind of playstyle fails to take one thing into consideration: all of our procs (all 2 of them) are tied into dots! I really don't see where they're trying to go with that one, it basically (no actually) forces you out of two talent choises. And if the current procless dot spec remains to dominate over the procs then there'll be a choise between two dull procless specs.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Having played every caster saying shadow and arcane are on the same level as demo made me laugh out loud. Playing a lock to it's FULL POTENTIAL, even a balance is by FAR more difficult than shadow.

Nothing to see here guys. The very compelling argment of "LOL YOU ARE WRONG STUPID" has been used in all of its glory. Obvious troll is obvious.

[Yvaelle]

Nothing to see here guys. The very compelling argment of "LOL YOU ARE WRONG STUPID" has been used in all of its glory. Obvious troll is obvious.

Yea... I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt for too long perhaps, I'll be quicker next time. Sorry for the thread interruption!

[Calamari]

Well each ranged spec has some unique requirements of skill, spriests must master dot snapshotting, locks have more resource management, and mage specs tend to require reaction speed above all else. Every one of them is unique in their skill cap so it is not fair comparing apples to oranges.

I don't really like the way things are looking for shadow in WoD. Even the new dotless spec which tries to offer a different kind of playstyle fails to take one thing into consideration: all of our procs (all 2 of them) are tied into dots! I really don't see where they're trying to go with that one, it basically (no actually) forces you out of two talent choises. And if the current procless dot spec remains to dominate over the procs then there'll be a choise between two dull procless specs.

They could take the hamfisted approach and just make DI proc off MS and FDCL proc off MF for Clarity of Power specs, or some such.

But Personally hoping they'll make some changes to the tier 45 talents (baseline Mindbender as Yvaelle suggested would be fricking awesome ), FDCL also kind of begs to be baseline if they remove snapshotting, having procs with dots gives us at least something to react to. Hell, with the state our single target dps is in, they could literally give us the entire 45 tier as baseline abilities and we'd probably still not be overpowered.

I bet a kidney and a half they'll turn one of the lower tiers (probably the lvl 45 tier) into an early AoE-or-ST tier, instead of keeping it only a single target tier as it is right now.

[Deleted]

Nope. Shadow priest can do barely good DPS, and the reason we complain is that more often than not you have to be an ass ("lemme stand in shit just one more sec so I can pull my MFI", "screw priority targets, DoT all the things!!!" "fuck dispels I'm searing the crap out of those bats", "run sucker, I'm not stopping my deeps to give you feathers", "so what if those klaxxi go back to full health? I'm owning those meters!", etc.) to actually pull decent numbers.

Being a good team player and getting good numbers don't go hand by hand for a shadow priest, as opposed to any other caster.

Hehe this post is so good, really identify myself with it. I did pull the klaxxi one in a random flex run the other day. Hope you don't mind me stealing this for sig.

[Yvaelle]

Hehe this post is so good, really identify myself with it. I did pull the klaxxi one in a random flex run the other day. Hope you don't mind me stealing this for sig.

We had a struggling mage candidate on Klaxxi last night - had to sit him for heroic spoils because he couldn't pull the numbers we need. I tutored him in tells off my limited mage knowledge, we brought him back in for reg klaxxi - ALL THE ARCANE FISH ^^ - I created a monster... he was right on my heels the whole fight and he's still ~10 item levels behind me.

Was doing over twice his Spoils damage

[Drye]

Yea... I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt for too long perhaps, I'll be quicker next time. Sorry for the thread interruption!

Took you long enough to realize that

An argument like this is almost as redundant as the lol vs dota one. It's too different to compare.

[Drye]

I have played all caster classes/specs and SPriest is by far the easiest to play for me...what you find hard, may not be hard for others.

So why does that devalue his opinion? What might be hard for you might be really easy for me. The same goes for everyone else. The class being classified as "hard or difficult" to master is subjective. Using shadow as an example, some might find clipping properly hard, back when it mattered more, and someone might not find clipping MF hard but they find dot tracking difficult. In generally all classes have something that makes it "difficult" to do it's rotation and do fight mechanics.