How many tries did your guild need to down SoO HC bosses?

**Genu** · 2014-02-26, 02:00 AM

10man, 3 days/week. Killed garrosh in november

Siege: 150 ish
Paragons: 70
Garrosh: 120-130

**Dracodraco** · 2014-02-26, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Margash

25man: Gene Splice Uptime: 10.30% Damage Done: 179,8mil (-24mil for useless cleave)
10man: Gene Splice Uptime: 14.61% Damage Done: 97,38mil (-11,5mil for useless cleave)
Yeah, too damn strong in 10man, yo.

Firstly - the 10 man got no tricks during scorpion (easily accountable for about 10M pure singletarget damage more, going by my own 10 man numbers on my DK alt).
Second -you are not reading the log correctly. Just because it is the fastest 10 man kill does not mean they utilised the scorpion to it fullest (and the same goes for 25 man). As an example, zoom in on the 10 man logs first gene splice, and see the damage taken by the monk. Over the entire duration, about 4.5M dmg is taken - 20% is the gene splice. 30% is stagger. 30% melee. And the remaining 20% random AOE.
Look at the DK's first gene splice. 8.2M taken - close to double the amount. This means more vengeance, and more damage. Equal dmg taken on second, and as the Brewmaster used his gene splice on Korven, Manipulator and Kilruk (3, 6 and as far as I can tell), he gets an extra use, as they don't need the dmg to push Xaril because of how easy he is in 10 man to deal with.
That being said, you are comparing two tanks of different specialisations. What you should be doing is taking something like the highest DK on 10 and 25, and comparing their damage - take
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...false%24143373

and

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...done&source=22

the 10 man had 43% of his overall dmg from scorpion, and the 25 man had 53%.
This still points to a stronger 25 man scorpion, BUT - Troxism got 3.5 uses of scorpion out (or a 18.76% uptime), while Anthor only had 14.07%. Suddenly, that makes the numbers *alot* closer - the majority of the extra 10% dmg is caused by the fact that the 25 man DK managed to sit in it for 4% longer (and consequently, had 4% less time to do "normal" damage, too).
That aside, Troxism took about 196K damage per second, and Anthor took about 177K damage per second. As we all know, the Scorpion scales better with attack power than "normal" dk abilities, making the gap even wider due to the higher damage taken in 25.
Essentially, what this proves is that considering *two dks*, rather than a DK vs a monk, the scorpion seems to have about the same amount of power.
The difference, however, comes from the fact that it's the same amount of power on one person, in both 10 and 25. Troxism did about 14.5% of the raids DPS. Anthor did about 25% of the raids dps. *THIS* is why the scorpion is so much stronger in 10 man, even if the 25 man one seems to do more damage. It's basic math, really.
Note that it's 3 AM and I have to get up at 7, so I didn't have time to check other classes like warrior vs warrior, or monk vs monk. I grabbed DK vs DK because I play a tank DK myself, so I actually have a clue about them, and your example used a DK. I might very well be proven wrong with other tank classes, but I don't *think* I will.

[quote]More chance on random deaths, when you have MORE players that can be hit by the abilities? I don't get it...

Multi-Shot: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=144839
(It seems like the first 4 Multi-Shot deal damage to one target less)
25man: 6-7 Hits, ~200k Damage each
10man: 3-4 Hits, ~190k Damage each
With 2,5x as much healers, that's not what I would call fair. ^^

Probably about right, don't have time to check. Multishot was never the big issue. It was the parasites (that's a shitton easier, Ill get to that) plus multishot, and then multishot plus fiery lines.

Parasites:
25man: 8spawns, 162k dps (1,3mil in total)
10man: 5spawns, 108k dps (540k in total)
They can be CC'ed and you can't deny that this isn't easier in 25man. Also you have 2,5x the healers to counter the first feeds before the CC works (and I don't want to start with the ridiciously insane heal-cooldowns in 25man...).

Actually, it's 16 parasites spawns in 25 man if you do the "skeer->rikkal->XXXXX" opener that most people tend to. You seem to forget that in 10 man, only one mutation goes out (which incidentally, means that if 3x melee gets targetted with mutation, they won't be in danger of dying due to a random multishot/parasite eating them at the same time - there's just the one amber mutation), while in 25, 3 goes out. That requires you to spawn parasites twice, while in 10 man, it requires you to spawn them once and then never again.
As for CC being easier, perhaps in your guild. There's too many random AOE's flying around from tanks, cloaks, pierces from hunter's glaive tosses etc etc etc to successfully CC the parasites for long in a 25 man, and even then, they will end up getting eaten fairly quickly anyway (as you have to go through 16 in the same period you go through 4 in 10 man). In 10 man, you have time to plan and carefully CC the parasites because you know that they will be around for the rest of the phase, and it's worth doing so.

I agree on that. In 10man we had our 2tanks do it and at higher stacks 1 dd helped out. In 25man you need ~6 with good cooldowns (rogues, shaman etc).

We just use 2 or 3 ranged with a disc priest healer. GG. But yea, it's *alot* more brutal in 25.

Fiery Edge: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=142808/fiery-edge
25man: 120k dps per edge (lowered by going further away)
10man: 110k dps per edge (lowered by going further away)

In reality:
25man: 4,58% Uptime, 104hits in 4 phases
10man: 7,60% Uptime, 64hits in 6 phases, if I only look at the first 4: 42hits

So the damage in relation to the playercount is exactly the same, but you have way stronger(and more) healing power and cooldowns in 25man, so that's not really an issue with proper cooldown organisation.

Completly wrong. You are, 1:
Not considering that with 2.5 times as many people, 2.5 times as many edges are being made. This, in turn, means that the chance of being hit by multiple lines is greater (especially for melee), and it gets harder to spread out with the lines because there's well... More of them to cover the space, funny enough. 25 man lines *will* do far more damage in a raid that applies the same strategy in 10 as 25. You don't know if the 10 man simply stacks closely because it's farm and they can handle it, and the 25 man spreads for safety, or vice versa. A single log is not really any valid evidence, but a simple understanding of the mechanic makes it glaringly obvious.

As stated above, scorpion is not an excuse. What spacing issue do you mean? Purple is not the problem, everyone leaves a small circle at his own position, Green doesn't do anything special you have to care about and Orange... iirc the size of the circles was a lot bigger in 10man than in 25man making it just as easy to dodge in both formats.

I already disproved your scorpion "theory", but that aside, orange is exactly the same in 10 and 25 alike. Only in 10, you get ~6 circles, while in 25, you get ~16 circles. As for Purple/Green - while one small buff might not seem like a major thing, remember that this is being thrown out during fiery edges. This gives 10 man a *gigantic* edge, giving them space to spread out between both abilities, while the 25 man is starting to get quite crammed in.
The fact that you think Orange is different in size between the difficulties, and that lines do the same damage etc, makes me question if you've ever done both encounters?

[quote]Like I said, more people -> more fails, and they are mostly deadly at this boss regardless of format. ^^

The tuning in this fight is nearly the same, the fail potential is just higher in 25man with 2,5x as much players. That is the reason why the guilds could need more tries in 25man. This is one of the few 25man bosses that are comparable to the difficulty of the 10man version imo. Most of the others are easier...[quote]
Complete and utter bullshit. But if you want to believe so, go on, I guess. 15% dmg from one player vs 25% raid dmg from one player says enough, really.

I use the 2 fights I posted at the beginning, both are the 10th fastest fights in their format.
What is the main difference here? The damage of the healers, in the 25man raid they do 92,3k dps in total which is 1/3 of an average dd. In the 10man raid they do 235k, which is 4/5 of a full dd.
Calculating the extra damage of the tanks you have 21 dd's in 25man vs. 9 in 10man.
This shows why they were able to kill the boss 1min faster, the explanation is not that it's easier. ^^

PS: I play 25man atm.

Aaaaand you forget about the scorpion wrecking the encounter because your math done on it is bullshit. Peace out, sleep awaits me.