[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Lyese]

"If you want to do damage in pvp as a paladin, then I'd say that ret is your spec. It just so happens that it's outshined by the reality that holy paladins are much more likely to help your team win." http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/04/24/ka...n-retribution/

EDIT: Going to fix a comment on another post. Got a name mixed up, my fault. >.<

Some history reading, but it is a rant. http://lorddictator.blogspot.com/200...din-nerfs.html

"From April until the game shipped, the vast majority of my time was spent working on the design for the auction house, the mail system, and implementing the talent trees for every class. I was the only person available to do that -- our other class designer, Kevin Jordan, was mainly focused on ensuring that all of the classes had spells and abilities up to level 60, and managing the flow of when you'd get which ability. "
http://wow.joystiq.com/tag/kalgan/ Second article down, the full interview link is dead. Considering he designed Vanilla's absolutely asinine PLD talents, it's no wonder why we were in sorry shape.

"In fact, Kalgan's post back in 2007 is somewhat telling of Blizzard's attitude towards balance. He said that Paladins were "grossly over-represented" at that time, even though this was merely the beginning of Season 1. Those nerfs led to Paladins becoming the worst represented class in the 3v3 (the format of professional Arena play) months later (2nd worst in 2v2 and 2nd best in 5v5). I think Blizzard has improved a lot in their attitude and sensibilities since then, but the stigma remains."
http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/02/18/ar...fed/#continued

http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/10/12/re...d-or-betrayed/
We know how those buffs turned out. In fact, hasn't the issue always been sustained vs burst?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Things change Lyese, things change.

[Lyese]

Things change Lyese, things change.

I've been playing this game for 9 years. Some classes go from OP to UP in a patch/expac, but we can always count on Ret to be middle or lower, except for that fateful 3.0 launch and the short time in ICC.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I've been playing this game for 9 years. Some classes go from OP to UP in a patch/expac, but we can always count on Ret to be middle or lower, except for that fateful 3.0 launch and the short time in ICC.

Yeah and Kalgan didn't have anything to do with it. If you think Kalgan purposely tries to balance Paladins badly I think you need to go to a conspiricy theory website.

[Lyese]

Yeah and Kalgan didn't have anything to do with it. If you think Kalgan purposely tries to balance Paladins badly I think you need to go to a conspiricy theory website.

Probably. I mean, it's definitely not feasible now, since WoW is much bigger, but it's something that more than likely went down years and years ago when you had 2-3 guys in charge of all class' balance.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't deny Paladins and class balance overall during Vanilla wasn't great. I agree and TBH MMO's should at least TRY to fix that shit before releasing(Those that are starting). But that's a digressing thought so don't mind me.

[Rathimis]

I think I've linked his posts/comments/etc. on everything ever having to do with Paladins (His hatred for them stems from his EQ days when he played with Tigole and Furor, who was notorious for "server crashing protests" when a PLD outtanked him in Plane of Power, an EQ expac) enough, but if you really want, I can dig them up again. He really, truly, deeply hates PLDs. It seriously does not bode well if they moved Titan devs back onto WoW.

That old paladin battle in EQ was pretty bad. Paladin's got sent down the shitter so bad we couldn't keep agro at all for like a year, while shadowknights got all our tools. It was a long ugly battle just to get enough agro on our stuns to keep agro, from being the kings of agro. There was no way such an obvious oversight like that was anything but punitive. I doubt that old hatred will ever die for any of us that waged that war =P

[Lyese]

That old paladin battle in EQ was pretty bad. Paladin's got sent down the shitter so bad we couldn't keep agro at all for like a year, while shadowknights got all our tools. It was a long ugly battle just to get enough agro on our stuns to keep agro, from being the kings of agro. There was no way such an obvious oversight like that was anything but punitive. I doubt that old hatred will ever die for any of us that waged that war =P

Hear, hear, for another old gun.

[ruiizu]

If it did affect DS as well, then the other 2 choices wouldn't really matter at all or would scarcely be picked, currently.

My concern is that I see some people suggesting Empowered Seals should be higher DPS than Final Verdict "if played right," but if that were the case, it would provide superior damage in both single target and AE situations, making Final Verdict the inferior choice to good players all the time. To me, it would make Final Verdict like Holy Prism: always the wrong choice (even though I actually loved Holy Prism in practice, just not numerically).

Personally, I know it would destroy the whole point that some people want out of Empowered Seals, but I feel like the buff it grants should be exclusive. It becomes passive, but only in the sense that you aren't juggling GCDs "just because." Your choice of seal still has a big impact, it just makes you better at whatever seal you're using.

I'm not sure about Empowered Seals vs. Final Verdict in PvP just yet. Huge, armor ignoring hit vs. 20% faster all the time is a tough call.

[Pigglix]

Yeah...since i've heard about Kalgan comming to WoD and Furor and Tigole (not sure about these two) and GC leaving...my guts start to act weird like.."it will be BC bullshit all over again"

And my fears got confirmed with the empowered seals bullshit talent.

Hope they dont gut FV because of pures complaining about "ret doing good dmg as them".

Also, i think a nice change for Exo/AoW would be something like:
When AoW proc, your next Exo will do 50% more dmg or it will give one additional holy power.

[Monoroth]

I've been playing this game for 9 years. Some classes go from OP to UP in a patch/expac, but we can always count on Ret to be middle or lower, except for that fateful 3.0 launch and the short time in ICC.

Don't forget that 4.3 one day of lol storm.
Sadly this bug never appeared on my old realm.

[Lyese]

Man...DivStorm has always been a rather fickle attack.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What about the Cata bug that made Rets hit super hard that was supposed to fix one thing but bugged Paladins lol

[ruiizu]

What about the Cata bug that made Rets hit super hard that was supposed to fix one thing but bugged Paladins lol

Nothing quite like the beginning of Wrath beta, when Art of War made Judgment occasionally deal 2x damage, but Judgment of Command still did double damage against stunned targets, netting some 20k crits with Judgment of Command back when players had around 10-12k HP.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Nothing quite like the beginning of Wrath beta, when Art of War made Judgment occasionally deal 2x damage, but Judgment of Command still did double damage against stunned targets, netting some 20k crits with Judgment of Command back when players had around 10-12k HP.

...Nah this bug made it Censure could stack....a lot.

[anaxie]

One huge and easy workaround for making Emp seals work is to have the the duration stack per judgement. such as. Each judge gives u a 20 second buff and each one is rolled into the remaining time of the buff. Caps at maybe 2-3 mins?

THEN it's a workable non shit clunky talent.

- - - Updated - - -

...Nah this bug made it Censure could stack....a lot.

We didn't have early in Wrath. It was Command a PROPER AoE seal that rightiousness fails horribly at replacing. and Blood. Until blood was replaced somewhere after Ulduar.

Infact how insulting is that? We had a proper AoE seal and we swapped ALL the time in Wrath. Now Rightiousness is a shell of what command used to be. Isn't this disgusting?

- - - Updated - - -

Infact I feel seals are the CORE of retribution. EMpowered seal should have EXCLUSIVE buffs active ONLY with the seal like a stance. Fuck judging and "twisting"

Rework seals entirely similar to wrath where the seal hits were a substantial part of our DPS. It's AMAZING for sustained to actually have it this way.

Then you can flesh out a proper defensive, AoE, and Single Target seal solving every single fucking ret problem in the game. I know it just so hard to ask for some non half assed class design but doesn't this sound alot better then well... ANYTHING they have tried to design in the last 2 expansions?

[Lyese]

You know, you're right. Command wasn't garbage in Wrath, whereas Right is. COINCIDENCE?!?!

I do agree with making the buffs mutually exclusive. In fact, it could promote situational awareness. Blizz, however, doesn't care enough to really implement that.

[anaxie]

Suggestions? Well first of all Truth can simply be 20% ap. Rightiousness can be something entertaining to play with 25% Multistrike? And make rightiousness proc off DS as it should. Insight buff seems legit on Emp Seals while in insight and doing less damage since Truth is a much more core part of our damage you have that 5% every 2 sec HP regen. Justice is an easy one. 25% move speed + snares

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You mistake not caring for most likely disagreeing. I don't mind making Empowered Seals better then the original implementation.

[anaxie]

You mistake not caring for most likely disagreeing.

Trust me if they gave a shit they would do something that makes us care about rightiousness for what it is, among exo, and all our vanilla attacks that do absolutely nothing.

Sadly no matter how you spin it. We are low priority because things like this is shit we have been asking for for multiple expansions.

How many yearsr have we screamed reduce CD reliance? That sure as hell isn't going anywhere.