Bonus roll system now replaces Valor?

[dexx]

If you look at MoP in current tier, there is no need for valor loot as TI can get you just about everything you need to jump into SoO LFR.

Consensus seems to be that its not about getting gear for LFR. Its about buying a current tier piece with valor - ideal for that stubborn piece that refuses to drop.

So no need for valor as it currently doesnt even offer current content level loot anyways.

But it used to. Even just last tier you could buy ilvl 522 pieces with valor. I miss that.

Yes, because an item some 30+ item levels behind the current tier is worth wasting your valor points on.

Exactly! thats the other point. Valor should buy you current tier 'normal' gear.

[Gray_Matter]

No its not, because a class change affects everyone equally as badly. RNG is RNG, I had a bad tier in t13 I got over 14 helms and no trinket, in t14 I got a load of waists, in T15 I've had a load of Helms again. All they need to do is reduce the RNG of the actual loot you get, increase the 'bad luck' roll bonus, and we have no issue. If Blizzard created a bonus roll that every 3-4 guaranteed an item you needed then that would fix it. What you're saying is the bonus roll is just broken and can't be fixed. It can, and easily. RNG is not the issue, its how RNG is the RNG, having RNG on whether you get loot, then RNG on whether that loot is useful to you is the only issue.

They can't do this. Serious raiders will just hoard coins for the BiS items and it will only take them 3-4 weeks to get the item. They have to keep the element of RNG in place to keep people coming back week after week trying to get that elusive trinket/weapon/X. At least with valor there was a way to fill in the gaps while waiting for X. The best they will do is reduce the dup drop rate, rare items will still remain just that rare.

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False, they have already stated that gear from 5 mans will be comparable/better than gear from LFR. Therefore if you don't raid you can get comparable gear to the lowest raid tier in 5 mans, if you do raid then you prepare for raiding by using 5 mans and not LFR. So in essence Blizzard are removing what we have this tier, which is all eggs in one basket.

That's just more RNG. How is grinding dungeons any better than farming raids? The answer is to reward people for doing things out in the world. Different things, dungeons, raids, quests, etc. They can then use that hard earned currency to buy stuff in game like decent (not great) loot. The valor should be something you get out of raids (and other things), not something you need to earn to do raids.

[Buu]

Patch 6.1: Valor and gear vendors are back.

[Gray_Matter]

Bonus rolls are so much better in every way. Valor gear is only relevant the first 2-3 weeks of a patch. And if valor upgrades can be chosen instead of valor gear? Then hell yes, why even bother with that bad itemized gear? Bonus rolls gives you a higher chance of that BiS item of heroic quality that has been eluding you. It's infinitely better and it smooths out the really shitty RNG a lot.

Then why can't they let people buy coins with the valor? At the start of an exp, it fills the gaps after that you can use it to get more chances. 2 weeks of valor is enough for 1 normal raid ilvl item and also for 6 coins.

[Templis]

I love the coin system, although I wish you would be able to get more than 3 a week.

[Srg56]

"Valor Points were previously used to offset bad luck in getting raid drops, but the bonus roll system now fills that role."

UM no it doesn't. With the Bonus roll system i have a "CHANCE" to get gear. And a really low chance considering how BAD the "RNG" is. With valor it isn't a CHANCE at gear, its a GUARANTEED temporary replacement until I get LUCKY enough to get something. How did they come to the conclusion that the bonus rolls fills the role of valor????????

Here, let me translate that for you: "People are getting gear too fast, or they will get gear too fast in WoD, we can't have that." That's basically it.

[Deleted]

Um, yes it does.

Never before in the history of WoW have you had the option to not only re-roll for loot, but do it as many times as you want as long as you have coins. I've managed to get 4p tier in one day on my hunter from bonus rolls. One day.

Now, I don't agree with the idea of removing currencies. I like the upgrade system with VP now combined with bonus rolls. I don't want the change. But definitely bonus rolls are superior to valor in terms of getting gear.

There exist a few people who for some reason seem to get loot on most of their coin rolls. Let me assure you that its not the way it works for most of us.

From the top of my head i think i've had something like a 10% chance to get loot with each coiin i've used. That makes around 22-30% chance for a piece of loot each week. Valor not only gave more then that, it also allowed you to choose that piece of loot that you just didnt seem to be able to get.

Lets say we get a piece of loot from coins once every third week. Now you have to figure in rerolling the same boss week after week after week for 1 specific drop on a boss that can drop 5 different items for you.

Its insanely, insanely unpredictable and extremely frustrating. It might be the worst form of loot system they have ever come up with.

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You're limited to total coins you have. Max of 10, which is achievable if you haven't used coins in a few weeks. Unless you're just starting out this week, there are absolutely bosses that you need nothing from.

Well, one, VP can't buy gear for the SoO tier. So already the bonus roll is superior. Two, the bonus roll can also award warforged gear, which is an improvement over the normal 553/540/528 that drops from SoO (though I don't think that works in LFR). Three, the bonus roll can award gold which...well, honestly is pretty damn useful for a guild wiping a lot on a specific boss.

Seems like you didnt get his point here. You are limited to three coins per week. Most people who raid use those three coins every week.

[draykorinee]

How exactly it worked? I coined 9 fucking times in a row on HC protectors and didnt get shit. I got my fucking sha trinket after 3 months, but hey, I got 3 fucking chests. If that means works fine, then I dont know how it looks when something doesnt work fine.

Where did I say mods have to agree with me? Dont accuse me of something I've never said, please.

It worked fine, I went the whole of Karazhan, nearly a whole expansion and never got kings defender until the last 2 months, RNG happens.

Secondly, you say

Cant believe some people are tryind to defend this, even mods.

Ergo, mods don't agree with me on this, and they should.

[Deleted]

Let's see, 1000 valor a week, so that's 2000 every two weeks. Less than what valor gear coses. and from what I have seen it is nigh impossible to not get gear in 6 bonus rolls. where there is a chance to get more.

So yeah, whiner/complainer/bitcher. It is better than valor

Not only that, but valor gear is usually shitty, chance at teir? not bad at all.

I do however hope they keep gear upgrades, but only on the odd numbered patches

Except 3/4 of the times you DO get gear on rerolls you get gear pieces you dont need.

Valour items where not allways shit? They where allmost allways on level with the raid gear. The stat allocating just cant fit everyone, but next expansion they are balancing the secondaries for all.

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It worked fine, I went the whole of Karazhan, nearly a whole expansion and never got kings defender until the last 2 months, RNG happens.

Secondly, you say



Ergo, mods don't agree with me on this, and they should.

¨

You have never been able to get weapons from valor gear, for a reason. Weapons are meant to be something speciel, and kings defender was indeed speciel. That said i got it on my first time in a kara pug.

[draykorinee]

Its insanely, insanely unpredictable and extremely frustrating. It might be the worst form of loot system they have ever come up with.

The RNG loot system? The one that existed at the start of Wow? Or the one that gives people another chance at loot at the expense of a gauranteed loot?

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You have never been able to get weapons from valor gear, for a reason. Weapons are meant to be something speciel, and kings defender was indeed speciel. That said i got it on my first time in a kara pug.

Indeed, being lucky and getting gear has always been a big part of the gearing proccess.

[Gray_Matter]

Indeed, being lucky and getting gear has always been a big part of the gearing proccess.

One small difference. The world is different now to what it was when WOW started. WOW is different to what it was 2 years ago. People no longer have 20-40 hours to invest in WOW every week. If WOW doesn't adapt to the market, it will die. If people don't feel like they are being rewarded then they will just quit playing and move to another game of which there are plenty.

[The High Druid]

I'm really dubious about this.

It's replacing a steady "I know what I am going to get" system with randomness, so that's more frustration for players.

It likely means the gear-upgrade system goes away so we're back to wide-scale raid nerfs when guild progression rates drop off each tier, either that or yet more frustration for guilds that will need to wait for the next tier to start to be capable of finishing the previous one.

It replaces one of the catch-up systems making it harder for late-comers/replacements to become raid ready (maybe not an issue in first tier with the heroic dungeons but it will bite on the following tiers).

And finally, why take a gameplay system that non-raiders can use to progress their characters that has existed for at least 6 years?

[Doktor Faustus]

The said they are makes the bonus roll system 'smarter'.

So, when changes are implemented it should be quicker bonus rolling than grinding valour for gear.

This is work in progress, so just sit back and relax, await more information.

[The High Druid]

Well smart bonus rolls would only answer the first of my four concerns there, the rest would still be a problem.

Bonus rolls would have to be pretty much guaranteed to give an item every 7 rolls to be on-par with the valor system . . . less if it's still possible to get duplicates / "wrong" items.

[Deleted]

Patch 6.1: Valor and gear vendors are back.

I think that the vendors will be there from the start, but valor is not needed because they can require rep and sell for gold. There are too many players who play WoW as a solo game. The only item upgrades solo players can get are (in MoP):

- craftable items
- valor and rep items
- catch-up content like Battlefield Barrens or Timeless Isle

Removing valor and not adding alternative routes for solo players would mean that:

- they would have to wear mostly questing gear until the first catch-up event
- daily questing and rep would lose their added value

[draykorinee]

Well smart bonus rolls would only answer the first of my four concerns there, the rest would still be a problem.

Bonus rolls would have to be pretty much guaranteed to give an item every 7 rolls to be on-par with the valor system . . . less if it's still possible to get duplicates / "wrong" items.

Or if you get 3 items from those 7 bonus rolls, it is substantially better than the valor system.

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One small difference. The world is different now to what it was when WOW started. WOW is different to what it was 2 years ago. People no longer have 20-40 hours to invest in WOW every week. If WOW doesn't adapt to the market, it will die. If people don't feel like they are being rewarded then they will just quit playing and move to another game of which there are plenty.

Well, either we tell people to go grind valor every week to get guaranteed gear, or we improve bonus rolls to the point where actually grinding content is not needed anymore. Bonus rolls, absolutely can fill the role of Valor if done properly.

[Raeln]

I don't believe that is a fair comparison to what I said, which was that you have full control over which bosses you spend bonus rolls on. If you got three coins, and the next three bosses you killed had a bonus loot shot, or I claimed that it didn't matter what loot you had, sure, that is a reasonable objection.

Instead, I stand by my view: if you have three bonus rolls, and can spend them on any three bosses you want, *any* loot win from the three is good if each boss has some upgrade for you. It may not be your perfect, first choice (*cough* thok amp trinket for me *cough*) but it is still good. (...and, yes, if you only have one or two bosses with upgrades, you may lose that, which I think is reasonable -- because your gear is pretty damn awesome at that point.

I am going to still prefer a system where I can do many forms of endgame content, save that currency - and eventually go to a vendor and buy the piece I want over a system that is extremely limited to only one type of endgame content and then even further limited to one individual boss for the piece of gear I need most.

Sure. OTOH, your personal gear level improved, so the challenge of the next clear is reduced. Mission accomplished: you didn't get BiS, but you got more powerful. Nice work. If the upgrade is a big enough difference, you can even waste *gasp* your bonus rolls for a week by sitting on them and only rolling on the big upgrade. Trade off speed of upgrades for reliability of upgrades -- that actually sounds like an interesting decision to me.

I'd rather have the ability to plan AND be able to contribute to that plan more than one time a week. The Valor system works fine for me (if the vendors are kept updated) because it lets me play far more content the other 6 days of the week and still "add to" my progress. The bonus roll system stops working the moment I spend the coin on the boss I need the loot from. If I don't get that piece and that boss drops an awesome upgrade, then it may be in my best interest to not spend coins for bonus rolls on bosses that drop lesser upgrades - where is the fun in that?

In the context of a bonus roll system tuned to avoid that (eg: the one in WoD, which is what we are discussing, not the current system) the odds of that are reduced but... honestly? I mostly raid normals, and have seen multiple duplicate items sharded because nobody needed them any more. Forget about bonus rolls, this is exactly how loot has worked, oh, forever. Ditto 5H dungeons, and more or less any other content other than quests.

I mean, I don't disagree in some ways: quests with their certainty of reward, and selectability of reward, definitely reward gear more predictably than raids and dungeons. Valor purchase is aiming for the same: predictability. I don't think that is as important as you are making out, but also, is something that Blizzard have been explicit about tuning in WoD.

5-man heroic dungeons can drop duplicate items because you can run them 7 times more often than a raid boss each week. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but "the fun" of killing raid bosses week after week and seeing the same RNG items drop (to then be sharded) get old years ago. This is why I vastly prefer a currency system to prevent players from getting screwed by strange RNG patterns.

As for being important - DPS'ing with a subpar weapon is not fun. Blizzard likes to lock weapons up behind specific raid bosses. While actually getting lucky and winning a weapon is fun for the moment you get it - burning weeks of coins on that specific boss just so you aren't put to shame on the meters is not.

I'm not advocating putting the absolute best stuff on a Valor vendor, but there needs to be some weapons purchasable so that people can at least be slightly competitive. The 476 weapons on TI should have been 496 with random stats, like the rest of the TI stuff.

That is a question for Blizzard, not me: right now the pinnacle of character power comes from raid gear, and nothing equivalent is available in the world without it. (Not that this is new, since the valor purchased gear was definitely not the BiS gear when it was available.) I think it would be interesting to see alternate paths for power increase, but I suspect the view inside the walls is that raid gearing power is aimed at clearing raids, just like pvp gearing is aimed at pvp, and non-raid, non-pvp gearing is aimed at clearing non-raid, non-pvp content. (eg: a fully BiS dungeon reward set should make it easy, but not trivial, to clear dungeons, etc.)

Ultimately, though, this is a discussion about how the choice to drop valor purchasing in favor of bonus rolls for the current Blizzard character gearing model works, I think. In that framework, "smarter" WoD style bonus rolls don't seem like nearly the end of the world to me that they do to you, which is fine.

Maybe the outcry will shape this, and they will drop in something else, like meaningful progression through crafting without raiding. I honestly doubt it, because that feels more P2W (to me) than the jump-to-90 does, but I don't work for blizzard, so what do I know?

(Specifically: getting gold is a matter of time or money invested, nothing more, hence being able to get gear equivalent to current raid tier for gold (via crafting) ~= paying in time or money to get the progression without the work involved in raiding. I understand this is probably not the common view on the subject.)

My take is this is a portion of the reason why gamers are suspected of leaving the MMORPG genre, as Ghostcrawler alluded to. Personally, I'm hanging by a thread. I love the feel of belonging to a large server of other players and bumping into strangers out in the wilds. I love grouping with a few closer friends (or strangers even) and dungeon crawling. I'm not opposed to world raids that are quickly and automatically built (think: Rift invasions) - but I am beyond tired of raids that are intended to emulate dungeon crawling. I'm beyond tired of spending hours in a raid zone while waiting for people to show up or get back from an AFK and I'm also tired of being expected to suspend my disbelief that that raid boss in front of me is supposed to be a 100,000 ton behemoth of a beast that can squish my character in one stomp but because a tank is a tank, they can parry that huge claw (which is exponentially bigger than they are) with their small weapon.

Aside from just easier to make happen, I prefer small group content because it doesn't require the bosses to be exaggerated to such extents - this is likely the end result of a MMORPG player that has spent over a decade raiding in some form or another. Let me just end with saying that if I could get WoW with all the endgame as co-op, I would buy and play WoW with all the endgame content as co-op.

It is very likely that while I still adore almost everything outside of raiding in WoW - that I may just need to find something else.

[Esandarius]

[QUOTE=Darsithis;25740805]I've managed to get 4p tier in one day on my hunter from bonus rolls. One day.
QUOTE]

This is anecdotal and not helpful to the discussion. Based on the old system it would be possible to do the same thing without bonus rolls. You could walk into MC right now and get full tier 1 in one run, but that doesn't mean there were plenty of people who never saw the single drop they needed. For every person with your lucky run, there is a person with the opposite experience. The drop rates average out over the population.

[Raeln]

I think judging by this thread thats clearly not the case. Also nearly every other MMO and every RPG uses RNG, so in truth, players like RNG.

When I go to other games and see they have dozens of currency types, the first thing that leaps out to me is not RNG. It leads me to believe they are trying to minimize RNG because guess what...

... many players hate RNG, especially when it comes to bosses with long lockouts.

[Noomz]

Um, yes it does.

Never before in the history of WoW have you had the option to not only re-roll for loot, but do it as many times as you want as long as you have coins. I've managed to get 4p tier in one day on my hunter from bonus rolls. One day.

Now, I don't agree with the idea of removing currencies. I like the upgrade system with VP now combined with bonus rolls. I don't want the change. But definitely bonus rolls are superior to valor in terms of getting gear.

As many time as I want? I havent experienced that.. It's just once per boss, no?

The bonus rolls are an absolutely terrible way to do this. It's very, very rare that I ever get anything but gold from them. Valor lets me get something that I myself choose, when I want. The only problem was that they hid the valor stuff behind rep, which was a horrendously bad decision.