Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Edoran]

By attaching flight to the Loremaster achievement, you are making it available to one playstyle.

What if you could only fly after winning 50 battlegrounds? Would you like that? Or maybe killing every boss in the first tier on normal? Not everybody enjoys the lore or questing.

[DarkArchon]

Loremaster doesn't work because to put it frankly no one gives a shit about old content and wants to go threw it. This is about new content.

The point is after you've reached 100 you shouldn't be able to turn the world off and fly over it, you should have to deal with it and constantly be apart of it. If you don't want to be that's what a city or town is for, but if you venture out you should have too.

[rebecca191]

It's hard to take you seriously when your willing to 'vote with your wallet' before you even step foot in Draenor, just proves your not even willing to entertain the thought you might actually like it and what they did with the game. That's how strong your arrogance is. Leaving a game strictly because i can't ride my dragon is childish at best, kicking your feet throwing tandems in a attempt to eventually get your way.

Except it's more like "Blizzard has tried no flying content in multiple ways for years, it has never felt tolerable to me at all except for limited PvP areas like instanced battlegrounds, and I value my time and money too much to spend any of it on a game entirely made up of the content I have always hated the most."

Also, I "win" either way I suppose.

If they change it, I can enjoy WoW again.
If they don't change it, I can avoid wasting time and money on something that I would have hated.

I really, really hate no fly content. How much do I have to try before I can just freaking say that it's not the game for me? Why do I have to waste time and money on a game designed around something I hate? At least before no fly zones weren't the only new content in an entire expansion.

If Blizz wants to give me WoD for free, that would be one thing (though it would still probably be a total waste of time). I shouldn't be obligated to spend money on something that looks terrible to be able to say I think the game is going in such a terrible direction that it's not even worth wasting any money or time on.

By the way, you don't seem to realize not everyone plays or experiences the game the way you do. I feel more apart of the world while flying. Flying restrictions feel so damn artificial, make the world feel smaller and closed off since your travel is so restricted, and cause me to focus more on avoiding obstacles and less on the story. The quests I went back and did after 90 to complete Loremaster were a million times more enjoyable. I couldn't even tell you the story for the quests I did while leveling, I spent too much of the time avoiding obstacles and the rest of the time rushing so I could get back to enjoyable gameplay with flying once I hit max level. I should have just done pet battles and dungeon grinding and did all the quests at 90, honestly.

I hated being ground restricted in Pandaria so much that the only alt I could endure leveling was during Halloween when I got most of the xp from candy buckets and doing each dungeon once. I think the only quests that character did at all were to unlock the farm. Timeless Isle was such a terrible zone that I would actually go there when I had insomnia due to a medical problem and it would help me fall asleep. Yep, that's the kindest thing I can say about Blizz's no fly content, it helped me fall asleep.

[DarkArchon]

Except it's more like "Blizzard has tried no flying content in multiple ways for years, it has never felt tolerable to me at all except for limited PvP areas like instanced battlegrounds, and I value my time and money too much to spend any of it on a game entirely made up of the content I have always hated the most."

Also, I "win" either way I suppose.

If they change it, I can enjoy WoW again.
If they don't change it, I can avoid wasting time and money on something that I would have hated.

I really, really hate no fly content. How much do I have to try before I can just freaking say that it's not the game for me? Why do I have to waste time and money on a game designed around something I hate? At least before no fly zones weren't the only new content in an entire expansion.

If Blizz wants to give me WoD for free, that would be one thing (though it would still probably be a total waste of time). I shouldn't be obligated to spend money on something that looks terrible to be able to say I think the game is going in such a terrible direction that it's not even worth wasting any money or time on.

I guess so...Obviously you can do whatever you want. Just personally i'd give it a whirl before throwing in the towel. Little premature for such drastic action.

[-Superman-]

Loremaster doesn't work because to put it frankly no one gives a shit about old content and wants to go threw it. This is about new content.

The point is after you've reached 100 you shouldn't be able to turn the world off and fly over it, you should have to deal with it and constantly be apart of it. If you don't want to be that's what a city or town is for, but if you venture out you should have too.

Again, you are missing the point. I am talking about Loremaster Draenor. Complete the 100 quests per zone in all the NEW content. Each new expac has its own Loremaster. You would only have to complete the CURRENT zones Loremaster, not the entire Loremaster achievement.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah and then what happens after you went threw it once? That's the point. This is a MMO not a game where you play threw it once and it's done. It's meant to have continued replay. Your not supposed to do it once and never be bothered again with it. And all the same problems will still exist like they do today, most people level in the first month then it's back to sitting in the cities and flying over the content. It does sabotage it. Just not on immediate release.

Then offer a solution. I am trying to find some middle ground, but anti-fliers are not making it easy. I know there is a way to achieve a balance and retain flight. Maybe instead of shooting everything down, you could think outside the box and devise a solution. Or are you afraid you will come up with something that MIGHT actually be feasible and shoot a hole in your entire debate?

[rebecca191]

I guess so...Obviously you can do whatever you want. Just personally i'd give it a whirl before throwing in the towel. Little premature for such drastic action.

Not all of us have unlimited money and time to throw at things that look bad. I'm a parent and I definitely value those things in a way I didn't back in vanilla when I could do whatever I wanted all the time (and even then I thought "this #### is so stupid" about travel and "thank god!" about the flying mounts being added in BC). I really can't justify trying an expansion that looks so damn terrible. I have plenty of BC nostalgia so the idea of flying around seeing the zones undestroyed would have been fun but.... nope, I MIGHT get to do that after a few months, but I don't trust Blizzard at all on that, I think they are now being misleading and might not add it back at all. There isn't even the light at the end of the tunnel like there was in Wrath at 77 and MoP at 90. It doesn't end and it may never end.

[Mafic]

WoW became the elite MMORPG and champion because of flight IMVHO. Take it away and it starts to resemble a Korean grinder. I can go play a Korean grinder now and don't have to wait for WoD to come out.

Flying dragons is a big part of medieval fantasy RPG's. If you can't accept the rich history of dragons and flight with the human imagination well tough luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qC2P7QYjaE

If you are old enough you understand this clip haha.

[falinos]

It does enrich my experience. Flying on a dragon/other fantasy creature is just freaking FUN and provides a much better exploring view. The game feels different with flying, in a better way. For those of you that just see flying as faster transportation nothing more, I don't think you will understand the viewpoint of those of us for whom it isn't just a speed increase (though that speed increase can enhance the game if it allows the player to spend the time on the content they love instead of being frustrated by trudging along through disliked content).

Also, this is a freaking GAME. A GAME. What is the primary purpose a game? Fun. If someone doesn't find it fun for whatever reason, they are totally justified in saying #### that and taking their money elsewhere. I am not obligated to give Blizzard money to try something I think looks freaking awful. Myself and anyone else who hates no flying has no obligation to spend money trying this out. The game isn't free, it takes money and time. So if I want to get out my pitchfork and say this particular decision is my limit and I won't play with it under any circumstances, I am entitled to vote with my wallet just as you can vote that you like it by paying for it.



That is your problem right there with understanding the viewpoint of most people who really like flying. You insist this is about an objective truth, but it isn't. It's about a subjective gameplay preference.

So if you are all like "flying dragons are fun not just a speed increase" how would you feel about all flying mounts being nerfed to 60% like in BC(minus the super rich.) I'd be tolerant of that compromise.

[Mafic]

So if you are all like "flying dragons are fun not just a speed increase" how would you feel about all flying mounts being nerfed to 60% like in BC(minus the super rich.) I'd be tolerant of that compromise.

Blizz is determined to sell a can of snakes oil because they know that a flying mount at 60% speed is still better than a land mount.

Look at how BIG the WoD continent is and the geomorphology from the topographic view of the maps released. They are not making this continent easy to traverse on a land mount and this is a purposeful choice to waste time like Korean grinders do.

I rather see them work on content (year long drought looks like) than putting in artificial sinks like this.

[rebecca191]

So if you are all like "flying dragons are fun not just a speed increase" how would you feel about all flying mounts being nerfed to 60% like in BC(minus the super rich.) I'd be tolerant of that compromise.

If the content were really really good I'd be okay with slower flying since I'd still get to explore in the air, but if the content weren't that great slower travel would make things even worse.

[DarkArchon]

Again, you are missing the point. I am talking about Loremaster Draenor. Complete the 100 quests per zone in all the NEW content. Each new expac has its own Loremaster. You would only have to complete the CURRENT zones Loremaster, not the entire Loremaster achievement.

- - - Updated - - -



Then offer a solution. I am trying to find some middle ground, but anti-fliers are not making it easy. I know there is a way to achieve a balance and retain flight. Maybe instead of shooting everything down, you could think outside the box and devise a solution. Or are you afraid you will come up with something that MIGHT actually be feasible and shoot a hole in your entire debate?

Am not missing any point. Even if it's only Loremaster for current zones it's still bypassing the game after doing it once. A solution would be to have 5 places you can save your hearthstone too so you'll usually be fairly close to where you want too but still be apart of the world.

[Rankin]

Am not missing any point. Even if it's only Loremaster for current zones it's still bypassing the game after doing it once. A solution would be to have 5 places you can save your hearthstone too so you'll usually be fairly close to where you want too but still be apart of the world.

And what does "a part of the world" actually mean? And what's being bypassed? The daily quests and events that you'll do until you get bored of them? There's not going to be any valor, so there's going to be almost no incentive to actually do anything unless you really want to go out and do it, which means that removing flying is meaningless.

[Deleted]

Blizz is determined to sell a can of snakes oil because they know that a flying mount at 60% speed is still better than a land mount.

Look at how BIG the WoD continent is and the geomorphology from the topographic view of the maps released. They are not making this continent easy to traverse on a land mount and this is a purposeful choice to waste time like Korean grinders do.

I rather see them work on content (year long drought looks like) than putting in artificial sinks like this.

Hmpf, now the korean grinder argument arises. Did you say the same thing when you looked at the initial vanilla map as well? It's highly laughable that people regard that as an indication of grinding.
I hope you're aware that these Korean grinders are designed in another fashion: They deliberately designed have sparsely spread content so that you'd have to resort aimlessly killing boars in order to get to the next quest even. If anything, with the information they released regarding the directive questing system to actually lead players into the direction of quests and actual content to do directly contradicts any fcking point you're trying to make here.

If anything, the size of the map is only an indication of one thing: variety. They're mostly going to try to invoke that sense of wonder and awe and throw back at the nostalgia of TBC by having a wide set of differing environments that are vaguely reminiscent of the original TBC zones.
Hell, even back in TBC, those who actually had access to the 60% mount would often resort to their ground mount still in places where it was considerably faster.

Besides, let me explain how the business model of these chinese and korean grinders goes: You pay for the minutes you play, it's more like a phonebill or prepaid phone card rather than a subscription to a cable channel. Whether leveling content for wow players takes 10 days or 15 days to complete for the first surge of players in Draenor is of little importance to them. What does it buy them? Time? For what? For end game content that is already in the game?
You've already paid for your month, while Korean Grinders count the hours you play and charge you accordingly. What does Blizzard care if you log in once a week or on a daily basis? In fact, they'd be happier from a business perspective that you play less because it is less costs for them in terms of server space. But with a subscription based MMO they're only interested in keeping you here for the next month(s). And they know that what keeps people playing is their social peers and endgame content. The question content is nice and fun to experience once. But it is still needed because it gives context to the big baddies you're going to fight inside the endgame content, which further adds a sense of scale to that particular part of the game.

This is the problem with silly conspiracy theories such as yours. They focus on one thing, such as map topology and the few screenshot they have released and draw that to the flight restriction, while at the same thing completely ignoring other changes such as how main story quests go, and how they'll be directing players to them.
They shove elements that don't fit within their theory under the rug like they don't exist.

Flight is not why it became the "elite mmo", it is because of solid design in the early development stages and an attention to detail and polish that lead them thusfar. Else the game would have died once they started to restrict flying in added in patch zones such as IQD, firelands, timeless isle, and other content intended for max level players but which exist out of instances and battlegrounds. So that retarded statement holds no water.
They took elements from other games that improved upon them and made the whole genre of the fantasy mmorpg genre more accessible to players outside of the ones that were already enamored by competing products such as Everquest.
The new unfound openness and forgiving nature introduced more new players into the genre as a whole, back when it was still in it's infancy. I remember this as clear as day, my friends who already played these competing MMOs back then scoffed at how WoW was for casual newbies and that the game wasn't punishing enough. They wanted to have mechanics in play such as losing all your shit upon death, etc. And yet they all flocked to the game. Why? Because people don't know what they want. They say one thing, yet their actions prove otherwise.

A multiplayer game, and especially an MMO needs people to actually be enjoyable in the first place. When you don't see anyone else when you're running your quests on an alt or doing your dailies because everyone and their mother is sitting on their flying mount, on a different altitude, you allow players to detatch themselves from the world and in return, it feels empty on both the ground and the air.
You might once in a while see another player every now and then. But it is far less than what it used to when everyone is forced to be on the same ground level.
Now you could contribute that to lower subscriptions, but again, you have the contradictory point that Blizzard has gone out of their way to solve this issue in other ways: namely cross realm phasing if a zone is underpopulated, it groups players from different realms together until a threshold is met to accommodate for lower population realms. But regardless of that, the zones still feel empty, and yet that system is doing it's work and is shifting players to other server, or grouping them together until it is back up to the desired threshold.
They could increase the threshold, but that's mostly a bandaid fix, especially when they see that often this system doesn't have to be used for the no-fly zones at all, unless the realm is really limping, and in a return those zones feel more vibrant to the players, because they regularly see others going about their own business.
You could argue that it's because there is actually content that funnels players to these location even at max level. That is true, but in the same respect, there is max level content in other zones of Pandaria as well. Dread wastes for example. Daily quests there were done rather well and had some form of build up, but it simply got drowned out because there was too much daily quest content, causing a burnout.

If anything the solution to this whole dilution of the player base is rather than dedicating a new island with no flight restriction every time you have a major content patch, you need to settle these news hubs that are related to the new raid instance on the mainland. And removing flight on the mainland Draenor is the second key to that solution, or at least, limit it temporarily.
You still need that vibrancy within the world itself, outside of instances to enrich the mutliplayer aspect of the game. Because what is the point in playing an mmo when you don't encounter others or encounter others barely at all outside of hub towns? You might as well order yourself a single player game which does story telling better. But no, that's not why people play WoW. They play for the social aspect as well.
That social aspect doesn't go away by removing flying, in fact, it rather enhances it. Even if you don't interact directly with other players around you in a zone. You still are aware of their existence and leaves the choice up to you: interact with them or not.
When you have empty zones due to a diluted population, you don't give them much of a choice.
In fact, now it is more of a "oh noes he stole my herb and then flew off" kind of interaction more than anything else. At least on a pvp realm when flying is removed, you can get your revenge on the dick for stealing your herbs immediately after the "crime". Now when they fly off, there isn't much to it anymore in that respect.

[Rankin]

Now you could contribute that to lower subscriptions, but again, you have the contradictory point that Blizzard has gone out of their way to solve this issue in other ways: namely cross realm phasing if a zone is underpopulated, it groups players from different realms together until a threshold is met to accommodate for lower population realms. But regardless of that, the zones still feel empty, and yet that system is doing it's work and is shifting players to other server, or grouping them together until it is back up to the desired threshold.

CRZ was implemented to build up the population in leveling zones. Which they promptly pulled the rugged out from under when they implemented the instant-90 boost. And it doesn't help that dungeons are usually the best way to level, especially if you can tank or heal. So there's little incentive to spend a lot of time out in the world while leveling, assuming you don't just boost to 90 and skip the whole deal.

They could increase the threshold, but that's mostly a bandaid fix, especially when they see that often this system doesn't have to be used for the no-fly zones at all, unless the realm is really limping, and in a return those zones feel more vibrant to the players, because they regularly see others going about their own business.

I get the feeling that most people talking about seeing other players aren't on high pop servers like Stormrage. Because I see people all over Pandaria, and I'm going to bet that Draenor will be extremely crowded for the first month, even if they allowed flying as soon as you hit the level cap. There's going to be a large influx of players on every server when the expansion goes live as people come back to the game to see if there's anything worth sticking around for this time.

[DarkArchon]

Rocketbear has a lot of valid points. Even if your not engaging with other players it's still nice to see people running around everywhere and having competition on quests and such. Makes the world feel more alive and active. I mean really if i wanted to put the effort in i could list a entire page on benefits no flying presents. Every argument or opinion i hear for flying is all convenience based. But for the record am on a high population realm myself and you next to never see anyone else in the world. It feels completely abandoned, every once in a while you see the odd person zip by on a flying mount or a guy doing a quest..That about it. Isn't very fulfilling to see. Before flying mounts toke there full effect in Burning Crusade i would run into people all the time.

[Aboubacar]

I know there is a way to achieve a balance and retain flight.

See I was on the verge of breaking down
Sometimes silence can seem so loud
There are miracles in life I must achieve
But first I know it starts inside of me, oh

If I can see it, then I can be it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it

I believe I can fly

~Superman-Blade's Edge - hero - father - our savior - champion of the winged~

[crooklyn]

I know there is a way to achieve a balance and retain flight.

boomkins dont fly m8

[Celista]

Rocketbear has a lot of valid points. Even if your not engaging with other players it's still nice to see people running around everywhere and having competition on quests and such. Makes the world feel more alive and active. I mean really if i wanted to put the effort in i could list a entire page on benefits no flying presents.

He made no valid points and whoever responded to my question earlier in the thread was ridiculous. "I can't use my ground mounts because other people aren't using theirs." REALLY? Wtf sort of response is that?

Arguments for flight removal that I have read: I don't like flight mounts, but I personally don't bother to use my ground mounts to travel places so I think I should force other players who actually enjoy flight to ONLY ride ground mounts with me! Too bad I don't use my ground mounts outside of Timeless Isle (and the only reason I use my ground mounts there is because I'm forced to)!

Arguments for keeping flight in the game: Convenient; enjoyable; several hundred mounts in game (that players have spent thousands of hours collecting) would not be usable as originally intended if flight was removed; removal of flight artificially inflates world size and prolongs questing, when the same end effect could be achieved in other ways (i.e, actually making the world larger instead of decreasing the size of new quest zones since the end of Wrath); has been in the game for 7 out of 9 years of the game's life at this point; is a feature that distinguishes WoW from most other MMOs.

Oh and btw? That mount that they're offering with the Digital Deluxe and Collector's Edition? Shown in the image as being in MID-FLIGHT from the Blizzard Store. Pretty sure someone could get away with filing a false advertising claim if flight was removed completely in WoD.

I'm sure I could go on at this point, but I'm pretty irritated with the complete lack of logic and incoherent responses in this thread. It's been several hundred pages at this point and NO ONE has said ANYTHING from the pro-flight removal side that even remotely formulated a coherent argument. And I was actually pretty open to the idea of removing flight IF players were going to be compensated in some way, such as SIGNIFICANTLY larger zone sizes (like if Draenor was twice the size of Northrend, which looks like it will not be the case based off what players were saying in the Alpha/Beta thread), or new questing features such as environmental challenges aka GW2/Wildstar style, but now that a significant period of time has passed and we have heard no further details regarding what sort of new features we could look forward to in a world without flight, I am pretty fairly convinced that the only reason flight removal is being considered is due to some bizarre wish from the playerbase to make the game more "hardcore" which hasn't even been articulated well in this thread which is why it is not being listed as an actual reason above. But, btw, if we were to seriously consider that as a reason? Taking longer to do something doesn't make something more "hardcore". Making dungeon and raid content harder, and making mobs hit harder with a greater variety of mechanics makes the game more "hardcore". The only thing this is going to accomplish is more players opting to afk on their flight points instead of actually taking the time to travel there themselves (already somewhat of a rarity in the game).

I guarantee you that complaints about no flight will be clogging the forums shortly after WoD release. Guaranteed.

I think I'm done here.

[DarkArchon]

I think I'm done here.

Bye

Your post was so childish and horrendous i can't bring myself to reply.

[Celista]

Bye

Your post was so childish and horrendous i can't bring myself to reply.

Yes, I'd assume you say something like that since you haven't articulated any sort of solid argument for your stance on flight in the first place.

I was actually going to break down Rocketbear's post point by point which from the outset was flawed/biased due to his claim that no flight would bring back the "wonder" of BC (yes, the expansion that introduced flight), and that BC environments had a larger set of differing environments, which is very clearly not true if you bother to actually compare the zones from each expansion. If anything the most "different" environments in WoW were the underwater zone from Cataclysm and Kun-Lai Summit in MoP, the latter being notable due to the nearly vertical terrain in the mountain peak areas. But I can tell that you and some others aren't actually interested in serious thought or reasoned argument on this subject so perhaps I'll expand upon those points at a later date, if someone introduces a modicum of a sensible argument here.