Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Serenais]

I clarified it a bit more.
It's not the "boring" parts that you should love, however it makes the rewarding parts a lot more well rewarding! No one might say "this is so dull and boring. I LOVE IT! I'm gonna do it more", but you still got thousands of players doing the same raid over and over and over again to get their reward, and they are happy to do it. Now if they were all just handed all their gear and didn't have to work for it, what kind of game would that be? Even with a totally new encounter you have the same concept. If the boss would just keel over and die after one hit and no danger of dying(boring part), defeating him(fun part) would lose it's meaning.

There is a sweet balance, at some point doing the same boring and dull thing over and over again is too much, but not having it there at all is also very bad.

The thing is, a well designed game is fun throughout all of its playtime; if the game fails at being fun most to all of the time, and is fun only when the player succeeds, we get to a game that is unnecessarily punishing. To give an example, I personally have fun raiding, wipes nonwithstanding. It can be ruined, however, even if the raid effectivelly succeeds at downing the bosses, if certain conditions are breached (ie. I can't play the role I like, I am forced to go against my better judgement without explanation, the atmosphere among players is generally hostile, etc.). If the game separates fun parts with parts that are PER DESIGN not fun, the game designer should not be surprised that players have a tendency to skip those parts.

[WtfamIreading]

You keep pushing the shitty mounted combat crap, it doesn't work. How the hell would a BM hunter work without a pet? Or what about gap closers like heroic leap? You can't drop AOE in the air, which messes up things like binding shot.

Yeah wth Blizz. Siriusly blissart if u remobe my key ability for my role by not adding flying bears in this aerial combat i will siriusly quit this game. becus my pet mean the world to me, and if i dont get to fly with him, srsly i quit. and 15% of ur huntar plyerbase wil 2 . but this is ok tho because the rest of the wruld get to keep their precious bird ability

[-Superman-]

It's not a question of watching things. There is no effective marking system for the air so they would née to rely on spear with clunky hit boxes you can't see. That's not helpful at all. There is no way to facilitate such a thing in the game unless we have laser beams stretching to infinity. The cannons in Outland would blast you if you stopped moving, and those in northerend were unaboidable. Systems where you have to conceptually pay attention simply won't work for aerial play.

You keep pushing the shitty mounted combat crap, it doesn't work. How the hell would a BM hunter work without a pet? Or what about gap closers like heroic leap? You can't drop AOE in the air, which messes up things like binding shot.

In storm peaks, there are surface to air rockets that knock you off your mount as you try to fly over a mine field.

In Krasarang wilds, at Domination point, there are turrets that fire on you if you hover too close to their garrison.

At HalfHill, before their nerf, Giant Plainshawks would circle the farm and if you were mounted, you were attacked.

I will ask you the same thing I have asked other.

Since NONE of my suggestion appeal to your sense of balance, as a Blizz employee who was tasked with balancing flight, not removing it, how would YOU balance it to put it on par with ground mounts WITHOUT nerfing it into the ground and making it completely unusable?

Please, take your time and offer a VIABLE solution to balancing flight without removing it. At least a dozen other Anti-fliers in this very thread have managed reasonable solutions. I would challenge you to do the same.

As for aerial combat, give the mounts weapons instead. Fire breathing drakes, guns on flying machines, etc.

[Mjau]

The thing is, a well designed game is fun throughout all of its playtime; if the game fails at being fun most to all of the time, and is fun only when the player succeeds, we get to a game that is unnecessarily punishing. To give an example, I personally have fun raiding, wipes nonwithstanding. It can be ruined, however, even if the raid effectivelly succeeds at downing the bosses, if certain conditions are breached (ie. I can't play the role I like, I am forced to go against my better judgement without explanation, the atmosphere among players is generally hostile, etc.). If the game separates fun parts with parts that are PER DESIGN not fun, the game designer should not be surprised that players have a tendency to skip those parts.

Yeah I agree that you shouldn't feel bored playing a game, which is exactly why I stopped playing WoW back in cata. It was no longer fun for me, all the things I used to find fun in WoW had become boring or didn't exist anymore. Traveling in the world was boring as flying high up was the fastest and most effective way. Even if I went by ground or flew low there were no players or mobs to distract me. Traveling was pretty much go from A to B in a straight line. Something I loved in WoW in the beginning was that going from A to B was never a straight line. A number of things could happen to me on my way. I could get ganked, I could meet someone needing help, I could stumble upon a rarespawn, I could get a trail of mobs after me, maybe even dying which would be annoying. But it made it more fun and exciting and I would actually have to play the game.

[Kazgrel]

I clarified it a bit more.
It's not the "boring" parts that you should love, however it makes the rewarding parts a lot more well rewarding! No one might say "this is so dull and boring. I LOVE IT! I'm gonna do it more", but you still got thousands of players doing the same raid over and over and over again to get their reward, and they are happy to do it. Now if they were all just handed all their gear and didn't have to work for it, what kind of game would that be? Even with a totally new encounter you have the same concept. If the boss would just keel over and die after one hit and no danger of dying(boring part), defeating him(fun part) would lose it's meaning.

There is a sweet balance, at some point doing the same boring and dull thing over and over again is too much, but not having it there at all is also very bad.

You should apply to be on the WoD team, if you aren't already. You sound like you could be BFF with Afrisiabi.

[Granyala]

Since NONE of my suggestion appeal to your sense of balance, as a Blizz employee who was tasked with balancing flight, not removing it, how would YOU balance it to put it on par with ground mounts WITHOUT nerfing it into the ground and making it completely unusable?

You're not?
Flying is only a means of transportation.
Once we've explored the continent, we should be able to fly w/o any sort of restrictions, super small zones like 5.2 and 5.4 Island maybe an exception.

I'm playing on a PvE Realm.
Forcing me on the ground adds nothing to my gameplay, except more time consumed by traveling from A to B.

On PvP Realms: Give players the ability to dismount and let them gank their brains out. I don't care in the slightest.

[quras]

You can't support using a ground mount or taking fast flight paths because it might take another 1-2min in some situations? Yeah you'll be ok.

No, I can't support that type of game design. It shows a massive lack of forward or interesting thinking in design and development. Removing a 7+ year old feature cause blizzard can't be bothered anymore to create content with max level flying is a problem at the core of WOW. I got NP with it not being there for leveling. At max level, flying should be there. Blizzard has chosen to remove that option for a unspecified amount of time. I will not support them for an unspecified amount of time.

Think your over exaggerating a little, lets dip back to reality and a sane train of thought. And i wouldn't count on Blizzard listening to fanatical posts like this with no constructive feedback to boot.

At this point, seeing all the things blizzard is removing and the little amount of interesting content being created for an expansion that costs more than past expansions that brought more new options and game play to the game, I don't count on blizzard doing anything right these days much less read this thread where great ideas for keeping flight in game are. blizzard would rather remove great features then work with a feature that sets WOW apart from most other MMOs. That too is unacceptable.

Flying breaks the game moving forward on future WoW endeavors. Why try to throw 5 band-aids on it when the best solution is it's removal.

Flying doesn't break the game moving forward. Blizzard moving backwards in design, removing features that can be worked with and have proven in the past to be a part of the WOW formula that brought in more gamers than ever is what is blizzards problem. Along with a touch of laziness (cause lets be honest - anytime a developer says, "Hey lets just remove feature "A" so we can build smaller areas" is indeed a touch of lazy.)

Flying isn't a need, it's a want..

False...
After 7 years, spending real cash on it outside of my sub, getting the enjoyment of flying at MAX level as I do, experiencing WOW as I have with no flying since vanilla, I can assure you. Flying is an integral part of my WOW experience at max level and has moved from a want to a need if I plan on enjoying WOW content at max level.

And we've had them for awhile now and the thought of losing it gives you withdrawals...Pretty sure you'll live.

I will but my WOW sub wont. After 10 years of on and off play, working through cataclysm and how bad that was, to working through MoP and the massive disappoint that was, blizzard has finally found a way to make sure I do not support their continued erosion of a good game through piss poor design and development.

A lot of changes being made in WoD is most defiantly a step forwards in design. A lot of going back to the foundations what made this game a success to begin with.

Incorrect. WOW does not need blizzard developing the game through nostalgia and trying to relive moments of past glories that can never be recaptured. It is impossible at this point in the game life. Not only will gamers not go back to the crap things we had to deal with in vanilla but I'm shocked anyone who actually played in that time would even remotely consider it.

There is a reason why flying is the single most requested feature this game has ever had (besides dual spec), it's cause the game needed it. It' needs to be designed around flying, content that supports flying and since WOW is one of the very few that even has flying, blizzard needs to showcase that feature, not limit it at max level much less remove it.

[Serenais]

Yeah I agree that you shouldn't feel bored playing a game, which is exactly why I stopped playing WoW back in cata. It was no longer fun for me, all the things I used to find fun in WoW had become boring or didn't exist anymore. Traveling in the world was boring as flying high up was the fastest and most effective way. Even if I went by ground or flew low there were no players or mobs to distract me. Traveling was pretty much go from A to B in a straight line. Something I loved in WoW in the beginning was that going from A to B was never a straight line. A number of things could happen to me on my way. I could get ganked, I could meet someone needing help, I could stumble upon a rarespawn, I could get a trail of mobs after me, maybe even dying which would be annoying. But it made it more fun and exciting and I would actually have to play the game.

To be honest, Cataclysm had a problem of keeping players out in the world in general - mostly everything was done via "queue in Stormwind/Orgrimmar". The zone design was mostly unwelcoming (though, I do have to say, I found Vashj'ir VERY awesome, especially the sunken city). The top level zone, Twilight Highlands, was quite a spectacular fail, because most of it felt as in the "meh" area, and Uldum was basically empty for the most part (and that comes from someone who actually did enjoy the Harrison Jones questline a great deal). Not seeing anyone was, in my opinion, as a result of that. MoP (again, in my opinion) did quite a bit better job at that. Flying didn't seem to be a factor in either way in both cases.

[-Superman-]

You're not?
Flying is only a means of transportation.
Once we've explored the continent, we should be able to fly w/o any sort of restrictions, super small zones like 5.2 and 5.4 Island maybe an exception.

I'm playing on a PvE Realm.
Forcing me on the ground adds nothing to my gameplay, except more time consumed by traveling from A to B.

On PvP Realms: Give players the ability to dismount and let them gank their brains out. I don't care in the slightest.

Trust me, I really don't care about balance. I am a pro-flier who understands that flight is coming back in 6.1. It took me some time to realize this thread is not QQ about flight being removed. It is QQ about anti-fliers WANTING it removed. I am simply trying to prove to them that a feature can be balanced without being removed. I'm sure they have their concerns about flight, and I wish I could care, but aside from making polite conversation and discussing fixing the car versus crushing the car and getting a bike, I am still very much in favor of flight staying exactly the way it is. I've also promised to leave the game in 6.1 if flight is not instated in the new content.

[Joey Ray III]

I clarified it a bit more.
It's not the "boring" parts that you should love, however it makes the rewarding parts a lot more well rewarding! No one might say "this is so dull and boring. I LOVE IT! I'm gonna do it more", but you still got thousands of players doing the same raid over and over and over again to get their reward, and they are happy to do it. Now if they were all just handed all their gear and didn't have to work for it, what kind of game would that be? Even with a totally new encounter you have the same concept. If the boss would just keel over and die after one hit and no danger of dying(boring part), defeating him(fun part) would lose it's meaning.

There is a sweet balance, at some point doing the same boring and dull thing over and over again is too much, but not having it there at all is also very bad.

i disagree. no one wants boring parts in a game and they are not necessary.

however, a little bit of frustration is needed to make it rewarding in the end. not so frustrating to make you wanna quit, but enough to make you wanna try harder.

[-Superman-]

I flew to Timeless Isle yesterday (what a ghosttown by the way) and on my way there I saw a tiny island with an empty hut. Good luck doing that by swimming for example and it is near the fatigue boundary zone. Even though Timeless Isle is surrounded by a fatigue zone I was still able to reach TI quickly before being dismounted. I tried doing the same trip using the flight paths that Blizz designed and it was simply painful to even watch. There was no logical reasons for the flight paths other than to simulate a roller coaster ride lmao.

I think most FPs need to be a lift off, fly straight, and land. If you want us to see more than that, let us explore on our own. I don't have 20 minutes to waste just trying to fly on a Flight Path from Shadowmoon Valley to Netherstorm, when I can mount up, fly due north, and get to The Arcatraz in 6 minutes.

- - - Updated - - -

i disagree. no one wants boring parts in a game and they are not necessary.

however, a little bit of frustration is needed to make it rewarding in the end. not so frustrating to make you wanna quit, but enough to make you wanna try harder.

It should not be deliberately frustrating either. It should be technical, mechanical, and offer a challenge. But making something frustrating is just as bad as making something boring.

[Granyala]

Trust me, I really don't care about balance. I am a pro-flier who understands that flight is coming back in 6.1. It took me some time to realize this thread is not QQ about flight being removed. It is QQ about anti-fliers WANTING it removed. I am simply trying to prove to them that a feature can be balanced without being removed. I'm sure they have their concerns about flight, and I wish I could care, but aside from making polite conversation and discussing fixing the car versus crushing the car and getting a bike, I am still very much in favor of flight staying exactly the way it is. I've also promised to leave the game in 6.1 if flight is not instated in the new content.

Problem is: 99% of the anti flyers come from PvP realms, and they do have a valid point. Flying gives their targets an easy way of escape, since it's virtually impossible to track a flying person, because after seconds it's so far away that it won't be displayed anymore.

Back in the day they could chase you on your ground mount for as long as it took until some mob dazed you and knocked you off again, at which point you were essentially free honor.

1% are the ones that constantly talk about immersion, as if flying mounts somehow remove that aspect. oO

however, a little bit of frustration is needed to make it rewarding in the end.

I concur.
However that frustration should come from not being able to defeat something that challenges your personal skill.
It should NEVER come from a mere timesink.
Timesinks & Gating are a lazy DEVs way to make content last longer, though they are necessary in MMOs to some extent.

I think most FPs need to be a lift off, fly straight, and land.

They need to be decoupled and direct.
want to fly from Jade to Klaxxi-Vess? FLY DIRECTLY.
Want to fly from Jade to Timeless FLY DIRECTLY.

Currently it forces you to fly through half a zone, then makes a 180 to fly to your target. Dumb... but I think they'll fix that in WoD.

[Kazgrel]

i disagree. no one wants boring parts in a game and they are not necessary.

however, a little bit of frustration is needed to make it rewarding in the end. not so frustrating to make you wanna quit, but enough to make you wanna try harder.

Your idea of frustration sounds like a pesky boss fight (in any game), and the feeling of accomplishment can be fun in and of itself. For the big bad boss to fall over from a fart in the wind...I would call that anticlimactic and not fun. Boring, if you will. But it's all subjective I suppose.

[Mjau]

To be honest, Cataclysm had a problem of keeping players out in the world in general - mostly everything was done via "queue in Stormwind/Orgrimmar". The zone design was mostly unwelcoming (though, I do have to say, I found Vashj'ir VERY awesome, especially the sunken city). The top level zone, Twilight Highlands, was quite a spectacular fail, because most of it felt as in the "meh" area, and Uldum was basically empty for the most part (and that comes from someone who actually did enjoy the Harrison Jones questline a great deal). Not seeing anyone was, in my opinion, as a result of that. MoP (again, in my opinion) did quite a bit better job at that. Flying didn't seem to be a factor in either way in both cases.

Yeah I don't think flying is the root of all evil. I thought it was pretty fun when it was introduced and was very excited about it. However now I feel like it has made the world smaller and more dead in many ways. I'm concidering coming back for WoD to see what the game is like now, however flying or no flying is not the dealbreaker for me, but wether I have time to play or not If they decide to keep no flying though it is a positive thing for sure for me and maybe a little sign that they want to change the direction of the game to somewhat more similar to the way it used to be. It's Blizzard's game in the end and they have to decide which direction they want to take it in.

[Granyala]

For the big bad boss to fall over from a fart in the wind...I would call that anticlimactic and not fun.

Indeed.
A "what, that's all you can do?!" feeling should never be the result of a freshly defeated Boss.

However now I feel like it has made the world smaller and more dead in many ways.

One can't really argue with smaller. It's because of the insanely (fun^^) fast flying speed.

Dead however is more due to the fact that all rewarding activities are basically instanced and subsequently REMOVE players that participate from the world itself.

[Serenais]

Problem is: 99% of the anti flyers come from PvP realms, and they do have a valid point. Flying gives their targets an easy way of escape, since it's virtually impossible to track a flying person, because after seconds it's so far away that it won't be displayed anymore.

Back in the day they could chase you on your ground mount for as long as it took until some mob dazed you and knocked you off again, at which point you were essentially free honor.

To be honest, if the PvPer's target is capable to drop combat and mount after being attacked, the PvPer does not deserve the kill. If we are talking trying to attack a target that spotted the attacker and the attacker can't close enough within the time to force combat on the target (if I recall correctly, most, if not all, class-spec combos do have a ranged ability that will initiate combat and thus prevent succesful mounting), it is a similar situation; if we are talking about PvPers complaining that a target they killed several times by now has escaped because they do not like being ganked, I apologise, but if a player considers making someone else's gameplay not fun an enjoyable way to spend time, they should stop and try a bit of self-reflecting (apologise, but I REALLY dispise gankers). Not to mention that if they are unable to spot the ganked (and corpse camped) target in the time it gets them to mount, again, they do not deserve the kill. PvP is not just about killing other players, it is also about not being killed by other players.

[Mjau]

i disagree. no one wants boring parts in a game and they are not necessary.

however, a little bit of frustration is needed to make it rewarding in the end. not so frustrating to make you wanna quit, but enough to make you wanna try harder.

Maybe boring isn't the right word, which is why I've been putting it in ""s Wether you wanna call it boring or frustrating or whatever, my point is that they need a contrast to fun and convenience, or it loses it's meaning. The problem seems to be that people can't agree on where that balance should be, but in the end it's Blizzard's job and all we can do is voice our opinions and see wether they agree or not!

[Granyala]

To be honest, if the PvPer's target is capable to drop combat and mount after being attacked, the PvPer does not deserve the kill.

I don't PvP since the TBC days, but back in the day, I could fear someone and during that time I could mount up, because combat dropped extremely quickly.
Did that change?

but if a player considers making someone else's gameplay not fun an enjoyable way to spend time, they should stop and try a bit of self-reflecting (apologise, but I REALLY dispise gankers).

Fat chance. These individuals don't have the mental capacity to do so. They just get a boner because they imagine their victim raging in frustration and helplessness. There is only one solution to this asshole behavior:

Transfer to a PvE realm. Which is what I did. BEST CHOICE OF MY ENTIRE FRIGGIN WOW CARRER!

PS: As you can see: I hate ganker kiddies too!

The problem seems to be that people can't agree on where that balance should be

And they never will.
That is one of the very difficult judgment calls a game DEV has to make.

[Serenais]

Yeah I don't think flying is the root of all evil. I thought it was pretty fun when it was introduced and was very excited about it. However now I feel like it has made the world smaller and more dead in many ways. I'm concidering coming back for WoD to see what the game is like now, however flying or no flying is not the dealbreaker for me, but wether I have time to play or not If they decide to keep no flying though it is a positive thing for sure for me and maybe a little sign that they want to change the direction of the game to somewhat more similar to the way it used to be. It's Blizzard's game in the end and they have to decide which direction they want to take it in.

That's the one thing about the current status of flying. Technically speaking, with a few select exceptions (ie. entrance to the Mogu'shan Vaults raid), are reachable without a flying mount, therefore, flying is not forced on the player. It makes gameplay faster, but, again. We arrive at the problem that without it, players would be forced to go through content already done ad nauseam again and again (thus enforcing stereotype), not to mention that some activities (ie. archaeology) is simply too much of a hassle to do without being able to fly between spots where the activities are performed.
As to why I mention stereotype, it is one of the biggest player banes in WoW; it is the reason why subscription numbers drop during long periods of no new content, and why raid guilds that have no more bosses to down (be it because they finished the raid or because they got to a place they simply can't get past) end up dying.

[quras]

Maybe boring isn't the right word, which is why I've been putting it in ""s Wether you wanna call it boring or frustrating or whatever, my point is that they need a contrast to fun and convenience, or it loses it's meaning. The problem seems to be that people can't agree on where that balance should be, but in the end it's Blizzard's job and all we can do is voice our opinions and see wether they agree or not!

But thats just it. Getting from "A" to "B" at max level doesn't need to be a challenge. It's doesn't need to be boring or frustrating or limited.

The challenge needs to come when you get to "B" and some creative encounter design is needed at that point. Getting there doesn't have or even need to be a headache to any extent especially at max level.