Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[gamingmuscle]

But... but... Cata and MoP was made for flying and they've lost ~5million subs in this period. Mayhap, a change is direction is needed?

And flying continuing to be in the game likely little to no impact on those sub losses.

Until you have the new customer # you cannot extrapolate anything useful from sub numbers. If you have large spikes...you could maybe attribute that to large scale changes in direction/philosophy....but it still would be marred by a significant amount of uncertainty.

[Ordinator]

Well of course it would still be WOW. It would still be wow if we all just walked everywhere and removed ground mounts as well.

Either way, what it would be is be less of an interesting game. You don't remove a feature that makes your game stand out from almost every other MMO out there. You showcase it. Enhance it, build content around it and show everyone that wow has flying and many others do not or are trying to add it.

You don't remove a sales pitch that strong, in times when wow is losing 4.5- 5.5 million subs and more as each day passes with no new live content.

Flying does not make wow as an MMO stand out. Nobody bought WoW because somebody told them there things with wings that take them up. Id imagine many people bought WoW because so many people play it. Thus enforcing the need to push for a more socially focused game.

This is the part where you say, "but flying doesn't make the game anti social".

Can you tell me how flying makes the game MORE social?

[WtfamIreading]

And flying continuing to be in the game likely little to no impact on those sub losses.

Until you have the new customer # you cannot extrapolate anything useful from sub numbers. If you have large spikes...you could maybe attribute that to large scale changes in direction/philosophy....but it still would be marred by a significant amount of uncertainty.

I agree with you. Large gain or drops in subs will be caused by major change in direction and philosophy. That is the one reason we can base the fact that WoW has dropped 5 million subs on for sure. Everything else is speculation. But Blizzard did make huge changes with Cata in terms of how they want the game to be. And as a result, unfortunately it reacted negatively.

Now, we are seeing massive changes again. How will this turn out? No one knows. Time will tell. Personally, I am just so happy I feel exited for the game again, after 4 years of constant disappointments.

[rebecca191]

But... but... Cata and MoP was made for flying and they've lost ~5million subs in this period. Mayhap, a change is direction is needed?

So were BC and WotLK and WotLK saw the game's highest subscription numbers ever. It's not flying that drove players away.

[gamingmuscle]

My theory is that stuff like flying in Stormwind/Orgrimmar, LFR among a ton of other implementations we've seen the last 4 years has nurtured the society we have today. I think that a ton of simplifications of playing the game removes the need of others to progress your character, which gets boring much quicker than an including, community-based game. I don't know, maybe all the changes we see from Blizzard today is because they share the same views? I don't know. But they acknowledge that something is wrong, and they try to fix it with whatever they think is what's best for the game. To be honest, I agree with much if not all the changes that is coming.

Hate to break it to you, the toxicity existed in vanilla. All any changes blizzard made is increased your exposure to more and more people. Which creates more and more opportunity. So these bad behaviors get more exposure, and tend to spawn additional bad behavior.

They haven't acknowledge anything. They laid out a weak story to try and justify a decision they haven't explained in depth.

Blizzard needs to constantly change the game to help keep it fresh and to fight off churn. Adding features when possible, and maybe even removing them when necessary. But they have so far failed to show that removing flying is necessary. You don't care because it happens to fit into your personal preferences, while I am not super attached to flight itself like it's removal won't make me quit, I do not see any solid reasons for the change.

[Joey Ray III]

and I agree on the PVP part but I'm not so blind that you can alway force PVP even on a PVP server.

You can try sure but if players don't want to participate. They will not. Doesn't matter how forced you make it.

you may not be blind but i'm invisible ;p

Anyone who uses the argument "swoop in and bypass content" need to stop and realize that you can do that regardless of flight.

but you still gotta be careful and you can still get jumped on by other players. hardly the same. flying allows you to skip everything and go straight to your objective.

[gamingmuscle]

I agree with you. Large gain or drops in subs will be caused by major change in direction and philosophy. That is the one reason we can base the fact that WoW has dropped 5 million subs on for sure. Everything else is speculation. But Blizzard did make huge changes with Cata in terms of how they want the game to be. And as a result, unfortunately it reacted negatively.

Now, we are seeing massive changes again. How will this turn out? No one knows. Time will tell. Personally, I am just so happy I feel exited for the game again, after 4 years of constant disappointments.

Most of that 5 million is more than likely normal churn vs dwindling new customers. There was a large drop of like a million in the quarter after cata dropped. (may have been 2 quarters, can't remember and not interest enough to loom it up) That large of drop probably had something to do with changes made in Cata. But the continuous 200kish loss is likely normal churn without a strong influx of new customers to offset it.

- - - Updated - - -

Flying does not make wow as an MMO stand out. Nobody bought WoW because somebody told them there things with wings that take them up. Id imagine many people bought WoW because so many people play it. Thus enforcing the need to push for a more socially focused game.

This is the part where you say, "but flying doesn't make the game anti social".

Can you tell me how flying makes the game MORE social?

Why does it need to add to the social experience? Every feature doesn't need to to be socially focused.

[rebecca191]

I was always more likely to help a friend or guildie when I could fly to them. Actually, I helped other people the *most* when HGWT was in the game, but of course Blizzard removed that entirely rather than just disabling it in areas where it would be problematic.

[Destruktion]

Except in the formula of wow success, cataclysm and MoP sucked whenit came to content and story. Player need that too along with staple features that make the game interesting especially at max level. Flying would be one of those features.

TBC and WoTLK had great content and story and flying at max level. Guess what - They brought wow to 12 million subs.

I will be the first to say that I loved the story in TBC. I liked it because the plot was less like what you'd find in a film (which is what we got with every expansion afterwards) and more like what you'd find in an actual world. But I've long since been convinced that I'm in the minority with that opinion. WotLK had a great story, I don't think anyone will argue that, but TBC is not fondly remembered for its story.

[quras]

Well, yea of course it is, I was being sarcastic on the first bit. But claiming it will be less interesting to play without it, when you haven't even played the game-extension is kind of ignorant and based on stubborn attitude.

Then I would suggest you not be sarcastic. It doesn't translate well online and it brings nothing to the debate.

However, 10+ years of playing wow tells me what is interesting content or not.

I've seen and played content with no flying
I've seen and played content with flying.
I've seen and played content based on no flying like TI and IoT.

It's a situation I don't care to repeat especially for an entire patch cycle. It just wasn't that good. There is no amount of TI style content that would ever be as interesting as flying at max level. I'm not arguing for it's removal but screw having that kind of garbage filler content everywhere for a patch cycle just so in 6.1 blizzard can give you flying back but remove flying in whatever newly released area they add. Screw that back and forth flying - no flying.

I don't need to play the expansion to see the direction blizzard is moving in. My decision was not based on some random idea or ignorant thought. It's based on 10+ years of playing wow, seeing what blizzard does and how they do content.

What they are doing in WoD with flying (and not just flying I might add) does not warrant my cash or loyalty at this time.

Flying does not make wow as an MMO stand out. Nobody bought WoW because somebody told them there things with wings that take them up. Id imagine many people bought WoW because so many people play it. Thus enforcing the need to push for a more socially focused game.

This is the part where you say, "but flying doesn't make the game anti social".

Can you tell me how flying makes the game MORE social?

Since flying was a massive sales pitch and on the box. It helped wow stand out above every other MMo. Go and take a look back at the blizzcon when it was announced. Flying was wanted. Probably the most requested feature ever besides dual spec.

You'd have to be delusional to not believe that.

Many gamers bought wow cause fo teh things it offered. TBC brought flying as one of those things. Lets not make flying seem less than the steller feature we got. Hell, thousands of gamers have spent additional cash well and above their monthly sub just for new and interesting flying mounts. What a way for blizzard to say, "FU random guy/gal that paid us more cash then you needed to!"

I don't care one way if it's social or not. when I want to be social I run with people in a dungeon or raid. We might hit a world boss but I never needed anyone in TI.

All that was, was random people hitting the same mob with no need to be social. Forced grouping in that will still amount to nothing more then a instance group being made, then quickly dropped once the boss is dead.

Flying is not something you base a social activity on.

Want to base something on social interactivity. How many times did I do anything with anyone in TI and really make an effort to speak or contact anyone. ZERO. There was not need and flying had nothing to do with that.

If blizzard wants to create a forced area of grouping with TI content so be it. If it's one zone I can skip great. If it's everywhere. I'll pass on the entire game.

[cabyio]

That's how Superman-BladesEdge works. He is constantly dramatic and over the top and its all for show. Just look at his avatar and signature. Blizzard was his girl friend and now he's showing off his new one to everyone and hopes Blizzard gets jealous.

True. But we should be happy. Someone that constantly advocated for more and more casual crap content has permanently left the game. That's a win for us! I might even have a celebratory drink.

[Ordinator]

Why does it need to add to the social experience? Every feature doesn't need to to be socially focused.

Because that's what WoW should be known for. Not flying. WoW was originally a great social experience. And somewhere along the line some of you believe that flying is why so many people love WoW. It's sad.

[Sunseeker]

True. But we should be happy. Someone that constantly advocated for more and more casual crap content has permanently left the game. That's a win for us! I might even have a celebratory drink.

There's an old saying: "The squeeky wheel gets the grease." Companies are far more likely to listen to players who quit, or threaten to quit than players who are happy with the status-quo. See: New Coke.

[-Superman-]

True. But we should be happy. Someone that constantly advocated for more and more casual crap content has permanently left the game. That's a win for us! I might even have a celebratory drink.

Glad I could make your day. I hope you and the others get exactly what you have coming to you. Have a nice day.

- - - Updated - - -

There's an old saying: "The squeeky wheel gets the grease." Companies are far more likely to listen to players who quit, or threaten to quit than players who are happy with the status-quo. See: New Coke.

You're wasting your breath on a few of these people mate, but thanks anyway for trying

[Mormolyce]

There's an old saying: "The squeeky wheel gets the grease." Companies are far more likely to listen to players who quit, or threaten to quit than players who are happy with the status-quo. See: New Coke.

Mmm, depends. I doubt people threatening to quit on forums makes Blizzard do anything. They have internal metrics they track on customer satisfaction, and at the end of the day they make the game the way they think is best anyway. They've never shied from making decisions they think are in the game's best interests no matter how much QQ they generate (eg, this 370 page thread and god knows how many "I'm quitting" posts).

Of course customer dissatisfaction is a factor. To my recollection the only time they've really had to respond to fan backlash and change course as a result was when they announced the monumentally unpopular idea of showing your Real ID on Bnet forums for everyone to see. And a year or so later they came up with Battletags which have been quietly supplanting Real ID ever since.

[gamingmuscle]

Because that's what WoW should be known for. Not flying. WoW was originally a great social experience. And somewhere along the line some of you believe that flying is why so many people love WoW. It's sad.

No you are being dishonest and twisting words into something else. WoW should be known for being fun. Social fun can be a part of that, a long with solo fun. Not everything needs to force socialization. That is idiotic. Flying is fun for some. Detrimental to others. Still nothing indicating removal is the best/correct way to go.

[Ordinator]

No you are being dishonest and twisting words into something else. WoW should be known for being fun. Social fun can be a part of that, a long with solo fun. Not everything needs to force socialization. That is idiotic. Flying is fun for some. Detrimental to others. Still nothing indicating removal is the best/correct way to go.

Dishonest and twisting words? Do you live off of buzzwords or something. What I posted is pretty dead on. If you think there is nothing indicating it's removal maybe you should read over the blue post again.

[Xada]

Flying is not the reason WoW's social atmosphere has changed. The largest factor was LFD and LFR, while incredibly convenient to not have to spend time in trade chat looking for X number of players to fill your group, players had little reason to interact with players on their server. There was no accountability, meaning if you did something good or bad, the other players in the group would not remember you for it and likely, won't see you ever again. There is no reason to interact with players for group content because blizzard created a system that took the interaction out.

I'm not saying flying couldn't have some part in changing the social aspect of the game, but in all honesty, it's probably insignificant and isn't worth bringing up. This does not excuse flying for the other changes it does significantly impact.

[Aehl]

LFG is and was a necessity.

[gamingmuscle]

Dishonest and twisting words? Do you live off of buzzwords or something. What I posted is pretty dead on. If you think there is nothing indicating it's removal maybe you should read over the blue post again.

Sigh. The explanation from the blue indicated problem a with flight. Not what the solution to the problem is or should be. But you don't care, because of your personal bias against flying. Their narrative is good enough to you, you get what you want. To hell with if it makes logical sense. It's not for someone who has doubts about the decision, they don't explain their reasoning. Why is removal right as opposed to fixing, or even ignoring.

And yes you are being dishonest if you think anyone here has said that Flying is the reason people love WoW (maybe that superman guy has, he's hard to follow sometimes)