Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Deleted]

I play WoW for fun, not as a chore. Making the game a chore will result in subscription loss.

Except WoW is basically one giant fucking chore. Dailies, weekly raid lockouts, capping point caps. Etc. It is all a chore, in the end. Every MMO is. Try playing it without the social interaction. See how much fun you'll have.
It is inferior to every single aspect of a single player game, but the social aspect brings it all together.

I find it horribly amusing people actually take my posts seriously, since I've given up this topic about 100 pages ago. I've tried the middle ground, nope. I have tried laying out reasons as to why flying is bad, and quite detailed from a game design perspective, in response people still come at me with the same argument I had already dismantled.

Discussion dies when either party just refuses to see the points of the other. And that's exactly what's happening here. Those who are whining about the removal of flying have put forward some valuable points, like it adds to RP value, it is convenient (which I view as a bad thing), etc. Yet when you bring any serious counter arguments to the table, they laugh them off, or flat out ignores them and continue preaching their own fallible shit.
This topic should have died 100 pages ago. The fact it has run this long is evidence that both sides are stubborn dicks, and there is a whole lot of "lalalalalalala, I CANNOT HEAR YOU" going on in here.

It's like trying to have a serious discussion with someone who swears that a pink invisible rainbow unicorn has created this world by spraying his spunk into the soil of the universe.

[mbrmbr]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/04/26/ba...ds-of-draenor/

If you have nothing constructive to add, the door is that way ----------->

I'll add something constructive then;

No-flying can potentially give some gameplay improvements. It also has some negative sideeffects, but for the positive things to work, everyone has to lose the ability to fly. It will not break your game. You should stop arguing about it now! and just try it out.

[Dragoncurry]

I'll add something constructive then;

No-flying can potentially give some gameplay improvements. It also has some negative sideeffects, but for the positive things to work, everyone has to lose the ability to fly. It will not break your game. You should stop arguing about it now! and just try it out.

He can't because he's so passionate /sarcasm. He provides zero support for his claims, and ignores everyone else while insulting them by calling them kids or elites, etc in order to prove his points. He also believes he has a claim on Blizzard's design direction because he spent 5K on the game. No real surprise here.

[urasim]

He provides zero support for his claims

The only people I see support their claims are the people who want flight to stay...

An example of someone who doesn't provide support is the no-flying people like mbrnbr and yourself. He claims that it can potentially improve game play, but doesn't provide anything to back that up. It's pure speculation.

On the other hand you get someone that proves that flightless, current content doesn't improve anything. Look at Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle. Do you see sub numbers increasing? No. More than 70% of MoP open world life is flightless content. Half of MoP's open world, flightless content(Timeless Isle) is a good representation of what we will get in WoD(based on what Blizzard has told us). Communication and social interactions have not increased because those zones are flightless. WPvP is only prevalent on the Timeless Isle because of the censor, otherwise WPvP would be dead. There is no plans, as of yet, to include an item like that in the expansion.

[mbrmbr]

The only person who needs to stop is the person who already deleted all his accounts and is still passionate about something he gave up on and is now effectively whining while using his past contributions as an excuse to do so.

I only ever had 1 account, and I still have it, and I'm going to continue playing on it

[Ordinator]

He can't because he's so passionate /sarcasm. He provides zero support for his claims, and ignores everyone else while insulting them by calling them kids or elites, etc in order to prove his points. He also believes he has a claim on Blizzard's design direction because he spent 5K on the game. No real surprise here.

It's also worth noting he just finished his something like 5th ban just for raging. It's so far from being "passionate" as he says at this point.

On topic: I think no flying is the best idea ever.

[Dragoncurry]

I only ever had 1 account, and I still have it, and I'm going to continue playing on it

I was talking about Superman, not you.

[mbrmbr]

I was talking about Superman, not you.

I thought about this after posting, but didn't edit in time

I also make too many smilies, but can't help it

[Dragoncurry]

The only people I see support their claims are the people who want flight to stay...

An example of someone who doesn't provide support is the no-flying people like mbrnbr and yourself. He claims that it can potentially improve game play, but doesn't provide anything to back that up. It's pure speculation.

On the other hand you get someone that proves that flightless, current content doesn't improve anything. Look at Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle. Do you see sub numbers increasing? No. More than 70% of MoP open world life is flightless content. Half of MoP's open world, flightless content(Timeless Isle) is a good representation of what we will get in WoD(based on what Blizzard has told us). Communication and social interactions have not increased because those zones are flightless. WPvP is only prevalent on the Timeless Isle because of the censor, otherwise WPvP would be dead. There is no plans, as of yet, to include an item like that in the expansion.

You are another person who ignores all the arguments in favor for statistics that are things you're pulling out of your ass. A number of things like a decreasing interest in MMOs, lack of interest in paying a 15 dollar sub price in a recession, the end of expansion slump, and other market competitors such as TESO, SWTOR, Wildstar, FF14, and much more exist now in a pallatable format that did not exist before.

Yet you account the lack on increase on TI, ToT zones, you somehow quantified that communication and interactions have not increased when I have clearly seen groups of players working together to stop ganks on TI, and to kill elites, so really, I'd rather speculate about potential improvements than listen to how your assumptions and "correlations" are true or not.

[Ordinator]

The only people I see support their claims are the people who want flight to stay...

An example of someone who doesn't provide support is the no-flying people like mbrnbr and yourself. He claims that it can potentially improve game play, but doesn't provide anything to back that up. It's pure speculation.

On the other hand you get someone that proves that flightless, current content doesn't improve anything. Look at Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle. Do you see sub numbers increasing? No. More than 70% of MoP open world life is flightless content. Half of MoP's open world, flightless content(Timeless Isle) is a good representation of what we will get in WoD(based on what Blizzard has told us). Communication and social interactions have not increased because those zones are flightless. WPvP is only prevalent on the Timeless Isle because of the censor, otherwise WPvP would be dead. There is no plans, as of yet, to include an item like that in the expansion.

Man.. this post just reeks of bias. On one hand you say only the anti flyers speculate. Then you offer your own "proof" which is honestly just your own god awful speculations.

[Deleted]

The only people I see support their claims are the people who want flight to stay...

An example of someone who doesn't provide support is the no-flying people like mbrnbr and yourself. He claims that it can potentially improve game play, but doesn't provide anything to back that up. It's pure speculation.

On the other hand you get someone that proves that flightless, current content doesn't improve anything. Look at Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle. Do you see sub numbers increasing? No. More than 70% of MoP open world life is flightless content. Half of MoP's open world, flightless content(Timeless Isle) is a good representation of what we will get in WoD(based on what Blizzard has told us). Communication and social interactions have not increased because those zones are flightless. WPvP is only prevalent on the Timeless Isle because of the censor, otherwise WPvP would be dead. There is no plans, as of yet, to include an item like that in the expansion.

Check my previous posts in this topic around page 300. I have pointed out several times that Blizzard has been looking towards this change since Sunwell patch. Every single time they introduce a new daily hub island where flying has been restricted, it generally has met which positivity, or they were insanely popular (except from maybe the Firelands, which was kind of shit, even in my opinion.).

Sub numbers aren't directly tied to the quality of the game. Let's be honest here, the game is in it's decline at it seems like it is finally stabilizing. If Sub numbers really were a direct indication of quality of the content, then WotLK was the best expansion ever, right? I mean, Naxx rehash, ToC, plenty of cut game features, introduction of queueing for pve content, etc?
Hell, even if you take a rise of sub numbers as a direct indication of quality of the game, then Vanilla and TBC were godlike, right? But if we compare it to the actual content we have today, it falls short immensily. WoW is a dated game, Sub numbers are naturally in decline, nothing is really going to change that.

On the other hand, I could use the same shitty argument and say: Last two expansion had flying, did we see a rise in sub numbers? Nah, only decline. Doesn't hold up, now does it?

Let's look at the other MMOs that have launched. Why do you think that ALL of them have the sense of not implementing flying? Because they have seen that it causes more trouble than it is worth.
In return you could say that all of them have failed stealing WoWs sub base. Which is true. But you have to look at other aspects why thos games failed. (Didn't bring in enough end game content to keep players, other places it fell short, etc).
If anything, one way the declining sub numbers could be explained is because today there is more competition in the market, thus it spreads the potential consumers out over multiple games.

I'll ask you a question which I asked 100 pages ago, which people have yet to answer: What does flying actually add to the game aside from being a convenience?
When one element of the game completely trivializes other parts of the game, it is bad design. Flying is exactly that.

[mbrmbr]

The only people I see support their claims are the people who want flight to stay...

An example of someone who doesn't provide support is the no-flying people like mbrnbr and yourself. He claims that it can potentially improve game play, but doesn't provide anything to back that up. It's pure speculation.

I know for a fact, that I think it is much more fun to explore a new world on ground than in air.

Apparently Blizzard think that too... and I'm sure you can find places where they explain their reason to make no fly in WoD, so it is not pure speculation at all.

Also... the leveling experience has been without flying in TBC, WOTLK and MOP... so it is not like we didn't try how it is already.

[Doomchicken]

Lets play a game of logic. A game where I describe two scenarios and you honestly tell me which one was more likely to be the cause.
Subs got to 8 million in vanilla because of
A) It's the fleshed out world that the RTS series warcraft introduced along with Characters from the insanely popular Warcraft 3 game.
B) Flying

Subs reached 11 mill by end of BC because of

A) Characters like Illidan, Kaelthas, Vashj. In the area known as outland. Also a major setting for the frozen throne campaign of warcraft 3, plus BC being the first expansion to a game 8 million people love
B) Flying

Subs hit their highest peak of 12.5 million by end of wrath because of

A) Being able to fight the lich king and his unstoppable army of death and explore northrend. Again, major themes and characters of Warcraft 3 and the expansion
B) Flying

Btw one of those is a trick question, If you hadn't figured it out. Also using it as a test to see whom actually reads posts.

You can also do the logic tests in the negative as well but my point is, that while I do not doubt in my mind that flying is popular to some people, it has never proven to be a make or break in either direction for a significant number of people and it never will be. Because in the grand scheme of all the things you can list about mmo's and this mmo in particular it is of the bottom of importance. Characters, places, themes along with good content has always been proven to be positive gainers. Double gating, Overtuned difficulties for casuals, bad characters and themes have always been proven to be big losers. And both have been while flying has existed.

[Nayaga]

I know for a fact, that I think it is much more fun to explore a new world on ground than in air.

Apparently Blizzard think that too... and I'm sure you can find places where they explain their reason to make no fly in WoD, so it is not pure speculation at all.

Also... the leveling experience has been without flying in TBC, WOTLK and MOP... so it is not like we didn't try how it is already.

You are right, there should be no flying while leveling. I thinks the same should be for exploring. Which is why I think there should be no flying until loremaster for WoD has been completed. That is when I want a challenging quest to earn flying once the content has been consumed.

[Doomchicken]

Honestly, Like I said 40-50 pages ago I'd be fine with them having Draenor non flyable until they bring out the island content, then make Draenor flying, new island content non flying, then next new island content non flying, old island content now with flying and so forth.
Have the newest areas non flying. That way Blizzard can have their cake and eat it too.

Despite my arguments in this thread, I'm not against flying, I'm just against people who think not having flying is going to kill this game when its never been shown to be a positive or a negative in sub numbers. That's all really.

[Nayaga]

What? Nonsensical posts? Do you even know what that means? I directly stated why you're wrong. Do everyone a favor and just give it up, your arguments make no sense. You gave an example where you suggested they remove air travel because it's too fast when it's true that people go on road trips because it's more engaging than just flying there. I just didn't point out something so clearly obvious because you have no idea at all what you're talking about. Just stop.

You can say someone is wrong, that does not make them wrong. Insulting someone and telling them to just stop is the method of failure in an argument. You've given your opinion, nothing more and nothing more than we pro-flyiers.

- - - Updated - - -

It is also a different discussion than the one that discusses the merits of flying. Caps, deliberate gated releases of raids, and other things slow down consumption more than keeping players on the ground.

There are many methods of slowing content consumptions down, flying being one of the best methods to do so.

- - - Updated - - -

DEM cats want EZ mode WoW to stay.

We don't want flying for easy mode. Easy mode is slogging through level 91 mobs at level 100, however its also boring and a complete waste of time (for me and many others). We want flying mode to avoid this easy and boring mode once content has already been consumed.

[Fenixdown]

Lets play a game of logic. A game where I describe two scenarios and you honestly tell me which one was more likely to be the cause.
Subs got to 8 million in vanilla because of
A) It's the fleshed out world that the RTS series warcraft introduced along with Characters from the insanely popular Warcraft 3 game.
B) Flying

Subs reached 11 mill by end of BC because of

A) Characters like Illidan, Kaelthas, Vashj. In the area known as outland. Also a major setting for the frozen throne campaign of warcraft 3, plus BC being the first expansion to a game 8 million people love
B) Flying

Subs hit their highest peak of 12.5 million by end of wrath because of

A) Being able to fight the lich king and his unstoppable army of death and explore northrend. Again, major themes and characters of Warcraft 3 and the expansion
B) Flying

Btw one of those is a trick question, If you hadn't figured it out. Also using it as a test to see whom actually reads posts.

You can also do the logic tests in the negative as well but my point is, that while I do not doubt in my mind that flying is popular to some people, it has never proven to be a make or break in either direction for a significant number of people and it never will be. Because in the grand scheme of all the things you can list about mmo's and this mmo in particular it is of the bottom of importance. Characters, places, themes along with good content has always been proven to be positive gainers. Double gating, Overtuned difficulties for casuals, bad characters and themes have always been proven to be big losers. And both have been while flying has existed.

I'll bite. Here's where things go even worse for your argument. On top of removing a feature people enjoy, they're doing all of that other stuff you just listed as negatives. Harder heroics, increasing grinds, did I mention alienating 10-man raiding guilds? While flight won't be a make or break reason for why this expansion is going to end up being a complete flop, it's definitely not going to help it. At this point, ANYthing that makes someone hit the cancel subscription button is probably not in the best interests of the game. So, that being said, why add fuel to an already raging inferno?

There's literally zero rhyme or reason for it. Furthermore, removing a feature from people who like it and giving them NOTHING as some sort of way to reach a median is just going to piss people off. You won't see a cheeseburger place charge you for cheese on your burger when they don't have any cheese to put on it int he first place. In a nutshell, that's exactly what they're doing. They took the cheese off and want to make us pay for it, anyway. Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my hard-earned money on something like that. Between Marvel Heroes and FF 14, I got plenty of games that can have that cash instead, and those are both companies that actually listen to their players. Maybe not initially, but definitely way sooner than Blizzard does. They don't "wait and see" until it's too late. In fact, no business with any kind of common sense would EVER do something so completely reckless. Which means whoever's putting the okay on these decisions must not even have a degree in economics, let alone a brain cell count higher than two.

[Doomchicken]

I'll bite. Here's where things go even worse for your argument. On top of removing a feature people enjoy, they're doing all of that other stuff you just listed as negatives. Harder heroics, increasing grinds, did I mention alienating 10-man raiding guilds? While flight won't be a make or break reason for why this expansion is going to end up being a complete flop, it's definitely not going to help it. At this point, ANYthing that makes someone hit the cancel subscription button is probably not in the best interests of the game. So, that being said, why add fuel to an already raging inferno?

There's literally zero rhyme or reason for it. Furthermore, removing a feature from people who like it and giving them NOTHING as some sort of way to reach a median is just going to piss people off. You won't see a cheeseburger place charge you for cheese on your burger when they don't have any cheese to put on it int he first place. In a nutshell, that's exactly what they're doing. They took the cheese off and want to make us pay for it, anyway. Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my hard-earned money on something like that. Between Marvel Heroes and FF 14, I got plenty of games that can have that cash instead, and those are both companies that actually listen to their players. Maybe not initially, but definitely way sooner than Blizzard does. They don't "wait and see" until it's too late. In fact, no business with any kind of common sense would EVER do something so completely reckless. Which means whoever's putting the okay on these decisions must not even have a degree in economics, let alone a brain cell count higher than two.

My argument has never been that it's going to help it, I simply stated the fact that it's never been proven to adversely effect the games health in sub numbers on way or the other. IF people react negatively to WoD, it'll be because of the harder heroics etc. IF people react positively to WoD it'll be because of the content and the characters and themes etc. Which is exactly what I said. Not having flying will not cause drove of players to come back, nor will it drive millions of players away.

[Stuffs]

My only issue is this basically scraps all of the old mounts unless they decide to make protodrakes ground mounts.

[Doomchicken]

My only issue is this basically scraps all of the old mounts unless they decide to make protodrakes ground mounts.

I believe they have stated that all flying mounts, including ashes of alar will have ground animations for WoD.