Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[quras]

I agree that they need to get more creative, but nevertheless they don't want players to use flying to complete content. Not every boss can sit in a fortress impregnable from the air.

And no boss needs to be standing out in the open just waiting to be killed by anyone that just wants to skip content.

Lets get blizzard to do more, not less. Removing flying at max level is not the answer to wows problems that you seem to seek.

With everyone mentality of flying is bad cause you can skip mobs, you might as well be arguing for removing ground mounts as well since everyone and their alts can ride past mobs at max level that they don't want to interact with. Sure, some toons do it better with stealth but since ground mounts allow everyone to skip garbage, lets remove it.

Same for flying, its a warped way to try and fix blizzards problems when you screw with game features that really are not the problem.

It isn't at all hypocritical, and I've just shown you how it isn't hypocritical using your own definition.

and I showed you why its hypocritical of you and blizzard. Just because you refuse to believe it does not change the definition of hypocrite. Which applies here.

Blizzard has said that they want people to get creative in dealing with content (i.e. stealthing and strategic avoidance of mobs is OK), but that flying doesn't fit into their paradigm. Nothing hypocritical about that.

While blizzard is more than welome to do as they want and they almost always do, there mentality on what content can be skipped that is OK and what content that can be skipped is not when out in the open is rather hypocritical.

Sure it's fine if you do it riding. Fine if you do it with class skills or any other way you can come up with - As long as you don't do it at max level and fly foing it.

Thats some "F"'d mentality in design and development when we all know it has not been a problem in the past expansions.

Your assertion that there is a lack of content lately is pure conjecture. It has been said that removing flying is a means to slow down consumption. There is nothing inherently wrong with slowing consumption speed. Blizzard does not have unlimited resources to produce an infinite stream of content. You need to accept that.

Really. Where is hell is the content for live as we speak and when will the next content for live come? Cataclysm and MoP was a travisty for content to paying gamers and the end of WoTLK was little better.

Lets not pretend we have gotten some amazing content in a timely manner from blizzard cause it's simply not true. The problem is slowing content consumption in the current way blizzard seems to be going is not actually fixing any problem. Removing flying at max level for TI style content doesn't magically make gamers want to see TI content. Hell, TI wasn't worth it when it was free much less for $50/

Blizzard doesn't need to have unlimited resources to be a little creative in what they have and do. The problem with slowing down content consumption the way blizzard is, is the removal of features gamers like, blizzard is still selling and removing in content they want you to pay more for all so they can reap more money out of you. It's not like their doing it for teh benefit of the gamers or to make some amazing game play.

You need to accept that.

Business is business and in most cases thats fine and but there is no need to support them when they do not make even the basic of decisions that are for the gamers benefit and removing flying at max level is not for your benefit. Way to much gratitude is being handed out to blizzard on this just so you have to trudge though mounds of worthless trash getting to the place you want all so blizzard can make you play longer while at the same time trying to sell you the things they are limiting.

most gamers need to watch this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...amer-Gratitude

as blizzard isn't doing this to make you a better game.

If you are talking about avoiding content you aren't consuming more, you're consuming it differently. This would be more like a cone vs a cup. Now if were to say the issue is safety now ground vs flying avoidance has an actual relevant difference. Flying is safer. Larger due to design implementation. Now your cone vs gallon analogy works a bit better =P

But if it's bad due to avoidance its hypocrisy, if it's bad due to safety...no one in pro flight group has really said it shouldn't be riskier. Hell I remember when it was. Druid & Typhoon & (3+ second fall or cat form) = many luls

Pretty much. So many other ways to for creative design to come though on flying and leave it in game and blizzard chose, "Take that shit out! but don't stop selling it to them."

[Deleted]

And no boss needs to be standing out in the open just waiting to be killed by anyone that just wants to skip content.

Lets get blizzard to do more, not less. Removing flying at max level is not the answer to wows problems that you seem to seek.

Then lets say Blizzard implemented one epic quest with a Castle in the outside world. A castle protected with gates and walls.
And on the top of the Castle (in the balcony) is the Boss to complete the epic quest.
You are supposed to raid the Castle walls and kill mini bosses thought the entire castle and pass lots of challenges....

How are you going to fix the problem of players simply flying to the top of the Castle and one shot the last Boss right away -___-
Don´t even try saying people will have the "honor" to actually pass the entire process that was designed for us in the first place- everyone will choose to skip everything and rush to the last boss via flyng mount.

See how f.mounts destroys gameplay? Every time the same solution is crap design----make content inside caves so no one can fly...

[Nayaga]

Then lets say Blizzard implemented one epic quest with a Castle in the outside world. A castle protected with gates and walls.
And on the top of the Castle (in the balcony) is the Boss to complete the epic quest.
You are supposed to raid the Castle walls and kill mini bosses thought the entire castle and pass lots of challenges....

How are you going to fix the problem of players simply flying to the top of the Castle and one shot the last Boss right away -___-
Don´t even try saying people will have the "honor" to actually pass the entire process that was designed for us in the first place- everyone will choose to skip everything and rush to the last boss via flyng mount.

See how f.mounts destroys gameplay? Every time the same solution is crap design----make content inside caves so no one can fly...

For that, just require something like kill 20 boss minions too.

[Nurvus]

@quras

It really doesn't matter what way you try to spin it.
As it is implemented, Flying is fundamentally broken when compared to stealth, ground mounts or ground travel, and defeats a large amount of gameplay and counterplay.
This goes for PvE and PvP.

Stealth vs Running vs Ground Mounts are fairly reasonable choices. Each has its pros and cons, each is better at certain areas, but there isn't one that just makes all others meaningless.

1. Sometimes it's a short enough distance that you don't need to use your ground mount, or perhaps you just have everything so packed together you can just use your class abilities like heroic leap or blink.
2. Stealth lets you get past mobs, but you move slower than ground mounts, and if you come out of stealth to grab a chest or quest interactable, you give up part of your combat advantage.
3. Ground Mounts do not make you "invulnerable" like flying mounts do, either. You will take damage, can be chased by other players, snared, CC'd, and even dismounted.
4. Furthermore - and this is probably the most important part - other players can also stealth or run or use their ground mounts to chase or ambush you in the meanwhile - there is counterplay.

However, with a Flying mount...
a) not only you transform the open world into nothing more than a series of dots where you land, complete a certain objective and fly away
b) you also do everything easier, faster and safer than with any of the other ways of travel.

This means Flying is never an "alternative" or "choice of gameplay" - it is simply better.

If both of us are on the ground - mounted or not - we can attack each other.
If both of us are stealthed, you can find me first and gain advantage.
If both of us are flying high enough, nothing happens unless one of us is simply stupid.

[Destruktion]

And no boss needs to be standing out in the open just waiting to be killed by anyone that just wants to skip content.

Lets get blizzard to do more, not less. Removing flying at max level is not the answer to wows problems that you seem to seek.

With everyone mentality of flying is bad cause you can skip mobs, you might as well be arguing for removing ground mounts as well since everyone and their alts can ride past mobs at max level that they don't want to interact with. Sure, some toons do it better with stealth but since ground mounts allow everyone to skip garbage, lets remove it.

Same for flying, its a warped way to try and fix blizzards problems when you screw with game features that really are not the problem.

No, I might as well not be arguing that because I don't believe in that. I'm not obligated to believe that every little convenience should be removed just because I think ONE certain convenience is a bit too much. I don't have to conform to your black-and-white "100% mob skipping or 0% mob skipping" worldview. I have my opinion, I have demonstrated that it is valid with reasoning, get over it.

and I showed you why its hypocritical of you and blizzard. Just because you refuse to believe it does not change the definition of hypocrite. Which applies here.

You never actually demonstrated any hypocrisy, even by the definition YOU provided.

While blizzard is more than welome to do as they want and they almost always do, there mentality on what content can be skipped that is OK and what content that can be skipped is not when out in the open is rather hypocritical.

Sure it's fine if you do it riding. Fine if you do it with class skills or any other way you can come up with - As long as you don't do it at max level and fly foing it.

Thats some "F"'d mentality in design and development when we all know it has not been a problem in the past expansions.

You may not agree with it, but you don't get to call it hypocritical because it isn't hypocrisy.
Call it shitty game design if you want, but calling it hypocrisy is simply demonstrably false.

Really. Where is hell is the content for live as we speak and when will the next content for live come? Cataclysm and MoP was a travisty for content to paying gamers and the end of WoTLK was little better.

So your issue is with, what, content droughts?

Lets not pretend we have gotten some amazing content in a timely manner from blizzard cause it's simply not true. The problem is slowing content consumption in the current way blizzard seems to be going is not actually fixing any problem. Removing flying at max level for TI style content doesn't magically make gamers want to see TI content. Hell, TI wasn't worth it when it was free much less for $50/

Disagree. If the perception is that open-world content is consumed a bit too quickly, limiting flying is one way to solve that issue.

Blizzard doesn't need to have unlimited resources to be a little creative in what they have and do. The problem with slowing down content consumption the way blizzard is, is the removal of features gamers like, blizzard is still selling and removing in content they want you to pay more for all so they can reap more money out of you. It's not like their doing it for teh benefit of the gamers or to make some amazing game play.

How about you make some creative suggestions for what they can do instead? I hope you know that criticism is only constructive if you suggest an alternative to what you're criticizing.

Business is business and in most cases thats fine and but there is no need to support them when they do not make even the basic of decisions that are for the gamers benefit and removing flying at max level is not for your benefit. Way to much gratitude is being handed out to blizzard on this just so you have to trudge though mounds of worthless trash getting to the place you want all so blizzard can make you play longer while at the same time trying to sell you the things they are limiting.

It is arguable whether or not removing flying is for the benefit of the player. It is also arguable that Blizzard is doing this for reasons other than monetary gain.

[Bacon is the Answer]

Then lets say Blizzard implemented one epic quest with a Castle in the outside world. A castle protected with gates and walls.
And on the top of the Castle (in the balcony) is the Boss to complete the epic quest.
You are supposed to raid the Castle walls and kill mini bosses thought the entire castle and pass lots of challenges....

How are you going to fix the problem of players simply flying to the top of the Castle and one shot the last Boss right away -___-

It's called Kharazhan. You should go there sometime. Everything is phased from INSIDE the castle.

[Nurvus]

It's called Kharazhan. You should go there sometime. Everything is phased from INSIDE the castle.

You must be a great tank, because you apparently have a 60% chance to Dodge Context and 60% chance to Parry undesirable keywords such as outside world.

The irony is that if you enjoy instanced content so much, you don't need flying.

[Dragoncurry]

It's called Kharazhan. You should go there sometime. Everything is phased from INSIDE the castle.

Kharazan is a raid. He meant a quest that did what Kharazan did, without making it an instanced event. No need to be snippy when someone provides a scenario that shows you exactly why flying would trivialize the entire castle by allowing you to fly to the top of it to just kill the miniboss.

[Bacon is the Answer]

You must be a great tank, because you apparently have a 60% chance to Dodge Context and 60% chance to Parry undesirable keywords such as outside world.

Karazhan is a castle that exists in the outside world of Deadwind Pass. You can enter it just fine from a few different angles.

[Dragoncurry]

Karazhan is a castle that exists in the outside world of Deadwind Pass. You can enter it just fine from a few different angles.

Lol, this guy is the rep for pro-fliers? I think we know why Blizzard doesn't heed your reasoning.

[Bacon is the Answer]

Kharazan is a raid. He meant a quest that did what Kharazan did, without making it an instanced event. No need to be snippy when someone provides a scenario that shows you exactly why flying would trivialize the entire castle by allowing you to fly to the top of it to just kill the miniboss.

Well, since Kara exists in the outside world, his theory is flawed. Also, Blackwing Depths takes place on the very terrace in a phased instance that there is a real summoning stone to enter Blackwing Descent. Flying cannot ruin these things because of the phasing technology that blizz already possesses.

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Lol, this guy is the rep for pro-fliers? I think we know why Blizzard doesn't heed your reasoning.

Do you ever make a retort without personally attacking someone's character or opinion? Or are you just "that way" to everyone. Also, never said I was a Rep. That would be you, exercising your power of assumption.

[Nurvus]

Karazhan is a castle that exists in the outside world of Deadwind Pass. You can enter it just fine from a few different angles.

And you keep at it.
YOU are the one who mentioned Kharazhan while ignoring what he actually meant.

Anyone interested in actual constructive discussion can tell he was talking about a castle that is completely (inside and outside) in the open world - not instanced.
This is made obvious by the following comment about how flying completely shits on the whole thing by letting you skip all mobs and challenges and hop right onto the balcony where the boss is.

People who are complaining about the removal of flying seem to be unable to discuss the matter without conveniently avoiding, misquoting or ignoring the context of anything that proves them wrong.

Again, if you enjoy instanced content so much, you don't need flying.

[Dragoncurry]

Well, since Kara exists in the outside world, his theory is flawed. Also, Blackwing Depths takes place on the very terrace in a phased instance that there is a real summoning stone to enter Blackwing Descent. Flying cannot ruin these things because of the phasing technology that blizz already possesses.

...except bosses don't exist in the outside world in the form of a tall castle because people will fly into it, skipping most of the content. Case in point: Kill the Alliance leader in Karasang Wilds during the legendary questline. You can bypass all of the defenses Blizzard put into the fort, fly over it and land on the top bridge. You can kill 2 mobs, skipping 50 more, and kill the main guy and then fly the fuck out.

This is okay with you?

[Bacon is the Answer]

And you keep at it.
Anyone can tell he was talking about a castle that is completely (inside and outside) in the open world - not instanced.
This is made obvious by the following comment about how flying completely shits on the whole thing by letting you skip all mobs and challenges and hop right onto the balcony where the boss is.

People who are complaining about the removal of flying seem to be unable to discuss the matter without conveniently ignoring, blocking or denying anything that shows them wrong.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about the people who encourage the removal of an 8 year old feature. It's almost as though they will say anything to discredit flying and make people glaze over my opinion. Blizz doesn't have anything that matches his scenario, so again, his point is INVALID.

[Dragoncurry]

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about the people who encourage the removal of an 8 year old feature. It's almost as though they will say anything to discredit flying and make people glaze over my opinion. Blizz doesn't have anything that matches his scenario, so again, his point is INVALID.

Really? I just showed you one.

[Nurvus]

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about the people who encourage the removal of an 8 year old feature. It's almost as though they will say anything to discredit flying and make people glaze over my opinion. Blizz doesn't have anything that matches his scenario, so again, his point is INVALID.

And your head is still stuck beneath the ground!

What's the point in Blizzard designing such content if Flying works the way it does?
Still having a hard time getting it?

I want flying to stay in the game, but for the spite of sylvanas change the damn flying or mount mechanics so that it no longer shits on other ways of travel.

[Bacon is the Answer]

...except bosses don't exist in the outside world in the form of a tall castle because people will fly into it, skipping most of the content. Case in point: Kill the Alliance leader in Karasang Wilds during the legendary questline. You can bypass all of the defenses Blizzard put into the fort, fly over it and land on the top bridge. You can kill 2 mobs, skipping 50 more, and kill the main guy and then fly the fuck out.

This is okay with you?

Bosses don't need castles. The Sha, Oondasta, Galleon, and all the rest are not guarded, and everyone can get to them just fine. There are no bosses in castles. Unless you count the guy at Domination Point in Krasarang Wilds. But, if you fly in, you get shot down, dismounted, and attacked before you ever make it into the tower since there are no landing spots to just waltz right in. However, THAT method was deemed unsuitable by Blizz as a fix, and will not be implemented. So, when they add flight back in after the uproar (it's painfully obvious at this point), you will get 310% flight, with no consequences and no restrictions. If I were you, I would not be asking for removal, I would be asking for Balance. Cause if they don't balance/fix it, we get the OP version back with 6.1, and then the anti-fliers will just have to suck it.

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And your head is still stuck beneath the ground!

What's the point in Blizzard designing such content if Flying works the way it does?
Still having a hard time getting it?

It works just fine at the tower in Krasarang Wilds, at Domination Point.

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I want flying to stay in the game, but for the spite of sylvanas change the damn flying or mount mechanics so that it no longer shits on other ways of travel.

Agreed. Lower the skybox, reduce flight speed to 100%, add ground npcs and aggro, and add more Player controlled Dismount items like the hardened shell.

[rpdrichard]

This means Flying is never an "alternative" or "choice of gameplay" - it is simply better.

If both of us are on the ground - mounted or not - we can attack each other.
If both of us are stealthed, you can find me first and gain advantage.
If both of us are flying high enough, nothing happens unless one of us is simply stupid.

Flying is the better choice as you recall but not the only one

If both of us are on a pve server with the never flag me for pvp option that will come in WoD active nothing will happen anyway

I want flying to stay in the game, but for the spite of sylvanas change the damn flying or mount mechanics so that it no longer shits on other ways of travel.

A Afrasiabi said that around 50% of players like the current way flying is in the game, so you want to screw about half of the playerbase so the ground mounts and flightpaths can feel better about themselves

[Bacon is the Answer]

Really? I just showed you one.

Wasn't talking to you. You're only goal is to harass others.

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If both of us are on a pve server with the never flag me for pvp option that will come in WoD active nothing will happen anyway

True story.

[Sweetpeaz]

most gamers need to watch this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...amer-Gratitude

as blizzard isn't doing this to make you a better game.

That video is freaking brilliant. Loved it. It encapsulates this issue well. They are selling us a solution to a problem that they created, and too many people act as if they should be grateful for it.

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Except from Blizzard's standpoint, not once did they mention this change being geared towards a PvP enhancement in the slightest. I know it will be an awesome byproduct. But if it's not their reasoning for the change to begin with, i doubt they would even consider this.

According to a lot of people here, it's also not about increasing the length of content either.

I guess one thing I know for sure, I cannot expect them to be honest about it. Their motives are to make money, mine are to have fun playing a game.