Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[gamingmuscle]

And why would they? They never mass communicate anything about upcoming expansions.

If they wanted to be responsible to the customers who they are selling goods that are designed around a feature they plan to severely limit in the near future? They certainly do not have to do this. But doings so may lessen any negative impacts of this change. If they were changing a feature not tied to purchasable luxury goods, I'd be less interested in them being more forth coming about the change =P

[Real World]

If they wanted to be responsible to the customers who they are selling goods that are designed around a feature they plan to severely limit in the near future? They certainly do not have to do this. But doings so may lessen any negative impacts of this change. If they were changing a feature not tied to purchasable luxury goods, I'd be less interested in them being more forth coming about the change =P

Which is what leads me to believe the change is still only temporary until 6.1.

[bryroo]

I'm not sure either of you understand what the word 'ethics' means.

Semantics and skirting technicalities don't build customer loyalty, they destroy it.

Making major changes to a product after you've sold it just leads to what it already has: people demanding their money back.

I've never said Blizzard is doing anything illegal but I have said they've acted unethically by selling a product and then poorly communicating design changes that may affect a customer's purchasing decision.

If Blizzard comes out tomorrow and says 'we've made up our minds, here's what we're doing going forward and if you disagree we'll happily facilitate a refund' then I"ll shut my mouth and be a happy camper. I'm not delusional enough to believe they haven't made up their minds at this point though.

[cabyio]

If they wanted to be responsible to the customers who they are selling goods that are designed around a feature they plan to severely limit in the near future? They certainly do not have to do this. But doings so may lessen any negative impacts of this change. If they were changing a feature not tied to purchasable luxury goods, I'd be less interested in them being more forth coming about the change =P

But it might only be a very temporary limit so to say anything at this point would just be putting info out there that is neither solid nor complete. That would be irresponsible. Also, alpha alpha alpha. If you purchase the game right now you are not guaranteed anything, drastic changes can and usually do happen between the start of alpha and release of a game.

[Drytoast]

I would say, "So far, in Alpha..." and then I would ramble on about the things Blizz could improve. And then, as Blizz, I would improve them by launch. If it happens or not, is entirely in Blizzard's hands. But, if it stays lackluster even after the feedback, Flying is as good as added back in by 6.1.

And this is where I can assure you that the gamplay you are seeing now isn't going to be much different than to what you will play in alpha. Minus some tweaks in times/bug fixing, perhaps some dialogue changes...small things that are fixable without much of a headache or redo. How the quests play out, as to how they are presented will not change at this point. My guess is right now, they are probably focused on raid content atm as far as actually laying out how it plays out.

When a company opens up Alpha for testing, most of the major decisions have been made. And it would be very costly indeed for Blizzard to pull a redo, even with how quests work for that would pull designers off of what they are currently working on.

So please, take this as truth. How you see the quests and gameplay in general playing out in alpha, is how it will be on release. Minus a few small tweaks and changes to things that do not drastically alter gameplay.

[bryroo]

Which is what leads me to believe the change is still only temporary until 6.1.

And that would be a amicable compromise to both sides of the debate except for the most die hard zealots but Blizzard needs to put it's big boy pants on and say that instead of waffling around on one side of the fence and taking people's money on the other.

[gamingmuscle]

I'm not asking to take it away. I'm asking for incentives and balances to get people on the ground and in the world again. Let people queue for dungeons in the capital and let them port there, but give people willing to form a natural group and get their on their own more XP, more gold, and more drops from the dungeon. Have world bosses that are relevant and allow both factions to get credit for the tap like they did with the Celestials. Put PVP objectives in a zone that reward enough honor that you'd actually have a reason to bother with them. Balance flying by placing mobs in the air like the old Kaliri, adding powerful AA guns to Iron Horde controlled zones, lowering the flight ceiling, and giving players and grappling hook to pull opposing faction members off their mounts.

Why are you arguing with me then. My post have entirely been about if you want people in the world you have to add stuff that they want to do in the world. After leveling the open world offers very little continuous content. How a player travels to get to the content is largely negligible on the effect the world feeling full.

Giving an incentive to to forming your own groups. Maybe. Tho I'm never a fan of policing people to make them do what they claim they want to do. If you can't choose to do it, you don't really want to do it =P

[cabyio]

I'm not sure either of you understand what the word 'ethics' means.

Semantics and skirting technicalities don't build customer loyalty, they destroy it.

Making major changes to a product after you've sold it just leads to what it already has: people demanding their money back.

I've never said Blizzard is doing anything illegal but I have said they've acted unethically by selling a product and then poorly communicating design changes that may affect a customer's purchasing decision.

If Blizzard comes out tomorrow and says 'we've made up our minds, here's what we're doing going forward and if you disagree we'll happily facilitate a refund' then I"ll shut my mouth and be a happy camper. I'm not delusional enough to believe they haven't made up their minds at this point though.

The point is if you pre-purchase something that is still in alpha and then get mad when things change.... YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ALPHA IS. If you want things to be solid, wait for release, review the features, then purchase. Also I would bet the amount of no-flying refunds is an extremely minimal percentage of total pre-orders and even smaller percentage of total players. Even after the fact when a majority of people figure out there is no flying (for at least the first patch) that most wont care enough to quit. This is not nearly the momentous event you wish it was.

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And that would be a amicable compromise to both sides of the debate except for the most die hard zealots but Blizzard needs to put it's big boy pants on and say that instead of waffling around on one side of the fence and taking people's money on the other.

Jesus... they have said they want to gather data first. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

[bryroo]

When was the last time they used that for anything but maintenance and server messages? Also, what would you imagine it to say? Hey... we might have no flying at max level in WoD, but its not for sure....

I read about the changes to the healing paradigm from the log on screen.

[Perkunas]

Why are you arguing with me then. My post have entirely been about if you want people in the world you have to add stuff that they want to do in the world. After leveling the open world offers very little continuous content. How a player travels to get to the content is largely negligible on the effect the world feeling full.

Giving an incentive to to forming your own groups. Maybe. Tho I'm never a fan of policing people to make them do what they claim they want to do. If you can't choose to do it, you don't really want to do it =P

My only issue with flight is that it too good. If flight was balanced properly I wouldn't care about it at all. As it stands currently it needs to be either slowed down and remain super safe or it needs to be made more dangerous than traveling on the ground to balance that speed.

[gamingmuscle]

Jesus... they have said they want to gather data first. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

Usually when a company does that....they don't use their entire customer base =P If you really aren't sure, you test it out. Maybe alpha and beta could do that. But I wouldn't sell something that is designed around something that is in limbo. That sounds like bad business to me =P

[bryroo]

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Jesus... they have said they want to gather data first. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

It's hard for me to understand because unless they're doing a zone with flight and then the same zone without flight there's no relevant data to gather. It's empty RP spin.

Here's the data: players are walking and taking taxis. They don't have anything to compare that to other than how they used to fly.

[gamingmuscle]

My only issue with flight is that it too good. If flight was balanced properly I wouldn't care about it at all. As it stands currently it needs to be either slowed down and remain super safe or it needs to be made more dangerous than traveling on the ground to balance that speed.

Those are possibilities. All of which have been mentioned by pretty much every pro flight person in this thread =P And far more interesting in game play than axing the feature imo =P

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Which is what leads me to believe the change is still only temporary until 6.1.

I'd hope so, but working in the corporate environments that I have, I've learned to never underestimate the level stupid decisions =P

[cabyio]

Usually when a company does that....they don't use their entire customer base =P If you really aren't sure, you test it out. Maybe alpha and beta could do that. But I wouldn't sell something that is designed around something that is in limbo. That sounds like bad business to me =P

Saying wow is designed around flying is just silly. Flying is a small convenience in the game, not its core.

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It's hard for me to understand because unless they're doing a zone with flight and then the same zone without flight there's no relevant data to gather. It's empty RP spin.

Here's the data: players are walking and taking taxis. They don't have anything to compare that to other than how they used to fly.

Sure there is. How does sub retention look? Are people skipping things they might not if they had flying? There are all kinds of data metrics they can use and I have no doubt they already have a plan setup on how to decide to keep it or revert it.

[gamingmuscle]

Saying wow is designed around flying is just silly. Flying is a small convenience in the game, not its core.

At what point did I say it was core? But it is a feature that is used by effectively the entire player base =P Which makes it important.

[cabyio]

At what point did I say it was core? But it is a feature that is used by effectively the entire player base =P Which makes it important.

So is reforging, yet out it went.

EDIT: You said " But I wouldn't sell something that is designed around something that is in limbo" which makes it sound like the game is designed around flying, which would make it core if everything is designed around it.

[bryroo]

Sure there is. How does sub retention look? Are people skipping things they might not if they had flying? There are all kinds of data metrics they can use and I have no doubt they already have a plan setup on how to decide to keep it or revert it.

I will admit that making stupid changes and then reverting back after losing a ton of subscriptions is pretty much the status quo for new expansions. It's also partly why I don't have much faith in Blizzard at this point. They can't do things in moderation.

[gamingmuscle]

So is reforging, yet out it went.

That doesn't actually help your stance. They can axe any feature they want. Whether or not that is a good thing for them and or the customers is different. I'm not going to get into the merits of keeping reforging vs axing it. Seeing as we lost stats and gained new ones, and gear in generally is drastically different.

EDIT: You said " But I wouldn't sell something that is designed around something that is in limbo" which makes it sound like the game is designed around flying, which would make it core if everything is designed around it.

In that statement luxury mounts are the thing being sold, and the thing in limbo is flying. I thought that was fairly obvious from the context of previous posts. Sorry.

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I will admit that making stupid changes and then reverting back after losing a ton of subscriptions is pretty much the status quo for new expansions. It's also partly why I don't have much faith in Blizzard at this point. They can't do things in moderation.

I attribute the steady decline to churn+market saturation (a severely dwindled influx of new customers). The large spikes in sub losses, that is due to making customers unhappy =P

[bryroo]

That doesn't actually help your stance. They can axe any feature they want. Whether or not that is a good thing for them and or the customers is different. I'm not going to get into the merits of keeping reforging vs axing it. Seeing as we lost stats and gained new ones, and gear in generally is drastically different.



In that statement luxury mounts are the thing being sold, and the thing in limbo is flying. I thought that was fairly obvious from the context of previous posts. Sorry.

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I attribute the steady decline to churn+market saturation (a severely dwindled influx of new customers). The large spikes in sub losses, that is due to making customers unhappy =P

Yea, that's a whole other crazy mess. Selling someone a big ass bat with a 20 foot wing span and then telling them they can take it for a walk is pretty damn insulting. "That plane you just bought from us? You can't fly it but because we're so nice we'll let you drive around town. Thank you for shopping Bend Over and Take It Airlines."

[Deleted]

At least I'm happy about it. The game was more immersive before flying mounts came in and made it empty. Yay for meeting other players again.