Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Raeln]

That would be stupid. LOL. As your ground mount probably would generate enough lift to fly...

Sigh. If we are going to try to inject realism into WoW, I'm just going to toss out there that there isn't a personal mount in the world that would be capable of lifting a plate wearing warrior/paladin/DK that is carrying their two to three sets of gear in their bags. That's a lot of weight.

So yeah, it's all "magical" - that's how we have to explain any of it working - especially since flying machines don't "exist" in our much more technological advance real world. (Exist, meaning to the point of common personal transportation)

On top of all that, I don't think there is a bird in our real world that can fly as comparably fast as a WoW mount can while carrying no load at all.

[-Superman-]

It's turning godmode on.

God Mode

1. A cheat in many video and computer games that typically renders the player invulnerable.

2. In roleplaying, when one player speaks or acts as another player or group of players or causes them to feel or think certain things without their consent, or resolves a situation without input from a game master or moderator.

Examples:

1. The end boss kept one-hitting him so he turned on god mode and rushed it with his axe.

2. The player was banned after godmoding a combat situation which resulted in another player's death without giving him opportunity to react.

Flight is not god mode, and your inaccurate definition has you believing you are correct. Flight is simply the ability to move from point A to point B very quickly. It is important to understand a GAME MECHANIC is not a CHEAT when the game developer is the one who incorporates and allows it.

[Raeln]

a friend of mine took a moment and explained us about reptiles and genitalia.
I will never forget that.

I prefer the answer, "a wizard did it."

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How is Blizzard going to make gathering just as efficient as it is today? I can see gathering participation taking a massive hit, making more for those who put up with the brutality of running a zone over and over.

Here are some things that I thought of in less than 30 seconds:

a) make nodes personal - meaning they can't be ninja'd from you (like GW2)

b) increase the number of ores/herbs from gathering a node - this lessens the number of nodes you actually need to farm to make a single item.

c) decrease the number of ore/herbs/items needed to make a crafting combine. Some of the recipes are stupid - requiring 8 of something? Pssfaw!

d) increase the number of node spawns active per zone at any one time.

e) increase the number of potential node spawn locations.

My 30 seconds is up.

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Flying gives you power in one and only one way - moving from point A to point B. Making flying less effective at getting from point A to point B would in fact, negate the reason anyone would be on a flying mount in the first place. We don't make planes so that we can go from NY to LA at the same speed as in a car or a train.

Traveling by airplane in the real world is exactly like traveling in WoW by flightpath. You go from specific locations to specific destinations.

That airplane cannot just sit down on a dime in the middle of the forest, then take back off 3 seconds later.

The closest thing to flying mounts that the real world has to offer is those rickety personal aircraft things that I'm constantly hearing about crashing somewhere. Only like 1 in a million people have one - so they are exceedingly rare among the population.

[khalltusk]

That's a large estimate. I have no doubt that some will quit, primarily of being tired of the game, and claim it was due to no-flight but it won't be 4-5M, not on flight alone. There's not even that many players out in the world after leveling.

Still yet, even if 4-5M quit - where are they going to go? Almost no other AAA MMO offers flying at all, let alone temporary.

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In the past, yes I did want Arenas removed. I was raging over it enough that not only did I want them removed, I wanted the devs responsible for coming with the idea fired and banned from working on video games in the future.

Nowadays I just don't do PvP anymore and really could care less. Much healthier for me.

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Doesn't really work - you'll end up agro'ing more mobs while you are trying to leash the ones you have. Believe me, I have tried this over the years - it's better to just stand and fight (hoping no one else will ninja the node) or leash and look for another node.

I remember when Blizzard thought they needed to increase the agro range of hitting a mining node. Suddenly every mob in 20 yards would come running. Why a wolf ever cared about a copper node is beyond me but man that change was frustrating.



It's turning godmode on. I'm not going to go far enough to say it's cheating - obviously it's not when it's something the devs put in years ago; however, I fail to see how anyone can objectively look at the benefits a flying mount provide, then look objectively at how they have no disadvantages and say that is healthy for a game that hopes to remain relevant for another decade.

When I had no flying I simply took flight paths to where I wanted to go. If I was mining/picking herbs I would ride my mount to where I wanted to go and avoid most aggro. All flying mounts have done has sped this up for me. Yes you can escape PVP but you could do the same on ground mounts as well (although there is more risk of being engaged again).

For me I think its not the best of ideas to deny flying at Max level in a new expansion BUT I will see how it works and how I go with it when the time comes. I am going to probably go back to my vanilla line set of "flight path to where I want to be mount to my farm spots farm asap do dungeons etc." The only difference, the type of mount.

[Raeln]

Even if no flying does breathe new life into WPvP, all of us PvEers are still gonna be sitting around, Trolls holding hands with Gnomes and singing kumbaya.

I only wish. They aren't lifting the faction restrictions on PvE servers though - at least not yet.

[Raeln]

People don't want to PvP at Huolon because if they screw up and die they risk Huolon spawning and dying before they can get back to their body and tag it.

If anything, spawns like that discourage world PvP.

That is exactly the type of thing that encourages world PvP. One faction tries to deny it to the other faction.

Flying mounts and queued content removed those things from the game world. It effectively removed things worth fighting over.

... and yes, all world PvP is meaningless in the long run, as is all the PvE content as well. It's a game and none of it will put more food on our families table next week - unless you're a gold farmer.

[gamingmuscle]

2)Blizzard said multiple times they can make gathering just as efficient. Wanting to gather really fast is an awful argument for flying.

Lets assume they make it as efficient, it still has a greater cost to the gather because ground travel is more of hassle than air travel. Increasing the hassle to do it, will decrease the number of people willing to do it.

3)Would love to hear some reasons on that? Less people then there are currently? because I don't think that's possible.

Really this was the same as #2, if interacting with the open world becomes "harder" less people are going to want to do it.

4)That's the exact opposite of what will happen. The giant vast nothingness that is the sky IS NOT part of the world and should not be treated as such. The ground on the other hand (the only part of the game that matters) will with out a doubt feel much larger and more significant. So i couldn't disagree with this point anymore.

3d is bigger than 2d. I recognize that blizzard hasn't utilized it as much as they could. But they would be undeniably making the world smaller. ARe you unable to recognize speed differences and what that does to commute times? Faster speed makes commute times shorter. It doesn't make the world feel smaller, just the trip shorter. Maybe that's what you and everyone else means when they make that silly statement.

[-Superman-]

In the past, yes I did want Arenas removed. I was raging over it enough that not only did I want them removed, I wanted the devs responsible for coming with the idea fired and banned from working on video games in the future.

Nowadays I just don't do PvP anymore and really could care less. Much healthier for me.

Sounds like you are on the same witch hunt for flying. I don't pvp either. I have no desire to interact with those people.

[Raeln]

And they're all really easy to get to... Maybe the one in the Ordon area requires a little work, but not much, just skilled roof running and jumping. Or fly-out and dismount and pally-bubble.

Because everyone has pally-bubble, amirite?

Of course there are ways to cheese some of these things - it's a game and they are trying new things (to WoW).

For the record, I have flown up and dismounted using my goblin glider cloak tinker too.

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What have we been paying Blizzard for all these years? It's their damn job to provide interesting content. If they can figure out what I like about dungeons and bring that out into the open world, then they have a winning idea. If all they can do is put prizes on the ground and hope that will be enough for people, that is lazy and only good until people have their goodies. Just like TI.

Putting prizes on the ground, usually behind a group of monsters has been what RPGs have been about for 50 years.

Where have you been?

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I like working with a small team, heroic dungeon bosses when they were actually threatening, getting a fairly good chance at loot instead of random bags of gold because fuck you for the week. Raid feel too large and people lose accountability. I like teaming up with freinds or strangers and even forming a short term bond to defeat some tough enemies. Ya know, without whacking on a monolithic health bar for 10+ minutes. So really, I don't know how you can incorporate small scale teamwork into an open world setting and give a chance at decent loot as well. But then again, it isn't my job to figure that out.

I like the small group feel myself but I've always found it odd that some snake boss spat out a perfectly undamaged awesome chestplate when we killed it. Looting a treasure chest that he was guarding makes much more sense.

What makes even more sense is looting a chunk of special metallic ore from that chest that I can take back to town, find another player that is also playing the game that makes the armor I need and pay him to make me the perfectly undamaged awesome chestplate.

You see, part of the reason the community is suffering is because the community has no role past being a collective to form groups with. There is very little interaction past that. All the "gear" is looted in perfect condition form a corpse/chest and needs to interaction with any other tradeskiller.

Shoot, blacksmiths/tailors/leatherworkers can't even repair people's gear either. They can make it but not repair it? Wut?

[gamingmuscle]

That is exactly the type of thing that encourages world PvP. One faction tries to deny it to the other faction.

Flying mounts and queued content removed those things from the game world. It effectively removed things worth fighting over.

... and yes, all world PvP is meaningless in the long run, as is all the PvE content as well. It's a game and none of it will put more food on our families table next week - unless you're a gold farmer.

Wpvp was dead before we even had flying lol. What killed wpvp was having no reason to go out into the world and actively stay there. Running to a portal for dungeon/raid/bg doesn't really count.

[Wrathonia]

Because everyone has pally-bubble, amirite?

Of course there are ways to cheese some of these things - it's a game and they are trying new things (to WoW).

For the record, I have flown up and dismounted using my goblin glider cloak tinker too.

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Putting prizes on the ground, usually behind a group of monsters has been what RPGs have been about for 50 years.

Where have you been?

Nothing on the scale, ease and proliferation we had with Timeless Isle. Most of the chests weren't guarded at all. The loot they gave was far above the "challenge" required in getting them. You really can't compare them that way. Also, chests are supposed to be super rare and random in the open world and you might get something you can use, but most likely it is something to sell. And to top it all off you can't compare a standard RPG to a MMORPG. They can't function the same way. They have to do thing differently because of the number of players. Get out of here with that garbage.

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I like the small group feel myself but I've always found it odd that some snake boss spat out a perfectly undamaged awesome chestplate when we killed it. Looting a treasure chest that he was guarding makes much more sense.

What makes even more sense is looting a chunk of special metallic ore from that chest that I can take back to town, find another player that is also playing the game that makes the armor I need and pay him to make me the perfectly undamaged awesome chestplate.

You see, part of the reason the community is suffering is because the community has no role past being a collective to form groups with. There is very little interaction past that. All the "gear" is looted in perfect condition form a corpse/chest and needs to interaction with any other tradeskiller.

Shoot, blacksmiths/tailors/leatherworkers can't even repair people's gear either. They can make it but not repair it? Wut?

Sounds like you should play Monster Hunter.

[-Superman-]

Wpvp was dead before we even had flying lol. What killed wpvp was having no reason to go out into the world and actively stay there. Running to a portal for dungeon/raid/bg doesn't really count.

Agreed. Plus, why bother with World PvP when you can get kill after kill in a BG? Instanced PvP killed world PvP.

[Raeln]

Your suspicions would be wrong. All of those quests leading up to the dragonmaw dailies were done solo too. Some of them were not one shot however (I did die on quite a few of them but figured out how to beat them). You were thinking of the one where you free the dragon afaik. As enhancement if I got a lucky WF proc on my two weapons I would almost gib most mobs had double crusader and full pots and elixers too so my dps was brutal for what it should have been.

Ring of blood one was too much for me and the durn one was horrid when I did it at the appropriate level.

There was a handful of 5-man chains before you could unlock the Netherwing dailies. It is entirely possible that they have removed those as prerequisites now though. You could not solo them though - they would melt your face off back in early TBC. I was in quite a few 5-man groups that would wipe to the archers while trying to free the dragon in the keep.

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To a degree I can agree on the smaller place argument about flying - but speaking personally I have no problem with that. I don't really see how the world being bigger (read take longer to get from a to b) is better. Spending longer to get somewhere doesn't make it more fun. I love about 4 miles out of town - I drive in to work with my daughter who goes to school about 5 mins walk from my work. We have a pleasant trip in each day and have a nice laugh about in the car. It's about as fun as a drive to work gets. If I had the option however of having to travel 20 miles into work - or maybe more related to the topic at hand - drive 15mph instead of 30mph, I am pretty sure it wouldn't make it more fun. I like the fact that I live near work and it doesn't take me long.

I drove 47 minutes one way for 13 years.

I now drive 12 minutes one way and have for the last 6 years. I'm loving it. Plus, I'm 2 minutes from my kids' school.

I would love to push a button and have instant transportation or live maybe 75 years in the future where helicopter-like personal transportation is the normal method of travel.

That said - I think the movie 'Cars' sums it up about right about what building an interstate near their town did to Route 66. To some extent, that has happened in World of Warcraft too in some ways.

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1. A cheat in many video and computer games that typically renders the player invulnerable.

Flight is not god mode, and your inaccurate definition has you believing you are correct. Flight is simply the ability to move from point A to point B very quickly. It is important to understand a GAME MECHANIC is not a CHEAT when the game developer is the one who incorporates and allows it.

This is exactly what a flying mount does. At 20 yards, you are immune and invulnerable to almost all PvE threats. At 60 yards, nothing in the game will bother you as you point in the direction you want to go and press Auto-run.

The only danger while flying is your own stupidity if you choose to alt-tab/AFK and hit a mountain or fly out in Fatigue water.

Flying mounts in WoW is as close to godmode as you can get without GM status.

[-Superman-]

This is exactly what a flying mount does.

Ok, one more time, and then I am done with you and your inability to listen to others:

FLIGHT IS NOT AN IN GAME CHEAT, AND THEREFORE IS NOT GODMODE.

If flying were cheating, it never would have been put in the game. If Devs didn't want us flying to high, they would have lowered the ceiling.

Please, do us all a favor and go play another game. If you want to ADD to this game, be my guest, but stop trying to REMOVE things from it.

[gamingmuscle]

Sigh. If we are going to try to inject realism into WoW, I'm just going to toss out there that there isn't a personal mount in the world that would be capable of lifting a plate wearing warrior/paladin/DK that is carrying their two to three sets of gear in their bags. That's a lot of weight.

This isn't about things making sense in the real world, but within the games world. I'm not bothered by the fact a dragon is carrying 3000lbs or so. I can rationalize it if you want. Clearly the gravity is less...or else we wouldn't be able to walk. Or our bags are literally magic holes that remove the weight. But a horse running lets say 30mph and my flying mount is moving at 15...i have a hard time accepting that it would even fly in that case, or that the horse wouldn't be able to "hop" great distances because of it's speed.

On top of all that, I don't think there is a bird in our real world that can fly as comparably fast as a WoW mount can while carrying no load at all.

LOL

If you were to translate wow movement speeds to the real world: fly mounts would move at just under 75 mph if you are a pally and just over 60mph for everyone else. There are birds that can travel faster than that LOL EX: White-throated Needletail has a maximum horizontal air speed of 105mph =P

[Cassidin]

It's turning godmode on. I'm not going to go far enough to say it's cheating - obviously it's not when it's something the devs put in years ago; however, I fail to see how anyone can objectively look at the benefits a flying mount provide, then look objectively at how they have no disadvantages and say that is healthy for a game that hopes to remain relevant for another decade.

The reason you fail to see, is because it is against something you wish to see. I have to admit the reason I fail to see many disadvantages to flying are becuase it goes against something I want to see. "Objective" is a holy grail - it doesn't exist - everyone has an agenda. However look at it this way. What is healthy to the game - is for the game to be a game that many people want to play. The "purpose" of the game is to bring in money to its creators for as long as possible, keeping the players happy enough to keep playing it. With that definition of "healthy for a game" to say that flying is unhealthy for the game is to claim that flying makes people not play the game. Of course there are some that feel that way - you cant please everyone of course. However I do not believe that statistically more people want flying gone than want it to stay.

Every single one of the objections I have heard to flying either are minor or irrelevant (to me). I find it irrelevant that someone can swoop down and grab a mining node without having to fight mobs. I find it irrelevant that someone can escape from being forced to partake in PVP. I find it irrelevant that someone can get to the top of a mountain without having to take longer to do so via windy roads and fighting loads of mobs on the way. All these things are things that I don't care about. I am talking personally of course, I know some people DO care about them and that's all well and fine.

Put simply - flying is something I find fun and adds to my gameplay. Yes I played without flying in vanilla and it was fine - but then I didn't do much past levelling. I have explored more, done more, had more fun, largely due to flying mounts. How can the game being "more fun" be considered a disadvantage? This is MY feeling on it, it clearly isnt yours. The question is: who are their more of? The ones that find flying mounts more fun? or the ones that find adding challenge and slowing down more fun.

An even better question is: Does Blizzard give one flying fig who there are more of?

[Giscoicus]

Agreed. Plus, why bother with World PvP when you can get kill after kill in a BG? Instanced PvP killed world PvP.

This simply isn't true. Instances PvP killed player organized PvP. Spontaneous encounters occurred until everybody was airborn.

Also, Wpvp allows unmitigated use of abilities, no focus on objectives, and full use of items and the environment. BGs are very restrictive.

[-Superman-]

This simply isn't true. Instances PvP killed player organized PvP. Spontaneous encounters occurred until everybody was airborn.

Also, Wpvp allows unmitigated use of abilities, no focus on objectives, and full use of items and the environment. BGs are very restrictive.

And yet World PvP suffers while instanced PvP is always packed. Hmmm...

[Giscoicus]

Ok, one more time, and then I am done with you and your inability to listen to others:

FLIGHT IS NOT AN IN GAME CHEAT, AND THEREFORE IS NOT GODMODE.

If flying were cheating, it never would have been put in the game. If Devs didn't want us flying to high, they would have lowered the ceiling.

Please, do us all a favor and go play another game. If you want to ADD to this game, be my guest, but stop trying to REMOVE things from it.

But cheats exist in many games BECAUSE the devs put them there. Not every cheat is from a Gameshark or Actionreplay, cheat codes have been in many games on purpose. Heck, Godmode exists in a lot of games as a cheat.

Also, this idea of removing things being bad is ridiculous. Not everything is good, and removing a bad element is an improvement. Or would you like to bring back a DOT limit on bosses?

[Wrathonia]

But cheats exist in many games BECAUSE the devs put them there. Not every cheat is from a Gameshark or Actionreplay, cheat codes have been in many games on purpose. Heck, Godmode exists in a lot of games as a cheat.

Also, this idea of removing things being bad is ridiculous. Not everything is good, and removing a bad element is an improvement. Or would you like to bring back a DOT limit on bosses?

How dense can you possibly be?