Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[gamingmuscle]

Remember, skipping content with Flying is bad and therefore Flying must be removed.

However, skipping content by buying a Boost for $60 is perfectly fine and acceptable as long as it's Blizzard selling the Boost and not some Power Leveling company. Because reasons.

The two concepts are different. The boost lets you skip non current content...something blizzard doesn't care much about. It being available to us just illustrates that the current expansion is "over" in blizzards mind. Release it early with WoD pre-order and make a "free" lvl 90 alt to play through mop with to maybe stem off boredom/unsubscribing.

Removing flight is at best the easiest way (for blizzard) to try and force the player base to consume content the way blizzard wants us to. One that we don't benefit from, except those who's personal preference is ground vs air travel. Then they gain blizzard policing their inability to choose personal preference over personal convenience.

[Rankin]

I don't agree. I see the whole game as one big ride.

That's because you're intentionally being difficult with the analogy just so you can say it doesn't make sense.

You can clearly delineate between getting to content and doing content. That's the "line" leading to the "ride".

Removing flight just makes the lines longer while not making things better.

[Infernix]

The two concepts are different. The boost lets you skip non current content...something blizzard doesn't care much about. It being available to us just illustrates that the current expansion is "over" in blizzards mind. Release it early with WoD pre-order and make a "free" lvl 90 alt to play through mop with to maybe stem off boredom/unsubscribing.

Removing flight is at best the easiest way (for blizzard) to try and force the player base to consume content the way blizzard wants us to. One that we don't benefit from, except those who's personal preference is ground vs air travel. Then they gain blizzard policing their inability to choose personal preference over personal convenience.

It's funny that they don't care about non-current content, but force you to pay for it anyways.

Hell, they make you pay for the old content so that you can then turn around and pay for the current content. Then you can turn around and pay even more to skip the old content that they just forced you to buy so you can skip right to the current content. I'm surprised they don't charge you whenever you log off from the game, at this point.

But, Flying is bad according to the developers because you can skip the trivial boring and frustrating content that the developers made trivial, boring and frustrating.

Blizzard Logic

[gamingmuscle]

I don't agree. I see the whole game as one big ride.

Theme park/arcade seem to be a better analogy than the entire game being a single big ride. Full of small rides, but it's not a single continuous one. It starts, stops...lets you go from disconnected types of play within it. Like I can Queue for LFR...and then do a pet battle, then hit the AH buy mats and make some armor or whatever. The fact you are choosing what and where to go within the game, kind of breaks the one big ride analogy. Unless I am missing something.

[Nayaga]

The two concepts are different. The boost lets you skip non current content...something blizzard doesn't care much about. It being available to us just illustrates that the current expansion is "over" in blizzards mind. Release it early with WoD pre-order and make a "free" lvl 90 alt to play through mop with to maybe stem off boredom/unsubscribing.

Removing flight is at best the easiest way (for blizzard) to try and force the player base to consume content the way blizzard wants us to. One that we don't benefit from, except those who's personal preference is ground vs air travel. Then they gain blizzard policing their inability to choose personal preference over personal convenience.

They might be different but the both skip content. Other things that skip content are flight taxis and hearthstones. Both make it so you don't have to ground travel through everything.

[gamingmuscle]

That's because you're intentionally being difficult with the analogy just so you can say it doesn't make sense.

You can clearly delineate between getting to content and doing content. That's the "line" leading to the "ride".

Removing flight just makes the lines longer while not making things better.

I think he considers logging in as getting on the ride...and everything else is just part of it. The problem is a ride is a directed experience. You are guided from A to B. It doesn't need to be a single path experience, but a definite path. WoW as a entire thing, doesn't defined path that guides you from A to B that encompasses the entire game. It has many many smaller paths within it...so theme park works very well.

[Osmeric]

There's another reason to disable flying in WoD: travel using flight points is a gold sink. This is especially relevant if they deemphasize daily quests, which are a big gold source.

[quras]

I don't agree. I see the whole game as one big ride.

SNIP...

Oh this matter it doesn't matter if you agree or not.

wow is a theme park game and it is called that for the very reason I mentioned. You might not agree and I guess thats fine but it is what it is: A theme park.

You get into the theme park. you go places to ride rides, get some enjoyment out of that. There are multiple smaller rides and places to stop off at be it a gift shop or a place to eat. Each it's own little ride but not the real reason you came to the theme park.

You came to the theme park to have fun and get some enjoyment on the "rides"

Traveling from "A" to "B" is not the ride that brought you to the game but like the monorail at Disney, it's fun enough, gets you around the park rather quickly and efficiently but not why you are there. Similar to flying. It's not why you are there but damn it's handy. Especially when you have spent countless hours farming for cooler versions or spent extra cash on a better looking model.


In this case though it seems blizzard wants to make sure there is fun out there but also wants to make sure you don't consume it at your pace but theirs. blizzard wants to make sure there are interesting rides but also wants to make sure they have very long lines getting to those rides and wants to waste what little "time' you have in the theme park so you will pay longer and stay longer.

It's all about limiting content consumption and flying was their scapegoat to hit everyone with TI style content.

It's a move that should not be supported at max level. 10 levels on the ground is plenty.

[Destruktion]

Theme park/arcade seem to be a better analogy than the entire game being a single big ride. Full of small rides, but it's not a single continuous one. It starts, stops...lets you go from disconnected types of play within it. Like I can Queue for LFR...and then do a pet battle, then hit the AH buy mats and make some armor or whatever. The fact you are choosing what and where to go within the game, kind of breaks the one big ride analogy. Unless I am missing something.

I'm not obligated to accept an analogy as accurate or not. An analogy is just a tool used to get people to see the user's line of thinking. I already get the line of thinking that Nayaga and Quras and others see the activity as the ride and the means to get to that activity as the line.

I'm not here for the individual activities, I'm here for the entire experience. That is why I can't agree with the accuracy of the analogy.

In this case though it seems blizzard wants to make sure there is fun out there but also wants to make sure you don't consume it. blizzard wants to make sure there are interesting rides but also wants to make sure they have very long lines getting to those rides and wants to waste what little "time' you have in the theme park so you will pay longer and stay longer.

It's all about limiting content consumption and flying was their scapegoat to hit everyone with TI style content.

It's a move that should not be supported.

You have yet to make a good case for why that should not be supported. Strawmen don't count.

[gamingmuscle]

They might be different but the both skip content. Other things that skip content are flight taxis and hearthstones. Both make it so you don't have to ground travel through everything.

Ok?

My understanding Blizzard considers flight bad because it lets us avoid certain aspects when doing the content. That little narrative Bashoik(sp?) gave. While I agree with them that flight does allow that, and it could be consider a problem of sorts. I don't think flight removal makes the most sense in this situation....and I certainly don't think we benefit from it.

[quras]

SNIP...
You have yet to make a good case for why that should not be supported. Strawmen don't count.
[/FONT]

Then you have failed to really read any posts I have made in the multiple threads on the subject.

SNIP...

I'm not here for the individual activities, I'm here for the entire experience. That is why I can't agree with the accuracy of the analogy.
SNIP...

And thats fine but you cannot change the nature of the game and how it is setup just cause you don't agree or want to see it differently.

Pretty much every gamer is there for the entire experience of the theme park game but we also know that after years and years of going to this theme park we know the better parts. Sure, the park is nice and it has a good food and places to see but it does not trump the actual rides that are out there.

[gamingmuscle]

I'm not obligated to accept an analogy as accurate or not. An analogy is just a tool used to get people to see the user's line of thinking. I already get the line of thinking that Nayaga and Quras and others see the activity as the ride and the means to get to that activity as the line.

I'm not here for the individual activities, I'm here for the entire experience. That is why I can't agree with the accuracy of the analogy.

An analogy that isn't accurate/fitting will fail to get others to see your point. You being for the entire experience doesn't do anything to make the theme park analogy inappropriate.

[Destruktion]

Then you have failed to really read any posts I have made in the multiple threads on the subject.

I haven't. I get the gist of what you've said over these threads. You're the one who thinks Blizzard should make flying better and showcase it so that it stands out from other MMOs, right?
Well THAT'S something I can agree with. But I haven't really seen much about how Blizzard SHOULD go about doing this, and furthermore what can be done to alleviate their concerns about how flying affects open-world content.

And thats fine but you cannot change the nature of the game and how it is setup just cause you don't agree or want to see it differently.

Pretty much every gamer is there for the entire experience of the theme park game but we also know that after years and years of going to this theme park we know the better parts. Sure, the park is nice and it has a good food and places to see but it does not trump the actual rides that are out there.

I've let this analogy business distract me. Travel time isn't really the reason for this change in the first place! It's not about making people wait in lines, it's about how flying fundamentally alters how that content is completed i.e. how the RIDES THEMSELVES are altered.

An analogy that isn't accurate/fitting will fail to get others to see your point. You being for the entire experience doesn't do anything to make the theme park analogy inappropriate.

If that's the case, then fair enough. I'll agree that Quras et. al. see the game as a theme park and travel time to objectives as a line, and they don't want to wait in line longer than they should have to.

[quras]

I haven't. I get the gist of what you've said over these threads. You're the one who thinks Blizzard should make flying better and showcase it so that it stands out from other MMOs, right?
Well THAT'S something I can agree with. But I haven't really seen much about how Blizzard SHOULD go about doing this, and furthermore what can be done to alleviate their concerns about how flying affects open-world content.

Then you are fairly new to the argument as I have made posts to that nature. I have made posts on what could be added to the world to hinder quest bombing and how I would expand flying not removing it. I of course do not go into any major detail cause thats not my job to give out free information in full detail. You want to see some of my ideas. Check some of my older posts.

Hell, I could have lived with TI content in half of continent and normal flying at max level in the other half but even blizzard isn't creative enough to do that it seems.

I've let this analogy business distract me.

Sure it did. It distracted you with a hard truth about removing flying in a theme park game. One you cannot refute other than to say, "I just don't see it that way." Fact is, wow is a theme park game. It's the way it was built and currently stays. No amount of warped vision or obtuse line of thinking will change that.

Travel time isn't really the reason for this change in the first place! It's not about making people wait in lines, it's about how flying fundamentally alters how that content is completed i.e. how the RIDES THEMSELVES are altered.

It's all about making flying at max level a scapegoat so they can push forth TI-style content and limit the game play time of every single wow gamer that steps foot in the theme park. It's equivalent to making the lines longer at your local theme park. A change that should not be supported when the goal is to get in the park and ride the rides you find enjoyable.

At max level it's funny that no part I found enjoyable was altered because I could fly. Hell, it was more enjoyable after 10 level of pacing on the ground but you are trying to argue something that is subjective to the gamer. A debate neither of us can win.

If that's the case, then fair enough. I'll agree that Quras et. al. see the game as a theme park and travel time to objectives as a line, and they don't want to wait in line longer than they should have to.

To be honest I don't need to you agree. I'm open minded enough to see that is what this game is. That is what this game is based on and why in every mention of wow it is referred to at some point as a theme park game VS say a sand box game.

I get blizzard wants to keep you paying longer, keep you in the theme park longer and make you, "come back again another day" just so you keep paying but flying at max level to add more TI content is not something I can support.

Flying has been in game for every expansion of wow. Flying is not some side feature at this point and is a major seller in the cash shop and a major reason for many to kill time in game farming flying mounts. Claiming, "Well use them in old content then" is just an excuse for weaker minded to rationalize blizzard as not making another flawed move in design and development. Which sadly they are but removing flying at max level in content they want gamers to pay more for all so they can slow down content consumption.

It's a design move I cannot support and it deserves as much negativity as any one player (or a bunch) can spread.

[Nayaga]

But I haven't really seen much about how Blizzard SHOULD go about doing this, and furthermore what can be done to alleviate their concerns about how flying affects open-world content.

I think almost everyone agrees that no flight makes sense while leveling so that open-world content is experienced how Blizzard intends it. IMO no-flying should continue until the gamer has completed all quests for all WoD before getting a difficult and time consuming quest to get flight. At this point, the only thing left is what Blizzard is calling "max-level" content. In the past, "max level" content meant activities like TI. If it is like TI, I want my flying back, for me and many others TI was worthless.

[Destruktion]

Then you are fairly new to the argument as I have made posts to that nature. I have made posts on what could be added to the world to hinder quest bombing and how I would expand flying not removing it. I of course do not go into any major detail cause thats not my job to give out free information in full detail. You want to see some of my ideas. Check some of my older posts.

Hell, I could have lived with TI content in half of continent and normal flying at max level in the other half but even blizzard isn't creative enough to do that it seems.

That's of no use to me, or anyone really. Seemingly half-hearted suggestions and ideas are not going to get any sway. If you're interested in talking details about how an alternative to no flying in current content could work, I'm interested. I'm not interested in the mere idea of an alternative.

Sure it did. It distracted you with a hard truth about removing flying in a theme park game. One you cannot refute other than to say, "I just don't see it that way." Fact is, wow is a theme park game. It's the way it was built and currently stays. No amount of warped vision or obtuse line of thinking will change that.

The analogy fails because Blizzard's reason for the change is nothing to do with travel time to a quest objective area, it's about how the quest objective itself is completed.

It's all about making flying at max level a scapegoat so they can push forth TI-style content and limit the game play time of every single wow gamer that steps foot in the theme park. It's equivalent to making the lines longer at your local theme park. A change that should not be supported when the goal is to get in the park and ride the rides you find enjoyable.

At max level it's funny that no part I found enjoyable was altered because I could fly. Hell, it was more enjoyable after 10 level of pacing on the ground but you are trying to argue something that is subjective to the gamer. A debate neither of us can win.

It's not the lines that are being altered primarily, it's the rides themselves. That's the point.

I think almost everyone agrees that no flight makes sense while leveling so that open-world content is experienced how Blizzard intends it. IMO no-flying should continue until the gamer has completed all quests for all WoD before getting a difficult and time consuming quest to get flight. At this point, the only thing left is what Blizzard is calling "max-level" content. In the past, "max level" content meant activities like TI. If it is like TI, I want my flying back, for me and many others TI was worthless.

Well I'm hoping all of WoD max-level content will not be TI-style, because that's not really my thing. They can throw in the best parts of it for sure, but it's the max-level quest chains I'm looking forward to.

[Nayaga]

That's of no use to me, or anyone really. Seemingly half-hearted suggestions and ideas are not going to get any sway. If you're interested in talking details about how an alternative to no flying in current content could work, I'm interested. I'm not interested in the mere idea of an alternative.



The analogy fails because Blizzard's reason for the change is nothing to do with travel time to a quest objective area, it's about how the quest objective itself is completed.



It's not the lines that are being altered primarily, it's the rides themselves. That's the point.



Well I'm hoping all of WoD max-level content will not be TI-style, because that's not really my thing. They can throw in the best parts of it for sure, but it's the max-level quest chains I'm looking forward to.

Quest chains do reach an end, even if they are made for level 100. After these quest chains, I want flying back. That is more than enough for Blizzard to test out peoples opinion on no fly content.

[blackblade]

Ok?

My understanding Blizzard considers flight bad because it lets us avoid certain aspects when doing the content. That little narrative Bashoik(sp?) gave. While I agree with them that flight does allow that, and it could be consider a problem of sorts. I don't think flight removal makes the most sense in this situation....and I certainly don't think we benefit from it.

I think this is solved by making zones actually take advantage of flight. Currently, all the zones in the game are sprawled across very large, flat areas. Nowhere in the game, from a leveling content perspective, really requires a flying mount. (obviously exceptions exist. but they're not the rule)

If they had a zone that was similar to Vortex Pinnacle in design (Large, floorless area, with floating structures scattered about) that required you to fly from platform to platform, That would create a compelling reason to have a flying mount. Alternatively an area littered with "Free flying" areas and no-fly zones forcing you to land in dalaran-esque landing areas and go by ground from there out would work as well.

Think Skyward Sword. You get a bird to freely fly a fairly empty overworld filled with floating continents and little secrets. The flight in WoW is significantly more controllable (where skyward sword forces you to fly like an actual bird) allowing you to turn on the spot and hover, but if they gave ample incentive to fly from A->B, make you feel vulnerable while doing so, and give you a reason to not swoop on top of a quest target kill it, and swoop away (Like I dunno, put them indoors?) you'd have a compelling flying-compatible zone.

They could do other things, like put mining nodes in the sky, put herb nodes in the sky, and let anyone (instead of just druids) harvest them without getting off your mount. but the engine dosen't handle flying combat very well (yet, anyway) and players can't currently fight back while mounted (which could easily be fixed.)

The arguments against this is that the current method of building a new continent is cheap in comparison. they start with what is effectively a flat plane, sclupt it, paint it with a texture brush, and then populate it with doodads. Building a zone entirely of buildings would likely be significantly more expensive as each building would need a model and some significantly more specific textures (and a good chunk of them would need to be made to prevent things from feeling same-y.

[Sweetpeaz]

Quest chains do reach an end, even if they are made for level 100. After these quest chains, I want flying back. That is more than enough for Blizzard to test out peoples opinion on no fly content.

Wait until you chain quest is broken up into sections, that will be released every few weeks like TotC was.

...just to make it last a little longer.

Sooner or later people will figure out, that this is only about the extension of content and it will piss them off.

[Nayaga]

Wait until you chain quest is broken up into sections, that will be released every few weeks like TotC was.

...just to make it last a little longer.

Sooner or later people will figure out, that this is only about the extension of content and it will piss them off.

Very possible. Blizzard does want to slow our content consumption down so they don't run into the huge content droughts like we have now.