Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Nurvus]

@Pengalor
That's amazing...

First, Flying also has "walls" sometimes, such as those huge spires in Storm Peaks. You essentially had "air roads" in Storm Peaks (but not in Icecrown).
Second, why the hell is difficult terrain "annoying"?
Players nowadays are so spoon-fed they look at everything that isn't near instant as "annoying".

Doesn't it bother you that the most imposing mountain becomes trivial the moment you can fly?
Is everything about the game converted into time to you? Is WoW a part-time?
Geez...

- - - Updated - - -

What max level mobs? The 'level 100' mobs that are still just basic quest mobs that provide no challenge or interest? If the world was full of tough elites or something you might have a point but even those max level mobs will be complete fodder once you get to max level. Hell, people are killing some of the level 100 elites in FFR already at level 92 (where beta is capped), you think they're going to be even remotely a challenge at 100? Any new areas implemented can have flight restrictions just as TI and IoT did. The model they had for Pandaria worked perfectly, not sure why they feel the need to change it.

It's the other way around.
The basic quest mobs that provide no challenge or interest are part of the immersion, challenge and economy.

Having your desired objectives barred by inconveniences is an important part of the game, and helps Blizzard DEFINE the reward.
Blizzard could place your objective in the middle of a desert - instead you are meant to HAVE to deal with inconveniences - be it a bunch of undesirable mobs or a mountain you must go around or climb in a lengthy spiral.

If you can avoid any and all inconveniences THEN Blizzard is forced to NERF the rewards, which makes the game feel even MORE boring and repetitive.
You're asking for the very thing that spoils your enjoyment of the game. But hey, what do I know?

I completely agree that Blizzard should massively buff the difficulty of mobs in the whole world - and buff their drops as well - specially Elites and Rares.
And I'm not talking about more hp or more damage. I'm talking about giving them a healthy dose of Timeless Isle'y abilities, on top of defensive cooldowns, interrupts, CC and healing.

That's something players should definitely provide feedback and insist on.

[rda]

@Pengalor
That's amazing...

First, Flying also has "walls" sometimes, such as those huge spires in Storm Peaks. You essentially had "air roads" in Storm Peaks (but not in Icecrown).
Second, why the hell is difficult terrain "annoying"?
Players nowadays are so spoon-fed they look at everything that isn't near instant as "annoying".

Doesn't it bother you that the most imposing mountain becomes trivial the moment you can fly?
Is everything about the game converted into time to you? Is WoW a part-time?
Geez...

Using the same logic, let's also remove hearthstones and graveyards.

Hey, why is it that you should only clear way in a difficult cavern when going into it, you should have to kill the mobs in that cavern again on your way out. And why on earth can you res on a graveyard - what, is it too much work for you to go to where your corpse is and then fight your way out of that place? Skipping is bad, should remove hearthstones and graveyards.

You see? This quickly goes nowhere. "Skipping is bad" isn't some kind of a magic argument that trumps everything else, arguments for convenience have their place. And it is not at all clear that not being able to fly is the sweet spot, to the contrary, many would argue that the current state is way better.

[Nurvus]

Using the same logic, let's also remove hearthstones and graveyards.

I have no issues with this.
Although, rezzing in the graveyard is mostly a safeguard against places you can't get out of, and gives you a nasty penalty.
So perhaps just remove or apply a similar penalty to Hearthstone. I'm down for it.

So yeah, this goes somewhere.

[rda]

I have no issues with this.
Although, rezzing in the graveyard is mostly a safeguard against places you can't get out of, and gives you a nasty penalty.
So perhaps just remove or apply a similar penalty to Hearthstone. I'm down for it.

So yeah, this goes somewhere.

Well, the place where this goes is called "game for 5,000 guys who like going uphill all the time". There is a reason WoW had hearthstones and graveyards from the beginning, and there is a reason they added flying. That reason is: people like and value things like that. Yes, convenience has value. More value than being hardcore about repetitive things, apparently.

[Pengalor]

I have no issues with this.
Although, rezzing in the graveyard is mostly a safeguard against places you can't get out of, and gives you a nasty penalty.
So perhaps just remove or apply a similar penalty to Hearthstone. I'm down for it.

So yeah, this goes somewhere.

Man, I'm glad I read that response before replying to your other one. We clearly have nothing to talk about if you think that the developer's desire to make something frustrating and annoying comes before the player have fun. It's one thing if a dungeon or raid boss is hard, that's part of the game mechanics. Trying to get up a hill isn't, it's just a needless obstacle that adds nothing of value to the gameplay experience. I suppose you're in favor of putting the goal of every quest after its own hedge maze. Or let's make it like some of the Korean MMOs and remove almost all quests completely and make it so you have to grind on the same group of mobs for 3 days to get a level. After all, it's just an inconvenience!

[Deleted]

I have no issues with this.
Although, rezzing in the graveyard is mostly a safeguard against places you can't get out of, and gives you a nasty penalty.
So perhaps just remove or apply a similar penalty to Hearthstone. I'm down for it.

So yeah, this goes somewhere.

That somewhere is a punishing game which discourages you from being out there in the world doing things because the penalties take away too much of your game time.

It's nothing but lazy game development, which relies on artificially gating and stretching content in order to hide the fact that there is so little of it. If removing flying is just their way of testing the waters, they should not be encouraged into regressing further with every expansion, or they stand to lose more and more of their player base. The last two xpacs are proof that decisions which were flagged as bad design resulted in subscription losses.

Something I found amusing was this poll posted here, on MMO-C, in January 2013, long before Blizzard announced any plans regarding flying in WoD. At that point in time, when no-flying had zero ties with fanboism, roughly 73% of respondents didn't want flying removed. The poll actually had more respondents than the many WoD-related polls, and while the sample was still small (1700-ish people), it was not completely insignificant for this community in particular.

I find it remarkable that when the proposal came from a regular player, people bent over backwards to say it was a horrible idea, that it would piss off the playerbase, etc., along with giving pretty much the same arguments we are giving today. However, once Blizzard announced its intentions for WoD, many valiant white knights came out of the woodwork and those who maintained their position suddenly became "the vocal minority."

EDIT: added a screenshot of the numbers as I found them. Feel free to subtract my vote.

[Deleted]

It's nothing but lazy game development, which relies on artificially gating and stretching content in order to hide the fact that there is so little of it.

Or they have come to the conclusion that flying does not fit their current design philosophy. Exploring by climbing for example is totally different than just flying on top of the mountain. Yeah, maybe you only raid or pvp at max level. But many people want to quest, find rares and hidden treasures etc.

Cata leveling was the worst of all time and guess what, it was because of flying! (See, I can make my opinions facts too like so many of the pro-flyers in this thread)

[Pengalor]

Or they have come to the conclusion that flying does not fit their current design philosophy. Exploring by climbing for example is totally different than just flying on top of the mountain. Yeah, maybe you only raid or pvp at max level. But many people want to quest, find rares and hidden treasures etc.

Cata leveling was the worst of all time and guess what, it was because of flying! (See, I can make my opinions facts too like so many of the pro-flyers in this thread)

Except exploring by climbing is incredibly clunky in this game, as are jumping puzzles. Forcing people to be grounded also means that every 'hidden' place needs to have an obvious and visible path or people won't be able to find/get to it, making it not so hidden. I love to explore (hell, I was one of the first on my server to have some of the Isle of Thunder achievements because a friend and I spent a day sneaking our way into unopened areas) and I have almost every single rare and drop from mainland Pandaria but I know that flying has its place and it needs to be there for multiple reasons.

Edit: As for your point about Cata, it's still just an opinion. Also, Hess happens to be right. I'm in the beta, I completed FFR in a few hours of gametime, and that was dealing with crashes, bugs, incredibly slow spawn timers on a couple of quests, and screwing around with exploring. There is a serious lack of content in FFR and I probably spent more time running around then I did actually doing quests.

[Maneo]

1. This may be true the first few times you visit na area by flight.
However, point 6 (convenience/time) gives away your true colors.
Exploration and immersion do NOT belong to the same mindset behind convenience/time.
The fact you mention it - and you mention it at the end of the list - shows that every other reason in this is mostly just to fill the list.
2. I completely agree that grounding flying mounts makes no sense.
I'll even go as far as saying that magically restricting flight in zones is stupid as well. Blizzard should instead make Flying balanced with other travel means.
3. Storm Peaks and Icecrown weren't zones designed around flying. They simply had Flying as a "requirement" to access those zones' content, but were otherwise mostly filled with interior content (caves, burial grounds, etc) and vehicle-based quests (bear/dragon mounted quests, etc).
4. I too enjoy flying mounts, but they don't need to be stupid overpowered comparing to every other means of travel.
5. I agree Flying Mounts shouldn't be turned into Ground Mounts in disguise - but they need to be balanced properly, because currently it's a joke.
6. Convenience merely masks underwhelming content. The easier and faster the objectives are to complete, the less important the rewards feel. That aspect of flying mounts is 100% NEGATIVE.
7. Funny, but the Ground Mounts have been in the game even longer and it doesn't seem to bother you the fact that Flying Mounts make Ground Mounts 100% useless.

As long as Flying Mounts work the way they do now, Blizzard will ALWAYS have their hands tied in terms of designing meaningful content that doesn't feel extremely stupid.
Magically no-flight áreas are stupid.
Allowing flight lets players rush content and skip everything they can.

But I have a small short-term solution to a few problems brought by flight:Add the concept of Quest-Specific Bonus Objectives
Example: Quest requires you to pick 10 daisies in a field with flowery ogres.
Bonus Objective of that quest requires you to fight 5 ogres to submission so they accept you as their flower god.
This makes flying less "useful" because it's worth staying on the ground.

Thank you baby Jesus someone with a intelligent argument. Mr. Sith Hamster and the rest of you should take notes.

1. I totally agree although i have to admit in MoP I did not find every litttle interesting nook until after many many fly through...

2. Again I completely agree

3. Well yes and no, if you use that bar as your measuring stick all the flying zones were that way. Cept maybe Netherwing. You always have to land to do your quests Blizz has never incorporated flying into the questing experience.

4. I can actually agree with this, the thing is though does it really matter at max level at the rate Blizz delivers content?

5. I could also agree with this adding a incentive to using your ground mount.

6. Convenience merely masks underwhelming content, this one here is a good one and it will probably blow your mind to say that I agree with you. Here is the problem though at the rate Blizz releases content it is all underwhelming after being max level for a month at most. Again if Blizzard released content at a faster rate this wouldn't be a issue.

7. Ok this is one I disagree with you on. Personally when I was playing I still used my ground mount (spectral tiger cause it is bad ass), when farming leather because it was easier, but more importantly those mobs went from providing "No threat reward, or challenge" to at least offer a small reward.

As long as Flying Mounts work the way they do now, Blizzard will ALWAYS have their hands tied in terms of designing meaningful content that doesn't feel extremely stupid.

You had this 8th point there but didn't number it.

8. Ok I disagree with this one, basically your saying all the content at max level (and during leveling in Cata was stupid), using MoP as a example Operation Shield Wall and Battlefield barrens were pretty damn good and had people out and about in the world.

As far for you idea I can see that and would actually support that.

Personally I have said how to do it would be this. Example the end quest is you have to kill Lord Badass and yes with lazy quest design people will just fly in kill lord bad ass and leave. Now lets say instead of just getting a quest to kill said Badass the quest also requires you to kill X number of his flunkies (granted this is also poor quest design). If that doesn't work lets say the quest works in phases you get a quest to kill x number of those flunkies, that once complete gives you the quest to kill bad ass, Or my favorite link a good chunk of the mobs with LordBadass, so when he is attacked about 10 of his guys come at ya..

[Nayaga]

"could we design a world with no affliction warlocks that our players would enjoy? We think so."

lol!
..............

[Pengalor]

Thank you baby Jesus someone with a intelligent argument. Mr. Sith Hamster and the rest of you should take notes.

/facepalm

Just because you don't agree with them does not make the arguments less intelligent.

Personally I have said how to do it would be this. Example the end quest is you have to kill Lord Badass and yes with lazy quest design people will just fly in kill lord bad ass and leave. Now lets say instead of just getting a quest to kill said Badass the quest also requires you to kill X number of his flunkies (granted this is also poor quest design). If that doesn't work lets say the quest works in phases you get a quest to kill x number of those flunkies, that once complete gives you the quest to kill bad ass, Or my favorite link a good chunk of the mobs with LordBadass, so when he is attacked about 10 of his guys come at ya..

Quests are already like this in WoD. Seriously, I've been playing it, I know. So now you're perfectly happy with flying at max level, right? (doubt it)

[Maneo]

Everyone uses that same argument. Here's why it makes no sense:
1 - You don't just skip low level mobs. You also skip MAX LEVEL mobs.
So flying is not a problem while leveling - it's a problem at all levels.
2 - No one had a problem with no flight during Vanilla.
Players weren't bored out of their minds.
3 - No one has a problem with no flight while leveling. Why does it feel so unacceptable to continue without flight at max level? Strange, huh?

Still, here's a better idea:
Allow Flying ALWAYS from level 60 onwards, removing all stupid magical "no-flying" restrictions from the open world, BUT make flying balanced & add proper (non-stupid) anti-flight mechanics to open world content, such as weighted nets, axe throwers, etc (again, not stupid dismounts).

I want Flying to STAY in the game! But it's COMPLETELY broken atm.

So I'm willing to give WoD a try and check how it feels to be in Vanilla all over again, and HOPEFULLY when Flying returns (and I expect it to return), it'll be balanced.

1. Mobs are only skipped if they are unchallenging, or unrewarding aka not fun.

2. This is true, because the world was fresh and new and loaded with content. Leveling took some time, hell I played for quite awhile before I reached max level in vanilla .. and I was one of the first chunk on my server to make it. Currently the world isn't fresh (its really all the same thing with a better or different window dressing)

3. No one has a problem w/out flight while leveling cause the content is new fresh, exciting, problem is at the rate Blizz releases content that isn't the case for Max level play.

[Nayaga]

It won't be hard it won't be dangerous this is WoW it never has been never will be ... only instanced content will you have mobs that are challenging or rewarding ...

So please get this "Dangerous World" shit off your talking points cause it isn't going to happen... they are the same mobs they have always been ... just now with more dismount mechanics.
..

I've leveled up to level 92 in Beta, running thru the starting zone is already not dangerous. Image what it will be like at level 100 and geared.

[Deleted]

Actually, I only raided in BC and Wrath. That's also when I did most of my PvP (mostly BGs in BC, BGs + arenas + WG in Wrath). I think in Cata I tried to do some Tol'Barad, but found it boring and the win-trading at the beginning was a turn-off.

In MoP I was subbed twice (second time rerolled fully on EU to play with friends). I did all the quests as usual, explored the areas they introduced between the first and second time I played, and for the rest did mostly pet battles. I also dabbled in Archaeology, although not quite as much as I did in Cataclysm.

So when I say I don't want flying removed, I'm talking from the point of view of someone who flies all over the world to hunt various pets. When I rerolled, all the cool stuff I'd been gathering since late Vanilla stayed on my US account, and as a mount and pet collector, that hurt (A LOT, actually). So I spent most of my time trying to get some of my old pets back, along with capturing new pets.

The thought of using winding FPs and riding on my ground mount between Arch digs and pet spawn points is making me not want to play. There was already a lot of travel involved in these activities, but now it will take longer and make it harder for me to accomplish what I want within a given play session.

As for Cata leveling, it might well have been the worst because of flying, but no one here is arguing that flying should be enabled at level 90. We're talking about flying at 100, when all the leveling content has already been done on foot and when activities start diverging based on interests. I'm more than okay with not being able to fly while leveling because travel at that point is sort of "on rails": you hop from hub to hub and you have quests to do on the way. Also, you're seeing everything for the first time, some things are indeed dangerous, and there are things to explore and discover.

If you're like me and do all the new quests, you end up with very few unturned stones by the time you're done with the Loremaster and Explorer achievements. After that, I'd rather work on secondary professions and side interests, and the lack of flying, which was acceptable while questing, becomes a drag.

[Maneo]

/facepalm

Just because you don't agree with them does not make the arguments less intelligent.



Quests are already like this in WoD. Seriously, I've been playing it, I know. So now you're perfectly happy with flying at max level, right? (doubt it)

Have you read their arguements seriously?

Quests have been like that since Cata honestly. And yes I have been content with flight at max level (happy is a bit of a overstatement).

[Pengalor]

I've leveled up to level 92 in Beta, running thru the starting zone is already not dangerous. Image what it will be like al level 100 and geared.

Same. Hell, Frostfire Ridge is almost completely empty and I never died there except from fall damage once. Even if I got dismounted, I disengaged away, Feign Death, boom, no danger. Then I just Camo'd out of there. If Blizzard cared about a "dangerous world" they wouldn't have stealth mechanics break the game. Flat-out I guarantee you that the reason they are taking it out is to see if it recuperates subs. Ironically, they are trying to do the same thing that every other company has done since WoW became popular: they're trying to copy early WoW. They think by replicating it they will regain their success and numbers. It's not going to happen. All they are going to do is push away the majority that are still here.

[Nayaga]

During these BETA days, I haven't been dazed even once.

I have been dazed many times. I call BS. Mobs drop like flies and drop nothing of value.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, I only raided in BC and Wrath. That's also when I did most of my PvP (mostly BGs in BC, BGs + arenas + WG in Wrath). I think in Cata I tried to do some Tol'Barad, but found it boring and the win-trading at the beginning was a turn-off.

In MoP I was subbed twice (second time rerolled fully on EU to play with friends). I did all the quests as usual, explored the areas they introduced between the first and second time I played, and for the rest did mostly pet battles. I also dabbled in Archaeology, although not quite as much as I did in Cataclysm.

So when I say I don't want flying removed, I'm talking from the point of view of someone who flies all over the world to hunt various pets. When I rerolled, all the cool stuff I'd been gathering since late Vanilla stayed on my US account, and as a mount and pet collector, that hurt (A LOT, actually). So I spent most of my time trying to get some of my old pets back, along with capturing new pets.

The thought of using winding FPs and riding on my ground mount between Arch digs and pet spawn points is making me not want to play. There was already a lot of travel involved in these activities, but now it will take longer and make it harder for me to accomplish what I want within a given play session.

As for Cata leveling, it might well have been the worst because of flying, but no one here is arguing that flying should be enabled at level 90. We're talking about flying at 100, when all the leveling content has already been done on foot and when activities start diverging based on interests. I'm more than okay with not being able to fly while leveling because travel at that point is sort of "on rails": you hop from hub to hub and you have quests to do on the way. Also, you're seeing everything for the first time, some things are indeed dangerous, and there are things to explore and discover.

If you're like me and do all the new quests, you end up with very few unturned stones by the time you're done with the Loremaster and Explorer achievements. After that, I'd rather work on secondary professions and side interests, and the lack of flying, which was acceptable while questing, becomes a drag.

I've brought these points up many times, different people enjoy different aspects of the game. Flying greatly improves game play for many of us.

[Maneo]

Except exploring by climbing is incredibly clunky in this game, as are jumping puzzles. Forcing people to be grounded also means that every 'hidden' place needs to have an obvious and visible path or people won't be able to find/get to it, making it not so hidden. I love to explore (hell, I was one of the first on my server to have some of the Isle of Thunder achievements because a friend and I spent a day sneaking our way into unopened areas) and I have almost every single rare and drop from mainland Pandaria but I know that flying has its place and it needs to be there for multiple reasons.

Edit: As for your point about Cata, it's still just an opinion. Also, Hess happens to be right. I'm in the beta, I completed FFR in a few hours of gametime, and that was dealing with crashes, bugs, incredibly slow spawn timers on a couple of quests, and screwing around with exploring. There is a serious lack of content in FFR and I probably spent more time running around then I did actually doing quests.

Yah personally I enjoy climbing and jumping puzzles .. problem is WoW isn't made for it. Can any of you anti flight people say that the platforming in TI or IoT was fun... it was annoying and nobody I know ever did it more then once.

Wildstar on the other hand is designed for jumping and such... and honestly it is a great deal of fun. Speaking of Wildstar my wife just caught up to me so I am off to play that game. I honestly think that is where all the creative devs from WoW went at this point..

[Pengalor]

Yah personally I enjoy climbing and jumping puzzles .. problem is WoW isn't made for it. Can any of you anti flight people say that the platforming in TI or IoT was fun... it was annoying and nobody I know ever did it more then once.

Wildstar on the other hand is designed for jumping and such... and honestly it is a great deal of fun.

Indeed. I loved the jumping puzzles in GW2. I also tend to spend a lot of time trying to jump around and break the games I play, just seeing where I can explore and where I can get to. It's one of my favorite things to do to pass the time in games when I get tired of the main story or quests or whatnot. However, with WoW it's ok until you start adding hills and mountains (not to mention all the invisible walls they like to use). I mean, the TI stuff was doable but it wasn't particularly enjoyable (and things like the stupid rope bridge thing, ugh).

[urasim]

I've leveled up to level 92 in Beta, running thru the starting zone is already not dangerous. Image what it will be like at level 100 and geared.

I ran through the level 100 areas in Frostfire Ridge, and didn't get dazed or killed once in beta. I came close to dying, though. I even killed a few of them to see if I could. Nothing is going to be dangerous about this expansion. Blizzard loves to cater to casuals, and I doubt this will ever change.