[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Endus]

Something isn't bad faith just because they point out your ignorance. You were the one to claim the only reason I wanted them to use a second actor was because she would be taller when the whole point was the cgi wasn't good looking.

Her height was the only reason you gave.

There certainly is a difference between brown and grey haired white nick fury and Sam Jackson. I have always said I like when they make the actors look like the characters they portray. Someone that doesn't think that shouldn't use the difference as an argument why they can't be the same character especially when we already know Marvel has used actors of different race/gender/haircolor/whatever then the comic versions. Maybe I was wrong about you calling someone who wanted a X ______ or what ever racist for wanting them to look like they do in the comics. Sorry if you didn't but given how hostile you have been lately and using "do you disagree with X and Y then your blank" I think I'll search all the movie threads and check to see if did or didn't care if a character looked the part before I just trust you.

They aren't the same character. You keep operating off an obviously false premise, which is why I question your honesty in how you frame things.

[Orby]

I am going by the Marvel wiki, MCU is Earth-199999. There is no correlation between the MU and the MCU right now. Nothing in the MCU has impacted the MU and vise verse. There are very big glaring differences to. Such as none of what's happened in the MCU has been acknowledged by the comics. So whoever made that statement has no clue what they are talking about.

[PrimiOne]

Nothing in the MCU has impacted the MU and vise verse. There are very big glaring differences to. Such as none of what's happened in the MCU has been acknowledged by the comics.

I have to disagree....just random things that come into my mind that were altered in the comics to match the MCU.


1. The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are no longer mutants but a result of an experiment ( following the origin of the MCU).
2. Tony Stark has a arc reactor in the chest.
3. Hulk is a member of the Avengers ( funny enough Hulk is a founding member of the Avengers but left the group in .....number 2 - he did not last long lol) and he got back into the group in 2012 to match the release of the movie.
4. The area of the universe where Earth is located is no longer Badoon territory but Chi-Tauri's.
5. Red Wing is no longer a bird but a drone.
6. The Defenders are no longer Dr.Strange,Silver Surfer,Namor... ( the original setup) but the ones from the Defenders TV Show.
7. The Guardians of the Galaxy core is the one depicted in the movies ( original members post-Annihilation like Quasar,Nova Prime,MoonDragon,Phyla-Vell...go in and out but the ones that are always in the group are those).
8. Gamora turned from the edgy character , from the last of the Zen Woberi, the wielder of the Godslayer...ultimately the avatar of Death that even Ryder was afraid of ( while banging her) to the well intentioned warm character of the MCU.
9. The Infinity Gems now have the same color scheme as the MCU.
10. The Nova corps that got decimated in Annihilation popped back after GOTG Vol1.
11. "Wakanda forever" is a battle cry in... well Wakanda obviously.
12. Pepper Potts and Happy reappeared after decades of absence.
13. Nick Fury Jr ( Sam L.Jackson lookalike) got his way from the ,now non-existent, Ultimate Universe to E616.
14.Many...Many...Many!!! visual redesing of characters ( Falcon getting the MCU wings....Ant-Man getting the MCU suit)
....

So let's be precise about the bolded statements:

A. If you mean that the MCU does not affect the comics I can't disagree more....quite the opposite comics have become the laboratory of ideas for Marvel Studios ( mostly because one successful movie if the income of several years of comics). Exhibits presented before.

B. If you mean that E-199999 is not reflected in the comics this is not correct. There's several comics based in the E-199999 universe. This is the logo for
those series.


C. If you mean that E-616 and E-199999 have never interacted ( in the comics) I really don't know but I can't see how is this relevant...EarthX ( maybe the best alternate universe Marvel has ever done) never interacted with E616 either but they are both contained in the multiverse.

D. If you mean that E-616 and E-199999 have never interacted ( in the films) well...my theory (and I remark this term) is that movie E616 overlaps comic E616 ( it substitutes the other ) so if this what you are saying I would agree that never have and never will.

[Orby]

B. If you mean that E-199999 is not reflected in the comics this is not correct. There's several comics based in the E-199999 universe. This is the logo for
those series.

yes, this.

[qwerty123456]

Her height was the only reason you gave.



They aren't the same character. You keep operating off an obviously false premise, which is why I question your honesty in how you frame things.

Dude the entire conversation started because of the cgi.... If anyone is trying to be dishonest its you.

I'm not operating off any false premises. I'm stating you saying the characters look different doesn't mean for a fact they are different universes. There are a dozen different possibilities that could explain it like how the MCU isn't the natural state of the universe. What we see on the screen are the after results of a multiversal/time war and an ordering of reality to play out in the ways Nathaniel Richards wanted. I'm not saying it certainly is the exact same universe as there are plenty of explanations as to why they would both be called 616 such as it just being an Easter egg I'm just saying any differences can be explained by already established facts.

[Endus]

Dude the entire conversation started because of the cgi.... If anyone is trying to be dishonest its you.

I'm not operating off any false premises. I'm stating you saying the characters look different doesn't mean for a fact they are different universes. There are a dozen different possibilities that could explain it like how the MCU isn't the natural state of the universe. What we see on the screen are the after results of a multiversal/time war and an ordering of reality to play out in the ways Nathaniel Richards wanted. I'm not saying it certainly is the exact same universe as there are plenty of explanations as to why they would both be called 616 such as it just being an Easter egg I'm just saying any differences can be explained by already established facts.

And directly, conclusively disproven by the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z vol. 5.

[qwerty123456]

And directly, conclusively disproven by the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z vol. 5.

A Handbook that was released over a decade ago? You do realize lore/canon changes right? And that Dr. Strange 2 is the most recent addition to the lore?

[Endus]

A Handbook that was released over a decade ago? You do realize lore/canon changes right? And that Dr. Strange 2 is the most recent addition to the lore?

And yet, that's still the canonical reference for universe designations. They've yet to update it, and nothing in the MCU films is sufficient to contradict it; the easy presumption is that they're using some in-universe designations that aren't the same as the official Marvel designations.

[Endus]

Good lord do we need a new movie or series for people to argue over instead, the current disagreement is so bloody tedious.

The MCU takes ideas from the comics and does whatever it wants with them.
The comics have some tie-ins to stuff from the MCU and may adapt certain points to match what may be seen in the MCU.

Is that pretty much it?

That's the take I keep getting criticized over, basically.

[B01L]

Currently watching Agents of SHIELD again; I dunno how many times, but I do know the first time was as each episode originally aired...! ;^p

Anyway, a whole lot of it seems canon to the MCU; references to/tie-ins with a good bit of Phase One MCU movies, and seventeen characters that also appear in the MCU films...

Feige really needs to bring AOS back; Phil definitely into the movies again, and the rest of the gang into a Disney+ show...

And a great, Great, GREAT Disney+ show would be Marvel's Most Wanted; with Bobbi Morse & Lance Hunter...

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

There's no possible way to make someone look bigger with practical effects. They certainly haven't been doing so for the past 100 years

I'm sure if they could have made Bill Bixby look like Lou Ferrigno...they would have done so

[Lady Atia]

I have to disagree....just random things that come into my mind that were altered in the comics to match the MCU.


1. The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are no longer mutants but a result of an experiment ( following the origin of the MCU).
2. Tony Stark has a arc reactor in the chest.
3. Hulk is a member of the Avengers ( funny enough Hulk is a founding member of the Avengers but left the group in .....number 2 - he did not last long lol) and he got back into the group in 2012 to match the release of the movie.
4. The area of the universe where Earth is located is no longer Badoon territory but Chi-Tauri's.
5. Red Wing is no longer a bird but a drone.
6. The Defenders are no longer Dr.Strange,Silver Surfer,Namor... ( the original setup) but the ones from the Defenders TV Show.
7. The Guardians of the Galaxy core is the one depicted in the movies ( original members post-Annihilation like Quasar,Nova Prime,MoonDragon,Phyla-Vell...go in and out but the ones that are always in the group are those).
8. Gamora turned from the edgy character , from the last of the Zen Woberi, the wielder of the Godslayer...ultimately the avatar of Death that even Ryder was afraid of ( while banging her) to the well intentioned warm character of the MCU.
9. The Infinity Gems now have the same color scheme as the MCU.
10. The Nova corps that got decimated in Annihilation popped back after GOTG Vol1.
11. "Wakanda forever" is a battle cry in... well Wakanda obviously.
12. Pepper Potts and Happy reappeared after decades of absence.
13. Nick Fury Jr ( Sam L.Jackson lookalike) got his way from the ,now non-existent, Ultimate Universe to E616.
14.Many...Many...Many!!! visual redesing of characters ( Falcon getting the MCU wings....Ant-Man getting the MCU suit)
....

So let's be precise about the bolded statements:

A. If you mean that the MCU does not affect the comics I can't disagree more....quite the opposite comics have become the laboratory of ideas for Marvel Studios ( mostly because one successful movie if the income of several years of comics). Exhibits presented before.

B. If you mean that E-199999 is not reflected in the comics this is not correct. There's several comics based in the E-199999 universe. This is the logo for
those series.


C. If you mean that E-616 and E-199999 have never interacted ( in the comics) I really don't know but I can't see how is this relevant...EarthX ( maybe the best alternate universe Marvel has ever done) never interacted with E616 either but they are both contained in the multiverse.

D. If you mean that E-616 and E-199999 have never interacted ( in the films) well...my theory (and I remark this term) is that movie E616 overlaps comic E616 ( it substitutes the other ) so if this what you are saying I would agree that never have and never will.

All of your examples are real life changes that were done in order to match up the comics with the MCU more, not something that in-universe happened because these things happened on some earth in the comics multiverse though. Again, the MCU is a different multiverse than the comics.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the tie-in comics never crossed over with the main comics line, they are seperatly ffs, because they are tie-in comics haha. They have that MCU branding for a reason.

[Shadowferal]

I'm sure if they could have made Bill Bixby look like Lou Ferrigno...they would have done so

Bill Bixby and Robert Downey Jr could be brothers.

[PrimiOne]

All of your examples are real life changes that were done in order to match up the comics with the MCU more, not something that in-universe happened because these things happened on some earth in the comics multiverse though. Again, the MCU is a different multiverse than the comics.

Well,that's why you have 4 options (A,B,C,D) about how the term "Interaction" can be interpreted and the examples explicitly refer to option A ( the broader interpretation...does the MCU affect comics in any way).

You are talking about option C and D.

About C) E-199999 I really don't know if they have never crossed but the E-199999 obviously in included in the multiverse so ( comics perspective) E-199999 and E-616 are in the same multiverse.I have to put the same example EarthX - E9997 I think - never ever interacted with E-616 , nothing that happened in one universe affected in any way to the other in the comics but that does not imply they don't belong to the same multiverse. The argument that an universe not interacting with E616 implies it's not the same multiverse puts basically most of the universes out of the multiverse.

About D) Yeah if we look at it from the films perspective as I already said I think they are separate multiverses ( comics E616 is different from films E616) so if you are using this interpretation we agree.

But the most important thing is....I give up LOL,seriously ..I don't know , it's so obvious and evident to me that I can really process why this discussion lasted this long ( well I really know, there's no film/show to discuss about).

The multiverses ( all of them, yeah I see the paradox) are big and unfathomable ...so interpret as you want

[VMSmith]

It amazes me how much use I get out of Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay, "Self-Reliance", lately:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall."

Canon is what you want to be canon, there's no need to convince anyone else that you're right and they are wrong. If I want to consider the MCU universe as "Earth-dogpoo", then for me it is and it doesn't matter what the rest of you think, or even the opinions of its creators.

[rarhyx]

Multiverse of Madness hits D+ on the 22nd.

wat
for real?

[Biomega]

Canon is what you want to be canon, there's no need to convince anyone else that you're right and they are wrong. If I want to consider the MCU universe as "Earth-dogpoo", then for me it is and it doesn't matter what the rest of you think, or even the opinions of its creators.

I mean, I get what you're trying to say probably but let's be clear: canonicity as a concept exists precisely so we DON'T have to deal with "it can be whatever you want" kind of arguments.

That's... what canon means.

Now, is there always 100% consensus about what is and is not part of the canon? Of course not. There barely ever is, for anything. But that doesn't mean that "lol canon = whatever you want bro" because that's kind of the OPPOSITE of canon.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It amazes me how much use I get out of Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay, "Self-Reliance", lately:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall."

Canon is what you want to be canon, there's no need to convince anyone else that you're right and they are wrong. If I want to consider the MCU universe as "Earth-dogpoo", then for me it is and it doesn't matter what the rest of you think, or even the opinions of its creators.

A favourite quotation of Isaac Asimov, when faced with complaints that one of his story beats contradicted something else he'd written in the same universe. It would be lovely to follow this, but then you'd be wiping out 90% of nerd arguments on the internet. Looking at what makes up the rest of the internet, it doesn't bear thinking what would fill that void......

[VMSmith]

It would be lovely to follow this, but then you'd be wiping out 90% of nerd arguments on the internet.

You are quite correct. But, thinking about it, would we really be losing anything of value if we eliminated nerd arguments about canonicity? As RWE (and, yes, Isaac Asimov) points out, these are the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel, total loser, sorts of things to be concerned with. The fact that people can go on about a minor quibble such as the designation of a cinematic world for days on end is staggeringly banal. When we watched The Simpsons we weren't laughing with Comic Book Guy, we were laughing at him. They are the butt of the joke for not realizing how trivially useless the point is, especially given the level of effort people put into arguing it.

When this thread argues the motivations of characters I find that much more interesting because people catch things that I miss and you learn more about a film and the characters that inhabit it. My son pointed out today how in NWH Strange mentioned there were four changes, though Peter had only asked for three. It's a nice detail that pays off later on in MoM.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, I get what you're trying to say probably but let's be clear: canonicity as a concept exists precisely so we DON'T have to deal with "it can be whatever you want" kind of arguments.

But all canon is exactly that, in a sense. It's whatever the current writer wants. Canon is not something written into the fabric of the universe, we're making it all up as we go along. And that's not even getting into the concept that everyone perceives things slightly differently so even though a writer may intend one thing, parts of the audience may come to a completely different conclusion based on their own experiences and biases.

[Biomega]

But all canon is exactly that, in a sense. It's whatever the current writer wants.

But it's not whatever the current READER wants.

They put together canons for the specific reason of providing the audience with a common frame of reference. That's not immutable or eternal, in fact it's entirely normal for it to change as new material is added or old material is removed - but BY THE CREATORS, not by the audience.

If canon just was whatever any people wanted, it wouldn't really have any meaning or purpose.