[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[PrimiOne]

The thing is: in one page , just in one page of discussion here in this forum we can see the difficulty of the situation and the full spectrum.

1. Some wanted to recast T'Challa.
2. Some are ok with Shuri.
3. Some would have liked M'Baku.
4. One would have liked Okoye.
5. One would have liked Nakia....wait? No one said that? That's right. It's me who is saying that. Nakia would have been the perfect Black Panther.
....
We just have to wait for someone saying Ramonda and we have the full circle.

[Soulwind]

We just have to wait for someone saying Ramonda and we have the full circle.

Where's my mature black female superhero representation?!

[Fabinas]

The thing is: in one page , just in one page of discussion here in this forum we can see the difficulty of the situation and the full spectrum.

1. Some wanted to recast T'Challa.
2. Some are ok with Shuri.
3. Some would have liked M'Baku.
4. One would have liked Okoye.
5. One would have liked Nakia....wait? No one said that? That's right. It's me who is saying that. Nakia would have been the perfect Black Panther.
....
We just have to wait for someone saying Ramonda and we have the full circle.

1. I agree with people AGAINST recasting.
2. I belong here.
3. I belong here too
4. Michonne couldn't make it.
5. That could have been. But she's the momma, so, no go.
6. As you see someone said it, but i doubt Basset could also make it. Be it age, role demands etc.

[Kathandira]

Where's my mature black female superhero representation?!

Coming soon in The Marvels.

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On the topic of recasting. The opportunity is still there. There is a new T'Challa on the block. Just need a time jump of sorts and they can recast the role as an adult.

Pending on the next few movies featuring the OG avengers cast, it is possible that the adults are getting phased out to make room for new actors to pick up the new generation of heroes.

So far we have the following. There are 10 young heroes already introduced in the MCU. Most of which make up the Young Avengers team.

Kate Bishop
Kid Loki
Stature
Iron Heart
Patriot
Ms Marvel
Wiccan
Speed
America Chavez
Skaar

[qwerty123456]

Recasting would have treated Boseman as interchangeable and replaceable. It would have been disrespectful and a disservice to his legacy. The treatment here implicitly equates Boseman with T'Challa very directly, having them die from similar causes even, and allows his co-stars to express their grief at his passing very directly in the film itself.

This isn't comparable to recasting Bruce Banner or Rhodie, both of which happened because Ed Norton and Terrence Howard wanted more money than was on offer. Nothing about either actor was all that iconic in their respective roles, and there was no massive audience support for either's portrayal. They were interchangeable and replaceable.

We've been recasting deceased actors for a hundred years and it hasn't been disrespectful. Imo making T'Challa = Boseman felt more disrespectful as it felt like they were trying to cash in on his death. I'd rather they have done an in loving memory and get a friend of his or someone he respected to do the film the way they planed it before he died then retire the character. I know its not exactly the same since Heath Ledger completed like half of The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus before he died but I like how they used actors that actually had been friends with him to be the transformed versions of the character and how they all gave their pay to his daughter. I didn't hear anything about Disney giving Boseman's wife any money or donating some proceeds from the film to a cancer charity or anything. The only tribute they did as far as I know is making Chadwick the only T'Challa(for now, we will see if in 20 years they reboot the marvel universe if they don't use T'Challa) then making the film about his death knowing they would make a fuckload of money off it.

[Darththeo]

The idea of recasting Chadwick is mind boggling to me, he wasn’t some side character like Ross or just a good portrayal like tony he was a major cultural icon for black people who's shoes couldn’t be filled be any one else at this time and the idea that the same marvel who said no one would notice because “black people look the same” when they recast rhode would do it would and should go down like a lead balloon.

Ignoring that the character is rather hugely important to the Marvel storyline. Important to show Black heroes.

Yeah, let's argue that no one can possibly fill Boseman's shoes because he was so awesome.

I get honoring the character by not recasting, I do. But, the idea that it would not have been possible or suicide makes no sense. The only reason it is viewed as suicide is because the cast didn't want to do it. That would have required recasting tons of character which just doesn't work.

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You'd also have to find someone good enough that was actually willing to step into Chadwick Boseman's shoes. I doubt you would.

That is a valid point. Not a lot of actors are willing to come into a role like that in general.

Harrison Ford was hesitant to take over for Hurt.

[Syegfryed]

I have to ask, because I just don't get it.

What was so great about Chadwick Boseman? Why is he viewed as some pillar of acting excellence?

This isn't coming from any place but my own ignorance, so if someone can help me understand why he was so beloved, i'd appreciate it.

Half the people talking like he is a, irreplaceable god didn't even knew the guy, or new his work before his death, its extremely hypocrite trying to act all mighty and high now

I also has some problematic thinking as some people think there is no other black actors talented enough to fill his shoes. The real disrespect with the character and the actor is what disney did to milk money on top of it, and didn't even gave him a hero's death

[Witchblade77]

so I got around to fully watching Wakanda forever. IMO, it was fun. had issues, but mostly fun. it honestly felt like there was enough material for 2 movies, but they had to cut it down into one, so we get montages where actual interactions should be (IMO - like with Shuri and Riri- we see them interact, but mostly to music during montage, which is just.. blah), characters that are named, but not developed at all, like pretty much everyone in Talokan besides Namor, like we know Namora and Attuma are important as they are shown to be sort of minibosses and they get names, but what is their relationship to Namor? only comic readers will know. and that's just characters introduced in the movie, I get that this is part of the ongoing narrative, but at this point its gotten to the level of WoW stories and tie in materials, where you HAVE to do the shows to understand half the stuff happening or know who the heck all the cameos are. its getting kinda silly.

and Riri's armor that she is supposed to leave in wakanda, as if she cannot design it again, or why she is building it the way she did. I understand that its a nod to her comic book origins as Tony Stark's protégé, but she isn't one in this movie I don't think he is mentioned at ALL, so WHAT THE FUCK WITH ALL THE HAMMERING AND PUNCHING OUT THE HEART IN MOST INNEFICIENT WAY POSSIBLE???? girl... you have acess to futuristic technology, a decent hydraulic press and a laser cutter is NOTHING. especially when you are on a limited time budget.

interactions with Nakia are all over the place too, Shuri resents her for leaving, they don't clear the air at ALL, and they are suddenly hugging again, and it just... honestly narrative felt rushed like there was more to the story, but the time constraints, so they cut half the context out, the movies specific context, not just all the marvel tie ins.

and now its sounding like I hated the movie, but honestly? I didn't. I enjoyed it. I cried at both Chadwick Boseman tributes. I loved how they set up the look of Talokan. I appreciated at least a nod to why Daniel Kalua was not in the movie, despite being Okoye's husband and I will never stop giggling at Okoye's ethnocentrism, it gives her character flaws. the music was great, and visuals in general not just Talokan.

but the storytelling just wasn't as tight as the first one, you know?

[Al Gorefiend]

I have to ask, because I just don't get it.

What was so great about Chadwick Boseman? Why is he viewed as some pillar of acting excellence?

This isn't coming from any place but my own ignorance, so if someone can help me understand why he was so beloved, i'd appreciate it.

Same reason Kurt Cobain was a music icon, and Heath Ledger was the greatest Joker of all time.

If a celebrity dies at the height of their career, their final role or performance is regarded as a magnum opus of sorts.

[Ivanstone]

I know there had to be a showdown between the two, but having Namor singlehandedly destroying all of Wakanda's defenses and airships, just by flying around with his little feather wings, i found it meh.

He didn’t destroy Wakanda’s defences with his little feather wings.

He destroyed their defences with immense superhuman strength, incredible agility and great durability even when they could lay a hit on him. He had them out powered by a huge margin. Never mind the horde of Atlanteans who are also super humanly strong.

BP2 is underwhelming but one thing I liked is how the Wakandans needed to ScienceTheShit out of Namor to win.

[Biomega]

BP2 is underwhelming but one thing I liked is how the Wakandans needed to ScienceTheShit out of Namor to win.

I'm glad they went that way, because it really seemed like the necessary angle - one civilization being more about people power, and the other being about science power.

But that really only underlines the classic MCU setup of "villains have the same/similar powers as the heroes" which really, really, really annoys me to no end. That they should both be centered around vibranium is, to me, lazy and uninspired writing. Sure it slots in nicely with the setup of Wakanda vs. the World but it also takes away their uniqueness and distinguishing characteristic - doubly so because Talokan is also just a repeat of "civilization threatened by Western colonizers saved by vibranium and self-imposed exile". It's really just 90% Wakanda-Except-Underwater, and the remaining 10% is the degree of technology employed vs. the individual physiological changes. Heck even DC's Atlantis is more distinct than that, for all the drum-playing octopus nonsense it has.

Pet peeve: anyone else got annoyed that even though he himself "properly" (given the etymology) says Namor [Nahmorr], everyone else keeps saying Namor [Naymohr]?

[Witchblade77]

He didn’t destroy Wakanda’s defences with his little feather wings.

He destroyed their defences with immense superhuman strength, incredible agility and great durability even when they could lay a hit on him. He had them out powered by a huge margin. Never mind the horde of Atlanteans who are also super humanly strong.

BP2 is underwhelming but one thing I liked is how the Wakandans needed to ScienceTheShit out of Namor to win.

didn't he also bring his entire damn army to pull wakandan defenses away from the palace so that he could make his way there? like... he didn't actually destroy those defenses singlehandedly, he is pretty OP, but he still needed support of his military and his goal in a first invasion was to prove a damn point and to keep his word to Ramonda.. (you know, who pulled him away to give Nakia opportunity to rescue Shuri, so tit for tat and all that?)

it wasn't just Namor, it was the might of Talokan in general that was such a threat to Wakanda that they had to science the shit out of Namor to either have him yield or die and home that his army goes away without his leadership (and that's part of the problem I have with lack of development for Namora and Attuma, because I'm pretty damn certain that they would take up the leadership immediately and drown wakanda in its entirety.

[Fabinas]

He didn’t destroy Wakanda’s defences with his little feather wings.

He destroyed their defences with immense superhuman strength, incredible agility and great durability even when they could lay a hit on him. He had them out powered by a huge margin. Never mind the horde of Atlanteans who are also super humanly strong.

BP2 is underwhelming but one thing I liked is how the Wakandans needed to ScienceTheShit out of Namor to win.

Really? that was your answer? Thanks for correcting me (not).

Guess you were bored.

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didn't he also bring his entire damn army to pull wakandan defenses away from the palace so that he could make his way there? like... he didn't actually destroy those defenses singlehandedly, he is pretty OP, but he still needed support of his military and his goal in a first invasion was to prove a damn point and to keep his word to Ramonda.. (you know, who pulled him away to give Nakia opportunity to rescue Shuri, so tit for tat and all that?)

it wasn't just Namor, it was the might of Talokan in general that was such a threat to Wakanda that they had to science the shit out of Namor to either have him yield or die and home that his army goes away without his leadership (and that's part of the problem I have with lack of development for Namora and Attuma, because I'm pretty damn certain that they would take up the leadership immediately and drown wakanda in its entirety.

Oh God, really?

The point of my post is that i find his little feet wing too gimmicky. Too small, too badly placed to give him that kind of speed, power and agility IN HIS FLYING.

You people...

[Witchblade77]

Really? that was your answer? Thanks for correcting me (not).

Guess you were bored.

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Oh God, really?

The point of my post is that i find his little feet wing too gimmicky. Too small, too badly placed to give him that kind of speed, power and agility IN HIS FLYING.

You people...

oh really? are you seriously bitching about they being COMIC BOOK ACCURATE there? REALLY?



of all the things to complain in movies FULL of comic book logic, THIS. THIS is what you chose to have a gripe with?

[Endus]

Oh God, really?

The point of my post is that i find his little feet wing too gimmicky. Too small, too badly placed to give him that kind of speed, power and agility IN HIS FLYING.

You people...

So why don't you have a problem with how Captain Marvel can fly? Or Scarlet Witch? Vision? Thor?

The ankle wings are symbolic. They could not themselves provide the lift, by normal physics, to allow the flight we see Namor engage in. Namor's musculature couldn't justify his strength, either. Nor his ability to breathe oxygen through his skin from water. You can extend this to basically every superhero; they have supernatural abilities that are impossible under real-world physics. That's the genre. It's all gimmicky nonsense that violates physics. Why pick these out from all the rest?

I'd agree they're silly, but they're 80-years-of-comics-accurate, so I'll handwave a lot for the sake of accuracy. But if you're complaining it's violating your suspension of disbelief, I'm going to point out this is a comic book movie, and the standard for suspension of disbelief easily includes ankle-wings. It's no sillier than Rocket Raccoon, or Infinity Stones, or Norse gods being real dudes.

[Syegfryed]

The ankle wings are symbolic. They could not themselves provide the lift, by normal physics, to allow the flight we see Namor engage in.

do we have confirmation that Namor flight is by itself, not related to his little wings, and that is just cosmetic?

And pretty sure his point is that he doesn't like because it looks stupid, he flying around that fast with powerful with little wings on his feet, even if its not, you kinda associate the image of flight with wings.

[Endus]

do we have confirmation that Namor flight is by itself, not related to his little wings, and that is just cosmetic?

In the comics, I'm pretty sure they're defined as symbolic; I can't recall if hurting the wings cuts off the flying, it might, that doesn't make it not-symbolic, just that it's connected in some manner other than physical capacity.

In the MCU, unstated.

And pretty sure his point is that he doesn't like because it looks stupid, he flying around that fast with powerful with little wings on his feet, even if its not, you kinda associate the image of flight with wings.

I actually really liked the movement style it enabled. You could get the same with any kinds of rocket boots or whatever, too.

But seriously; look at the superheroes in Marvel (or DC, for that matter). Tons of fliers. Almost nobody with wings. Some, sure; Hawkman in DC, but nobody in the MCU with wings as of yet. Maybe we'll get Angel when/if the X-men show up, maybe we'll get Sauron as a villain. Do we want to count Vulture's mech-suit as "wings" even if he's flying by virtue of v-tol propeller systems and a jetpack?

I fundamentally dispute that, in the MCU, there's any association between shoulder-based wings and flight for powered characters. We've got literally not one actual example of that in the MCU so far that I can think of offhand, and plenty of others who don't have wings at all, let along ankle-wings.

Oh, wait, the Valkyries ride pegasi. Do we count those?

[Fabinas]

oh really? are you seriously bitching about they being COMIC BOOK ACCURATE there? REALLY?



of all the things to complain in movies FULL of comic book logic, THIS. THIS is what you chose to have a gripe with?

Just because it is comic accurate, doesn't mean it isn't silly.

And i couldn't care less about silliness in comics. I care about it in my movies. Thank you for telling me my opinion about silly stuff is wrong and i should accept the comics artists and your opinion as bible.

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In the comics, I'm pretty sure they're defined as symbolic; I can't recall if hurting the wings cuts off the flying, it might, that doesn't make it not-symbolic, just that it's connected in some manner other than physical capacity.

In the MCU, unstated.



I actually really liked the movement style it enabled. You could get the same with any kinds of rocket boots or whatever, too.

But seriously; look at the superheroes in Marvel (or DC, for that matter). Tons of fliers. Almost nobody with wings. Some, sure; Hawkman in DC, but nobody in the MCU with wings as of yet. Maybe we'll get Angel when/if the X-men show up, maybe we'll get Sauron as a villain. Do we want to count Vulture's mech-suit as "wings" even if he's flying by virtue of v-tol propeller systems and a jetpack?

I fundamentally dispute that, in the MCU, there's any association between shoulder-based wings and flight for powered characters. We've got literally not one actual example of that in the MCU so far that I can think of offhand, and plenty of others who don't have wings at all, let along ankle-wings.

Oh, wait, the Valkyries ride pegasi. Do we count those?

I think Suri cut one of his wings in movie and he stopped flying around then. But i cba to check, to be honest.

[Endus]

Just because it is comic accurate, doesn't mean it isn't silly.

It does mean the silliness is part of the genre expectations.

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I think Suri cut one of his wings in movie and he stopped flying around then. But i cba to check, to be honest.

That happened when Namor was already super weak and struggling to get to the water, and I don't think (and can't be arsed to check) that we see him try and fail to fly at that point, so it's unclear if it's the wing being torn off or just that he's barely vertical in the first place.

[Fabinas]

So why don't you have a problem with how Captain Marvel can fly? Or Scarlet Witch? Vision? Thor?

The ankle wings are symbolic. They could not themselves provide the lift, by normal physics, to allow the flight we see Namor engage in. Namor's musculature couldn't justify his strength, either. Nor his ability to breathe oxygen through his skin from water. You can extend this to basically every superhero; they have supernatural abilities that are impossible under real-world physics. That's the genre. It's all gimmicky nonsense that violates physics. Why pick these out from all the rest?

I'd agree they're silly, but they're 80-years-of-comics-accurate, so I'll handwave a lot for the sake of accuracy. But if you're complaining it's violating your suspension of disbelief, I'm going to point out this is a comic book movie, and the standard for suspension of disbelief easily includes ankle-wings. It's no sillier than Rocket Raccoon, or Infinity Stones, or Norse gods being real dudes.

Most of those fliers have a plausible explanation.

I find those wings a not plausible one. That's all.

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It does mean the silliness is part of the genre expectations.

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That happened when Namor was already super weak and struggling to get to the water, and I don't think (and can't be arsed to check) that we see him try and fail to fly at that point, so it's unclear if it's the wing being torn off or just that he's barely vertical in the first place.

I can accept some silly stuff, some others i cannot. I do believe i have the right to my opinion and to voice it. Just because you happen to argue for that silliness does not invalidate my opinion, nor makes your position a a principle all MCU viewers should adhere to.