[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Endus]

They - the iluminati - say they can deal with her, just fine, implying, yes, they were prepared, especially knowing how advanced they were and what enemies they faced already.

Apparently, the idea that a character in a movie might be arrogant and/or just outright wrong isn't possible, and thus it must be a plot hole, because all characters are perfect and never say anything that might turn out to not be accurate.

Absolutely ridiculous, dude. They said they were prepared, and then Wanda nearly immediately demonstrated they were, in fact, not. They were wrong. That wasn't the fault of the writing, that was the Illuminati underestimating the threat.

Furthermore, he was dumb enough to say to the enemy the power of one of his "friends" that lead to his death, and though it would be a good idea to stretch grab the witch ????, the most intelligent person in the world does not do that.

How would you know? Are you the most intelligent person in the world?

They clearly thought Wanda could be reasoned with. Reed warned her, not realizing she could basically instantly and instinctually rewrite reality itself with no prep needed whatsoever, which she did to remove Black Bolt's mouth, while mocking Reed's threat to his face.

Again, this is just Reed being wrong. Being intelligent doesn't make you omnipotent or infallible. You'd hate Reed in the comics if you took this standard and applied it there, because it's a ridiculous standard that doesn't hold up.

Also, how the rest of the iluminati simple watch him being peel to death and didn't move a finger, whole scene was atrocious dumb.

We can put "freezing for a moment due to shock" down for "Things Syegfryed wants to pretend are plot holes/bad writing rather than just normal human behaviour".

[Soulwind]

Apparently, the idea that a character in a movie might be arrogant and/or just outright wrong isn't possible, and thus it must be a plot hole, because all characters are perfect and never say anything that might turn out to not be accurate.

Absolutely ridiculous, dude. They said they were prepared, and then Wanda nearly immediately demonstrated they were, in fact, not. They were wrong. That wasn't the fault of the writing, that was the Illuminati underestimating the threat.

How would you know? Are you the most intelligent person in the world?

They clearly thought Wanda could be reasoned with. Reed warned her, not realizing she could basically instantly and instinctually rewrite reality itself with no prep needed whatsoever, which she did to remove Black Bolt's mouth, while mocking Reed's threat to his face.

Again, this is just Reed being wrong. Being intelligent doesn't make you omnipotent or infallible. You'd hate Reed in the comics if you took this standard and applied it there, because it's a ridiculous standard that doesn't hold up.

We can put "freezing for a moment due to shock" down for "Things Syegfryed wants to pretend are plot holes/bad writing rather than just normal human behaviour".

To be fair, they could, and should, have shown that they were prepared for 90% of what Wanda could do, but that unexpected 10% be their end. Having all of them killed at once after saying a couple of lines makes them seem more powerless than arrogant. The shock value is funny and all, but it's also a disservice to those characters.

[Syegfryed]

Apparently, the idea that a character in a movie might be arrogant and/or just outright wrong isn't possible, and thus it must be a plot hole, because all characters are perfect and never say anything that might turn out to not be accurate.

Arrogance comes from confidence, confidence comes from preparations/experiences, they are the illuminati, earth mightiest heroes on their own universe, they defeated thanos without the infinite stones, they should be much better than this.

No one is talking about plotholes but yourself, can't help to make a strawman to defend something bad can't you?

How would you know? Are you the most intelligent person in the world?

And how do you know? no, better, how do you NOT know?

If someone who is not, can see that saying the enemy your strength and weakness is something dumb, why would the most intelligent person not realize that?

They clearly thought Wanda could be reasoned with.

Did they also though she could be reasoned when she blow up the head of blackbolt?

cause captain marvel and carter didn't do shit when she blow blackbolt head and shread Reed

We can put "freezing for a moment due to shock" down for "Things Syegfryed wants to pretend are plot holes/bad writing rather than just normal human behaviour".

Shock my ass, they are in this business for years, they saw countless of friends dying, they even kill their own friends when it needs, saying the mightiest heroes were shocked and frozen waiting for her to kill then is as obnoxious as defending the bad scene.

Its so dumb that Reed acts right after she does, and the others two fuckers don't.. But go on, keep defending the pile of shit

[Lorgar Aurelian]

and though it would be a good idea to stretch grab the witch ????, the most intelligent person in the world does not do that.

You don't read alot of fantastic 4 do you? Just stretching and grabbing people is something reed does all the and it coming back to bite him when he can't hold them is also super common.

Him doing so in the movie is completely true to his comic character.

[Syegfryed]

You don't read alot of fantastic 4 do you? Just stretching and grabbing people is something reed does all the and it coming back to bite him when he can't hold them is also super common.

Him doing so in the movie is completely true to his comic character.

So you are saying he does that to every single enemy, every time, and does not pounder if its a good idea or not, thats is only gig, stretch and grab /s

[Endus]

Arrogance comes from confidence, confidence comes from preparations/experiences, they are the illuminati, earth mightiest heroes on their own universe, they defeated thanos without the infinite stones, they should be much better than this.

On what basis? You're literally just making this up.

And how do you know? no, better, how do you NOT know?

I never made any such claims. I'm just taking the film events as we saw them occur. You are the one trying to argue there's something wrong with what was presented.

If someone who is not, can see that saying the enemy your strength and weakness is something dumb, why would the most intelligent person not realize that?

It was a threat. If you've got a gun, and you want to threaten someone with the power of that gun, you kind of have to let them know you have a gun. Threats don't work if the target is unaware of your ability to back up that threat.

Did they also though she could be reasoned when she blow up the head of blackbolt?

cause captain marvel and carter didn't do shit when she blow blackbolt head and shread Reed

Not immediately. They sure did a moment later, though. So I guess you really don't understand that emotional shock exists.

Edit: I went back and checked. About 20 seconds between Bolt's head exploding and the rest engaging. And more than half of that was watching Reed get shredded. That's moments. You're acting like there was some huge delay, and there wasn't.

Shock my ass, they are in this business for years, they saw countless of friends dying, they even kill their own friends when it needs, saying the mightiest heroes were shocked and frozen waiting for her to kill then is as obnoxious as defending the bad scene.

Again, your issue seems to be that these characters aren't infallibly perfect in every single way at all times.

That's not an argument, it's just empty whinging for the sake of whinging.

Its so dumb that Reed acts right after she does, and the others two fuckers don't.. But go on, keep defending the pile of shit

I'm not so much defending the film (which was pretty great, but that's irrelevant), I'm pointing out you don't have any argument that backs up your claims. Just completely unreasonable standards that no characters would ever be held to.

It isn't about whether the film was good. It's that your criticisms are bad.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So youa re saying he does that do every single enemy, and does not pounder if its a good idea or not, thats is only gig, stretch and grab /s

Mabye go read some of there actual comics because yes grabbing people without thinking it through first is something he does all the time and getting injured because of it happens all the time.

it might not be the only thing he does like your starwman but it is absolutely a common part of the character.

[MrLachyG]

On what basis? You're literally just making this up.



I never made any such claims. I'm just taking the film events as we saw them occur. You are the one trying to argue there's something wrong with what was presented.



It was a threat. If you've got a gun, and you want to threaten someone with the power of that gun, you kind of have to let them know you have a gun. Threats don't work if the target is unaware of your ability to back up that threat.



Not immediately. They sure did a moment later, though. So I guess you really don't understand that emotional shock exists.

Edit: I went back and checked. About 20 seconds between Bolt's head exploding and the rest engaging. And more than half of that was watching Reed get shredded. That's moments. You're acting like there was some huge delay, and there wasn't.



Again, your issue seems to be that these characters aren't infallibly perfect in every single way at all times.

That's not an argument, it's just empty whinging for the sake of whinging.



I'm not so much defending the film (which was pretty great, but that's irrelevant), I'm pointing out you don't have any argument that backs up your claims. Just completely unreasonable standards that no characters would ever be held to.

It isn't about whether the film was good. It's that your criticisms are bad.

Just stop replying to him. It’s like arguing with a brick wall at this point

[Syegfryed]

On what basis? You're literally just making this up.

lmao

I never made any such claims.

Literally made up shit about plotholes, never bring that up here, you did.

It was a threat. If you've got a gun, and you want to threaten someone with the power of that gun, you kind of have to let them know you have a gun. Threats don't work if the target is unaware of your ability to back up that threat.

Read what you wrote again, think about the scene and who they were facing, and you will realize you are wrong by your own without me explaining anything

Not immediately. They sure did a moment later, though. So I guess you really don't understand that emotional shock exists.

ah yes, when blackbolt blast his head and when she take her sweet time to shread Reed, they wre in such shock that only after the friends died, they act

emotional shock, from the mightiest heroes, who are in the business for a long time, that saw countless of friends die already. Like Captain carter who kill and saw many friends dying in the war? or when they fought thanos??

You are acting like they have the emotional of teenagers who just put their uniforms, its bullshit and pathetic

I'm not so much defending the film (which was pretty great, but that's irrelevant), I'm pointing out you don't have any argument that backs up your claims. Just completely unreasonable standards that no characters would ever be held to.

It isn't about whether the film was good. It's that your criticisms are bad.

I do have the argument, the scene was dumb and bad written, no matter how hard you try to spin it. Like, if it was me, sure, but a lot of people criticize the iluminati scene and how they badly managed the fight, of how, by example, charles xavier lost in a mind combat to her, bullshit.

Im not talking about the movie, im talking about this scene

Its just that hard to accept something was not rly well done? this is not even bias anymore, is delusional

- - - Updated - - -

Mabye go read some of there actual comics because yes grabbing people without thinking it through first is something he does all the time and getting injured because of it happens all the time.

You didn't, in fact answer my question. And all the examples you gave are people with brute force, not with magic. Like, im pretty sure he would not try to stretch and grab someone made of LAVA. I didn't read many fantastic four issues yes, but i remember a what if of venom with Reed and he was not strething and grabbing the symbyontes

You are literally saying he can't grab things by stretching his arm and throwing, by example, like this is something that never came up in his arsenal before, ridiculous

[Endus]

Read what you wrote again, think about the scene and who they were facing, and you will realize you are wrong by your own without me explaining anything

Okay, done. Nope, you're still whinging over nothing.

ah yes, when blackbolt blast his head and when she take her sweet time to shread Reed, they wre in such shock that only after the friends died, they act

emotional shock, from the mightiest heroes, who are in the business for a long time, that saw countless of friends die already. Like Captain carter who kill and saw many friends dying in the war? or when they fought thanos??

Yep. Particularly because this is a film and not a historical document, and narrative tropes and pacing exist as concerns.

I do have the argument, the scene was dumb and bad written, no matter how hard you try to spin it. Like, if it was me, sure, but a lot of people criticize the iluminati scene and how they badly managed the fight, of how, by example, charles xavier lost in a mind combat to her, bullshit.

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. You don't have an argument. You're just stamping your foot and demanding we agree with you.

Well, we don't. Your arguments don't hold up. They're ridiculous. None of these characters were infallible, and Wanda's stronger than any of them. What's the problem with that?

Even in the comics, Wanda outclasses every single one of these characters. And it's not particularly close.

Its just that hard to accept something was not rly well done? this is not even bias anymore, is delusional

If it really wasn't well done, I'd agree that it wasn't well done.

You haven't actually pointed to a single actual problem with the scene in question.

[Syegfryed]

Okay, done. Nope, you're still whinging over nothing.

Do you realize you are "whinging" over "my whinging"? how petty this can get?

I just said the movie didn't do charater justice, and you are starting a scene like a Karen, trying to prove me wrong, despite the scene being considered dumb by many people

Yep. Particularly because this is a film and not a historical document, and narrative tropes and pacing exist as concerns.

So, they made character who should be mature and cold, who should already be prepared to this kind of shock and to act immediately because of their training and experiences, be dumbfolded and frozen in shock, for the sake of the narrative and pacing, because its cool like that.

And you still don't realize how bad this end up being, honestly, not surprised, that checks out

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. You don't have an argument. You're just stamping your foot and demanding we agree with you.

That some nice projection right there

When did i demand that you, of all people, should "agree with me? like look at a mirror, you are the one who started to argue, you are trying to prove how am i wrong and that i have no argument and how i should think like you

Like i said, beyond bias.

[DingDongKing]

Fantastic Four certainly has the capacity to be a massive thing for the MCU, so I'll be most interested in what they do. Can't do any worse than what we had last, at least lol

I'd much rather they just focus on making good movies in the immediacy instead of announcing something for 4 years from now.

But hey ho. Yes, it worked out last time with Infinity War/Endgame at the end, but the number of poor films before that was far less.

We're into Phase 5 now, and out of the last 8 films released I've only enjoyed 3.

Black Widow, Eternals, Doctor Strange 2, Thor 4 & Antman 3 were all really poor for me.

[Syegfryed]

TIL some people think you either freeze in shock or you are a robot without emotions

[Immitis]

F4 could fit in in a number of different ways. Depends on how crazy they want to go with the multiverse thing. Like, Multiverse of Madness already established "Reed as Big Name figure" is a thing in other universes, so the question then becomes: What has Richards been doing in the "main" marvel universe that basically kept him off everyone's radar up till now? I mean, he's a super genius level intellect with tech capabilities on par with Stark, so where has he been hiding while the MCU did it's thing?

Another thing is that I kind of really don't want them to do a full fledged origin story for the FF as their "introduction" into the MCU, if you know what I mean. We've already done that. Twice. Just have them come out the gate running, sort of the way they did with Spiderman's MCU entrance. Explain the powers in a quick flashback or two and just let them get to doing their thing.

in ds2 stephen says "didnt they get lost in space in the 60s" so that semi explains where they are, somewhere in space or something.

i just saw ant man 3. say what you want but that movie may be my new favorite movie i loved it so much it was the most comic book thing ive ever watched the only one that comes close to it is no way home although i love paul rudd and everytime michael douglas says ANTS i cackle

kang go hard

[Surfd]

They - the iluminati - say they can deal with her, just fine, implying, yes, they were prepared, especially knowing how advanced they were and what enemies they faced already.

Key word: "Implying". You can Imply a lot of shit. Implying that you know everything does not mean that you do, in fact, know everything.

The Illuminati were arrogant because it is implied that they had fought and defeated other Wanda's before. The problem is, they had bad information, because they had never encountered a fully awakened Scarlet Witch Wanda empowered by the Darkhold before, since there can literally only be ONE of those in the entire multiverse and MoM Wanda was the first.

They thought they were dealing with "just another Wanda" and didn't understand that they were about to get their asses handed to them by Wanda+ 2.0 Deluxe Edition, because they had never encountered something like her before.

Implying that you are infallible does not, in fact, make you infallible.

[Syegfryed]

Implying that you are infallible does not, in fact, make you infallible.

Right, i never said they should be infallible, i said they should, at least, look competent, and that wasn't the case, as people point out, they were teens frozen by shock, when they should have acted immediately, like Reed did, or tried to do.,

Nevertheless, i just mention how dumb it was for reed to reveal his ally strength, that easy, for the witch to be aware and tamper with. that goes into, how the hell she could do that(and she doesn't do similar often). And if his voice is that strong it would have blow his mouth open, but at least that is ok to my suspension of disbelief.

[DingDongKing]

Nature of the MCU beast, I suppose. All this shit has to be planned out years in advance, so you generally know what is slotting in where, and roughly how long it'll take.

The issue with the present MCU, for me, is mostly one of volume. Phase 1 was a total of 6 movies over 4 years. That's it. Phase 4 is 7 movies, 8 TV series, and 2 specials (which probably don't count). All over just 18 months. Slow that shit down, top trying to cram so much in, let the CG folks breathe a little lol

Let the CG folks breathe. Let the writers breathe. Let the music composers breathe. Try building actual sets to lend a bit of presence to films.

The entire thing has become so conveyor belt now that the even the charming things feel overdone. There was actually a time when I enjoyed waiting for a post-credits scene. Now it just feels like an annoying obligation, which is inevitably a let down. It's always the same emotion again and again. Obscure reference leading to my wife asking, 'what the fuck is that about?' And it's like...I know, but I don't actually give a shit...

And that's what it comes down to for me. The emotional arcs in most of the films recently have been so bloody poor. I'm not expecting every film to end like Infinity War or Endgame, where a big loss is felt. But I am expecting a sense of excitement when the hero wins. It's shit when there's no sense of 'I wanna see HOW the hero wins' to even hang on with. At that point I'm lost as an audience member.

I hadn't been to watch a Marvel film in the cinema since Shang Chi. I'll go for GOTG3 because I love James Gunn, but I can see myself skipping the rest of this entire Phase in the cinema. Will wait for streaming. I'd actually much rather wait for the eventual DCU slate, since it's about characters I care about with a producer who's not going to just keep pushing films out to keep the fan service gravy train going.

[Surfd]

Right, i never said they should be infallible, i said they should, at least, look competent, and that wasn't the case, as people point out, they were teens frozen by shock, when they should have acted immediately, like Reed did, or tried to do.,

Nevertheless, i just mention how dumb it was for reed to reveal his ally strength, that easy, for the witch to be aware and tamper with. that goes into, how the hell she could do that(and she doesn't do similar often).

My read on that entire scene (basically all of Illuminati world) was that this was a group of Arrogant, Overconfident Heroes who were effectively sundowning. The setup suggests that it has been a fair number of years since they defeated their Thanos and that their world has largely been at peace since. Yes, it was a tragic event, etc, etc, but they came out on top, and don't seem to have had any major challenges since. So the "Illuminati Council" has basically just been ruling shit (maybe from the shadows, but the presence of the facility they were in + the ultron bot guards seemed to suggest probably openly), resting on their laurels as "the guys who beat thanos" and poking around with multiverse exploration (how dangerous can it be, after all, we defeated Thanos!). Basically, it came off as a bunch of super arrogant "we defeated Thanos, the biggest danger in the universe" Heroes who think they know it all getting a very rude awakening when they find out that they don't, in fact, know it all.

I mean, all it really took was the patronizing nature of the way Reed told MCU Strange to shut up when Strange tried to warn them that Wanda was dangerous to basically expect them to get comically bitch-slapped by someone who can warp reality with her mind. It's the kind of thing you straight up expect when an obviously ridiculously arrogant character makes an appearance: 99% of the time, they get put in their place.

Arrogance and Hubris and what they do to a person are are HUGE themes that run through the Dr Strange movies, and I think the Illuminati scene was a perfect representation of how it can present when dealing with Supers. They were Arrogant and overconfident, and their Hubris cost them their lives.

And if his voice is that strong it would have blow his mouth open, but at least that is ok to my suspension of disbelief.

The pretty obvious answer here is that something about Blackbolt's physiology likely makes him largely immune to his own power. Otherwise, as a guy who can literally crack planets in half with his voice, every time he whispered he would blast his own teeth out of his mouth, rip off his lips and blow out his cheeks.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You didn't, in fact answer my question. And all the examples you gave are people with brute force, not with magic. Like, im pretty sure he would not try to stretch and grab someone made of LAVA. I didn't read many fantastic four issues yes, but i remember a what if of venom with Reed and he was not strething and grabbing the symbyontes

here is him grabbing Ben with a symbyonte.

here is him (the marker but still him) throwing down with sunspot who can can be as hot as the sun (not a grab but close enough)

Him trying to grab Susan as malice and her easily dealing with him due to her force fields(him grabbing Susan happens alot. , with the next page even having him say he underestimated her which why he would think its a good idea and why it happens so often.

and of course he is always grabbing at doom who constantly builds in counter measures and has magic




so in short, him grabbing none physical threats and getting hurt because of it is totally in character.

You are literally saying he can't grab things by stretching his arm and throwing, by example, like this is something that never came up in his arsenal before, ridiculous

No idea what this even means.

[Syegfryed]

My read on that entire scene (basically all of Illuminati world) was that this was a group of Arrogant, Overconfident Heroes who were effectively sundowning.

Its not that they are overconfident, its that they are incompetent as fuck, they didn't put a fight, outside Captain marvel a bit, and she just die by a statue falling into her, lame.

My point still stand, movie didn't do justice to the characters.

I understand what they went to, they wanted to make Wanda kill then with their own stuff, stretching the stretch man to dead, making the dude who kills with his voice kill himself with his own voice, kill carter with her own shield, and kill Charles one, if not the msot powerful mutant in the mind field, with her mind. it was indeed, a good premise, but it was poorly done. Just made then look like trash and Wanda being overly selective of who she kills and who she doesn't.

No idea what this even means.

Im saying he does other things than just stretch and grab, you are trying to prove he does not, with out of context examples, for some reason.