[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[MrLachyG]

That's not what He Who Remains said. At the beginning they were crossing over into each others freely, trading information, technology, etc to mutual benefit.

that doesn't mean the chance of an incursion was 0, just they got lucky. an incursion isn't guaranteed, but it can happen.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

that doesn't mean the chance of an incursion was 0, just they got lucky. an incursion isn't guaranteed, but it can happen.

Or they have technology that allows them to cross over without risking incursions. It wasn't just one or two chance meetings...they had a full on multiversal war... it would be pretty spectacular luck to not cause any incursions during all of that.

[Surfd]

That's not what He Who Remains said. At the beginning they were crossing over into each others freely, trading information, technology, etc to mutual benefit.

Right. "At the beginning". He isn't telling them everything. Heck, if you really want to nitpick, it's worth pointing out that the concept of "Incursions" isn't even introduced until after Loki. They are never mentioned by He Who Remains (and considering how important they should be, it's hard to imagine him not mentioning them by accident).

It's pretty firmly established in information we get after Loki that incursions are caused by interference with one universe by something that doesn't "belong" there. Multiverse of Madness pretty clearly indicates that the longer someone from one universe is in another universe, the higher the risk of an Incursion happening. Not only length of interference, but also magnitude can play a part: Massively altering your universe based on information obtained in a different one could set off an incursion. Heck, they don't have to even physically be there, as Wanda's use of dream walking to possess an alternate version of herself was enough to potentially set off an incursion, and we know that Illuminativerse Strange caused one with dreamwalking.

Basically, universes are inherently NOT supposed to come in contact with other universes, or bad things happen.

Or they have technology that allows them to cross over without risking incursions. It wasn't just one or two chance meetings...they had a full on multiversal war... it would be pretty spectacular luck to not cause any incursions during all of that.

They addressed that in Quantummania. When Kang is explaining how everything ends to Janet, there's a direct quote regarding the multiversal war where he says he saw "endless incursions".



All evidence we have in the MCU so far indicates that extensive direct contact between two universes basically ALWAYS ends in an Incursion. Only if you are either isolated from time (the Quantum Realm / End of Time sanctuary) or if you are in a completely separate Dimension (like Dormamu's home realm) are you safe for cross universe meetings or such, because those places are "outside" of reality.

If basically the only way to prevent an incursion is to hope you never encounter another universe, then it not exactly that hard to assume that a good chunk of the reason almost all Kang's become conquerors is because it probably very quickly became apparent that if it's basically impossible to successfully "cross the streams" so to speak, then either you start crushing other universes, or some other universe with a more pro-active Kang will inevitably crush yours.

[Endus]

The problem with that is that, according to the Ms. Marvel directors, Kamala never blipped... which goes against your "Blip thing" scenario.

My inner conception was an idea that the X-gene was already present, but almost entirely dormant, in the human population. A handful active pre-Blip. And then the Blip happened, and everyone who came back did so with their X-gene active, for whatever reason. Leaves room for new Mutants in a post-Blip world because half the planet's X-genes are still inactive, too, and they may all be active moving forward. The Infinity Gauntlet rewrites reality itself, and we're talking just a single planet's population, and you could even argue Tony's inner desire for protecting the Earth subconsciously (same desire that drove him to create Ultron, or support the Sokovia Accords) was interpreted by the Infinity Stones as part of his wish when he Snapped, leading to the Stones activating the X-gene to create new protectors for the Earth (and villains, because Tony's desire in this always had secondary effects).

That's not what He Who Remains said. At the beginning they were crossing over into each others freely, trading information, technology, etc to mutual benefit.

Honestly, I think it's a mistake to take anything a Kang says in anything but outright victory as necessarily true in and of itself. He Who Remains was telling the Lokis what they needed to hear for them to do what he wanted them to do (kill him and break the system). Telling them too much about the risks would work against that, and the result of endless incursions would inevitably be something like his Sacred Timeline; the last timeline left after all others are destroyed whether by incursion (risky) or elimination of variance (safer).

[TirielWoW]

Wandavision's all about grief (prequelling her mental break in Multiverse)

Only thing I would say about this is that Wandavision prequeled nothing. When I went to watch Multiverse of Madness, one of the things that bothered me the most was that it was as if Wandavision, and the lessons that Wanda learned in that series, didn't even happen. And this is backed up by the fact that the director literally said he didn't watch the series at all and made the movie without considering it. The only thing they pulled from the series was the damn book. They ignored literally everything else that happened.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Honestly, I think it's a mistake to take anything a Kang says in anything but outright victory as necessarily true in and of itself. He Who Remains was telling the Lokis what they needed to hear for them to do what he wanted them to do (kill him and break the system). Telling them too much about the risks would work against that, and the result of endless incursions would inevitably be something like his Sacred Timeline; the last timeline left after all others are destroyed whether by incursion (risky) or elimination of variance (safer).

I think that's reading too far into things. If all he wanted was for them to kill him...he wouldn't have had to tell them anything at all. They went there specifically for that purpose. And he does specifically tell them that if they do kill him...the end result will inevitably be something like the Sacred Timeline



He lays it out pretty simple. Either they kill him and set off another multiversal war...which eventually ends up with another version of him creating a new sacred timeline...or they take over and maintain his sacred timeline.

[InfiniteCharger]

God, of all the possible entries for the X-men into the MCU, I absolutely 100% hope it has nothing to do with the Multiverse. We don't need the X-men already-established, and if they came in from another universe, they'd be an active threat of incursion, and Strange would be booting them all home anyway. The line they've established is that America Chavez is the only person who can safely travel to other universes, and anyone else is putting universes at risk; voiding that for the entire X-men is just unreasonable.

I agree that the X-Men should be a separate MCU franchise all together. The cinematic universe can never do the X-Men as they were in the comics. But one way they could do it is by having a separate universe where the X-Men and other characters exist and just tell that story as a reboot of the Fox X-Men.

As for incursions, the idea of incursions had nothing to do with individuals going to multiple universes and in the MCU Dr Strange and the Sorceror Supreme could always do it (before they soft retconned it). Incursions were originally something caused by the Beyonders who wanted to destroy the multiverse in the New Avengers "Time Runs Out" story line from 2015. Kang historically had nothing to do with it either and was just going around traveling through time making timelines he basically conquered. Other timelines remained as they were and the prime comics timeline with the Avengers was his main nemesis, because he never could defeat them (which is odd because he could have traveled to the stone age and just took over then). So basically they are trying to remake the time runs out storyline with this upcoming secret wars movie without many of the key characters and players that were part of it, either the original secret wars battleworld or the time runs out secret wars.

[Orby]

I agree that the X-Men should be a separate MCU franchise all together. The cinematic universe can never do the X-Men as they were in the comics. But one way they could do it is by having a separate universe where the X-Men and other characters exist and just tell that story as a reboot of the Fox X-Men.
.

I have always been an X-Men fan when it comes to Marvel, when I was growing up I only collected the X-Men side of Marvel (except for Spider-Man, he was the exception). The X-Men side of Marvel is like at least 40% if not more of the Marvel universe in the comics anyway. At least now. You really do need to keep them separate from the other MCU. Outside of Deadpool, I don't really wanna see anyone else from the MCU really crossover into X-Men that would actually help it.

X-Men has its own world building it accomplish. Even just to start X-Men off in the MCU would be weird, becuase where do they come from, and do you do a multiverse thing.

Unless its going to be a thing where they have always been there and we haven't noticed, and Xavier has been doing some Men in Black levels of mind wiping on the population to make people forget :P

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I have always been an X-Men fan when it comes to Marvel, when I was growing up I only collected the X-Men side of Marvel (except for Spider-Man, he was the exception). The X-Men side of Marvel is like at least 40% if not more of the Marvel universe in the comics anyway. At least now. You really do need to keep them separate from the other MCU. Outside of Deadpool, I don't really wanna see anyone else from the MCU really crossover into X-Men that would actually help it.

For myself, I've always partcularly liked the Spider-Man/X-Men crossovers in the comics. Spider-man has pretty much always occupied a position in between the Avengers and The X-Men in terms of public acceptance... which gives him a unique perspective of being able to empathize and sympathize with the difficulties the X-Men face while also still being able to appreciate how much better he has it. It's basically an in-universe equivalent of being able to "check his privelege" that even good and honorable people like Captain America tend to overlook (something which the Avengers have been called out for by Cyclops on a few occassions).




I've also just always like the clear difference in the public perception of the Avengers and the X-Men... even with characters that have been members of both teams (ex: Beast, Wolverine)...just being an Avenger takes at least some of the stink off of being a "mutie"...but only as long as they remain in the company of other Avengers. It has real vibes of "He's one of the good ones"

I'm fine if the X-Men mostly stick to handling Mutant problems like they do in the comics...but I would really like to see them show up for the "all hands on deck" situations in the MCU.

[Immitis]

For myself, I've always partcularly liked the Spider-Man/X-Men crossovers in the comics. Spider-man has pretty much always occupied a position in between the Avengers and The X-Men in terms of public acceptance... which gives him a unique perspective of being able to empathize and sympathize with the difficulties the X-Men face while also still being able to appreciate how much better he has it. It's basically an in-universe equivalent of being able to "check his privelege" that even good and honorable people like Captain America tend to overlook (something which the Avengers have been called out for by Cyclops on a few occassions).
I've also just always like the clear difference in the public perception of the Avengers and the X-Men... even with characters that have been members of both teams (ex: Beast, Wolverine)...just being an Avenger takes at least some of the stink off of being a "mutie"...but only as long as they remain in the company of other Avengers. It has real vibes of "He's one of the good ones"

I'm fine if the X-Men mostly stick to handling Mutant problems like they do in the comics...but I would really like to see them show up for the "all hands on deck" situations in the MCU.

as a kid i remember seeing scott as just a boyscout but some of the more recent stuff theyve done with him has really made me come around to his character and i feel like i kind of get him now in a way i didnt when i was just a kid

[Orby]

I've also just always like the clear difference in the public perception of the Avengers and the X-Men... even with characters that have been members of both teams (ex: Beast, Wolverine)...just being an Avenger takes at least some of the stink off of being a "mutie"...but only as long as they remain in the company of other Avengers. It has real vibes of "He's one of the good ones"

I'm fine if the X-Men mostly stick to handling Mutant problems like they do in the comics...but I would really like to see them show up for the "all hands on deck" situations in the MCU.

Its because the X-Men have such a bigger world building within the universe of Marvel, anti mutant hysteria, the sentinels, mutant registrations, fanatical religious groups, there's a world there where the X-Men have always felt really cool as its own island. I always thought if you took the X-Men out of Marvel and gave them there own universe without the rest of the Marvel universe not much would change. It still works.

If they had to show up in a crossover, it would have to be a long way down the line. I want Marvel/Disney to really work on the Mutant side of things and allow that to build and develop for a while

as a kid i remember seeing scott as just a boyscout but some of the more recent stuff theyve done with him has really made me come around to his character and i feel like i kind of get him now in a way i didnt when i was just a kid

Scott became a massive asshole, which is kinda understandable, here's a guy who fell in line for most of his time with the X-Men hoping to fulfil that dream and in the end he is just like 'fuck it I tried, now let's do it my way'. Which is the kinda character development I liked.

Sad I cannot say the same to how they treated Beast over the years

[Orby]

- - - Updated - - -


I need to go back and read some Beast stuff. Seems he got into some really shady shit.

I miss the days of the happy loveable blue furball who recited from Shakespeare. Since, I would say Grant Morrisons run (?), in the early 2000's Beasts attitude has slowly evolved as much as his mutation the guys become more cynical, stoic and brooding, then later on he became just plain evil at times. His latest run makes you wonder if Beast is even the same character., While Scott becoming an asshole generally evolved into a more positive reasoning and understanding, Beasts' change just boggles my mind. To a point where its going to be hard for them to redeem the guy now. They have made Dark Beast look morally good in comparison lol

[Endus]

I miss the days of the happy loveable blue furball who recited from Shakespeare. Since, I would say Grant Morrisons run (?), in the early 2000's Beasts attitude has slowly evolved as much as his mutation the guys become more cynical, stoic and brooding, then later on he became just plain evil at times. His latest run makes you wonder if Beast is even the same character., While Scott becoming an asshole generally evolved into a more positive reasoning and understanding, Beasts' change just boggles my mind. To a point where its going to be hard for them to redeem the guy now. They have made Dark Beast look morally good in comparison lol

Not all character development is in a positive direction. I actually like the arc Beast's on, it raises questions like "when do your friends and allies step in to say WTF" and so on. Also, "how far is too far if the alternative is your own people's genocide" and such.

[Shadowferal]

Hmf...used to love the X-Men. They went from okay to good, to damed good, climaxing epically with the Dark Phoenix saga.

Then it all drifted terribly into some of the worst tripe when compared to its earlier stuff.

[Orby]

Not all character development is in a positive direction. I actually like the arc Beast's on, it raises questions like "when do your friends and allies step in to say WTF" and so on. Also, "how far is too far if the alternative is your own people's genocide" and such.

I mean from a narrative perspective it can make sense if it was intentional, and I doubt Marvel were playing a 20 year long game. and it creates drama among the team which has always been one of my favourite things about X-Men. But as a personal thought I am just not a fan of the character direction when I consider where he was to who he is now. Had this change in personality been given to any other person, like Angel for example, I might be more included to be okay with it, especially as angel is in constant state of dual personality, but if Beast it just seems very sad to see.

[Shadowferal]

[Immitis]

I mean from a narrative perspective it can make sense if it was intentional, and I doubt Marvel were playing a 20 year long game. and it creates drama among the team which has always been one of my favourite things about X-Men. But as a personal thought I am just not a fan of the character direction when I consider where he was to who he is now. Had this change in personality been given to any other person, like Angel for example, I might be more included to be okay with it, especially as angel is in constant state of dual personality, but if Beast it just seems very sad to see.

yeah i prefer beast to be like the wise uncle of the group, not a war criminal

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not all character development is in a positive direction. I actually like the arc Beast's on, it raises questions like "when do your friends and allies step in to say WTF" and so on. Also, "how far is too far if the alternative is your own people's genocide" and such.

Beast doesn’t really feel like he’s even trying to prevent genocide at this point he’s oh some mr sinister dominance shit even experimenting on other mutants in a secret space lab for seemingly no reason.

[Northern Goblin]

Ok, for those who've seen GOTG 3

After Creep ends in the opener, there's a sliver of a song that plays as Kraglin practices with the arrow, that has organ and a guitar in it. It quickly cuts short when Nebula gets impaled by said arrow.

What is that song?

[MrLachyG]

Ok, for those who've seen GOTG 3

After Creep ends in the opener, there's a sliver of a song that plays as Kraglin practices with the arrow, that has organ and a guitar in it. It quickly cuts short when Nebula gets impaled by said arrow.

What is that song?

I’d need to re-watch it, when’s it on D+