[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Syegfryed]

That's . . . not a positive framing of yourself. The same nonsense is being tossed around by Pixar's newest film, Turning Red. Which is fantastic. But apparently, empathizing with a Chinese-Canadian teen girl (or with Kamala Khan, a Muslim-American; I haven't read the comics and couldn't tell you her specific ethnicity but I know she's Muslim) is too big an ask for some people, who probably had no problem empathizing with a literal cowboy doll or an anthropomorphic race car in a world populated only by intelligent vehicles..

there is different levels to epathize, like when you will, usually, empathize more with your brother, than your cousin, or your cousin rather than a total strange.

It rly depends on how much you can pick things that are more close to your general view, or things you already are familiar, people compared to peter parker, usually, we can say a good chunk of comic fans are male, nerds who get bullied in the school, or had some issues with their life, don't have a mother and a father, so this is more realisable and easier to empathize.

Some other things are less reliable by the majority, i think her desire to be a super hero is reliable, to some extend, if marvel can pull out more themes to make people relate, like, family problems, those always work( and it seems like they are going for that too), it will be more easier to relate

i totally understand beieng more focused on the younger audience, i think is good to have it, especially when we are getting moon knight who is focused to the more old folk.

[Endus]

there is different levels to epathize, like when you will, usually, empathize more with your brother, than your cousin, or your cousin rather than a total strange.

It rly depends on how much you can pick things that are more close to your general view, or things you already are familiar, people compared to peter parker, usually, we can say a good chunk of comic fans are male, nerds who get bullied in the school, or had some issues with their life, don't have a mother and a father, so this is more realisable and easier to empathize.

Some other things are less reliable by the majority, i think her desire to be a super hero is reliable, to some extend, if marvel can pull out more themes to make people relate, like, family problems, those always work( and it seems like they are going for that too), it will be more easier to relate

i totally understand beieng more focused on the younger audience, i think is good to have it, especially when we are getting moon knight who is focused to the more old folk.

The very concept of empathy is defined by one's ability to cross those divides and feel for those different from yourself, to recognize them as individuals and feel their pain and joy to at least some degree yourself.

All you're really saying is some people lack empathy, or refuse to feel empathy for those "too different" from themselves. And that's a character flaw, dude. It isn't something anyone should be happy to find out about themselves.

[Aurrora]

I don't think they are holding back on "stretching powers" because they think it would look bad. I think it's more likely they are keeping those powers reserved for someone else...

I'd say it's both, to get the stretching powers to look good it's going to require a much higher budget than what they're spending on Ms. Marvel I'd bet.

[Syegfryed]

The very concept of empathy is defined by one's ability to cross those divides and feel for those different from yourself, to recognize them as individuals and feel their pain and joy to at least some degree yourself.

All you're really saying is some people lack empathy, or refuse to feel empathy for those "too different" from themselves. And that's a character flaw, dude. It isn't something anyone should be happy to find out about themselves.

No, im saying its easy to emphasize or relate to, things that are close to yourself, instead you went on a tangent with a tentative to attack the person.

Not that im surprised, its rly on brand.

[Endus]

No, im saying its easy to emphasize or relate to, things that are close to yourself, instead you went on a tangent with a tentative to attack the person.

Not that im surprised, its rly on brand.

And yet, nobody was talking about how they "couldn't relate" to Lightning McQueen, the anthropomorphic race car.
Nobody was talking about how they "couldn't relate" to Wall-E, the robot.
Or the monsters in Monsters Inc.
The toys in Toy Story, even the ones like Mr. Potato Head who's distinctly nonhuman.

And that's just sticking to Pixar movies, bouncing off the comparable ruckus being raised about the new one, Turning Red, where this same non-argument gets raised.

Empathy is easy. If you're finding reasons to explain why you're choosing not to relate to a character, you're saying a hell of a lot more about you than you are the narrative you're complaining about.

This whole "they have to be similar to you" is nonsense. It's not how empathy works. That's why I'm being dismissive about it. It's propped up as a shield to defend bigotry. If you're struggling to identify with the plight of a character because she's a girl, or religiously or ethnically different from you, then what you're describing isn't a story that people should understand couldn't appeal to you, what you're describing is your personal small-mindedness and intolerance.

And I don't consider the "teen" thing a factor at all, because you either are a teen, were a teen, or can expect to become a teen, so it's pretty darned relevant. It's fine to not enjoy content aimed at a teen audience, but not because you can't relate to it. You can. You choose not to, for some reason.

[Syegfryed]

And yet, nobody was talking about how they "couldn't relate" to Lightning McQueen, the anthropomorphic race car.
Nobody was talking about how they "couldn't relate" to Wall-E, the robot.
Or the monsters in Monsters Inc.
The toys in Toy Story, even the ones like Mr. Potato Head who's distinctly nonhuman.

You mean all those things with common and overused human emotions? like toy story is all about friendship and abandon, a lot of people can relate with those simple things. Lmao

Empathy is easy. If you're finding reasons to explain why you're choosing not to relate to a character, you're saying a hell of a lot more about you than you are the narrative you're complaining about.

Are into something? cause i literally didn't do this, im not "finding reasons to explain why I am choosing not to relate to a character", im saying there is characters that are easier to relate than others, and its the level of relation rly is variable from person to person. I could say i personally, can relate more with her than things like Loki, or Steven Rogers.

The only nonsense being said here is from your part, by saying im being small-mindedness and intolerant, you are the only one "smal-minded" ready to spit shit if someone does not share your view, take a set back and breath a little .

If you rly don't suffer religion or ethnical persecution you don't rly relate the same way as people who suffer it, simple.

[Endus]

You mean all those things with common and overused human emotions? like toy story is all about friendship and abandon, a lot of people can relate with those simple things. Lmao

Which is my point. What exactly have you been trying to argue, then?

The only nonsense being said here is from your part, by saying im being small-mindedness and intolerant, you are the only one "smal-minded" ready to spit shit if someone does not share your view, take a set back and breath a little .

I didn't call you small-minded and intolerant. I said someone behaving the way you described was. You're confusing the hypothetical person we were talking about with yourself, and it's baffling why you'd do so.

[Syegfryed]

Which is my point. What exactly have you been trying to argue, then?

That is easier to relate with things close to your own bubble, its pretty simple. Its even easier if its something "universal" or have a big niche.

Like i said, someone who suffered bullying in school, might be easier to relate to Peter Parker than Steve rogers, Captain marvel or other super-heroes. Someone who lived in a catholic household may relate more to Matt Murdock and his struggle with Catholicism than the Punisher.

Not everyone will easily be draw into Miss Marvel that is a more niche focus.

I didn't call you small-minded and intolerant. I said someone behaving the way you described was. You're confusing the hypothetical person we were talking about with yourself, and it's baffling why you'd do so.

Then you should work better with your deliver fam, because we are talking witch other and you start throwing "you" willy nilly, you are referencing to me.

Might as well use 'someone" instead of 'you"", if you are trying to strawman a hypothetical person

[Ivanstone]

Kamala is Pakistani-American. In New Jersey.

I don't see how this isn't relatable.

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Someone who lived in a catholic household may relate more to Matt Murdock and his struggle with Catholicism than the Punisher.

The Punisher is also a Catholic who also struggles with his religion. He even confesses his murders to a priest.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

[
Like i said, someone who suffered bullying in school, might be easier to relate to Peter Parker than Steve rogers, Captain marvel or other super-heroes. Someone who lived in a catholic household may relate more to Matt Murdock and his struggle with Catholicism than the Punisher.

Not everyone will easily be draw into Miss Marvel that is a more niche focus.

Interesting that I've never heard anyone say they struggle to relate to Matt Murdock though.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say it's both, to get the stretching powers to look good it's going to require a much higher budget than what they're spending on Ms. Marvel I'd bet.

Meh, The Flash managed to do Elongated Man reasonably well (not great...but I've seen worse) and that's got a much smaller per episode budget (~$2.5m) than anything on D+ (~$25m).

[Shadowferal]

I don't think they are holding back on "stretching powers" because they think it would look bad. I think it's more likely they are keeping those powers reserved for someone else...

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

[snip]

I think a single picture of Mr. Fantastic would have sufficed...but yes, that was the "someone else" I was referring to.

[Syegfryed]

Interesting that I've never heard anyone say they struggle to relate to Matt Murdock though.

i said they can relate to Matt struggle. Not that someone may have struggle in relating with MAtt.

The Punisher is also a Catholic who also struggles with his religion. He even confesses his murders to a priest.

Yeah, but the average person is not going out there actively killing people, neither want that, they are more drawn to Matt's way.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

i said they can relate to Matt struggle. Not that someone may have struggle in relating with MAtt.

So no one would ever have trouble relating to Matt Murdock then? So what makes it harder to relate to Kamala Khan then?

Yeah, but the average person is not going out there actively killing people, neither want that, they are more drawn to Matt's way.

The "average person" isn't drawn in either direction. I don't know anyone that dresses up in a devil costume and beats people up... and then represents them in court the next day.

Frank Castle is actually probably one of the easiest people to relate with. It's easy to understand how watching your family get murdered just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time might push a guy over the edge.

[Syegfryed]

So no one would ever have trouble relating to Matt Murdock then? So what makes it harder to relate to Kamala Khan then?

????? who said no one will have it? thats some stretching.

The "average person" isn't drawn in either direction. I don't know anyone that dresses up in a devil costume and beats people up... and then represents them in court the next day.

you don't need to dress up in a devil costume to relate with matt and his doubts about his religion, thats some shit appeal to ridicule fallacy here.

Frank Castle is actually probably one of the easiest people to relate with. It's easy to understand how watching your family get murdered just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time might push a guy over the edge.

Yeah that happen to everyone, and, by your own argument, they get out in the night and kill bandits.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

????? who said no one will have it? thats some stretching.

You said people could relate to MAtt's struggles. I'm asking why they can't relate to Kamala's.

you don't need to dress up in a devil costume to relate with matt and his doubts about his religion, thats some shit appeal to ridicule fallacy here.

Sure, but you brought up murdering people and said people would be more likely to "go Matt's way". Matt's Way is to beat up criminals. Franks way is to kill them.

Punisher also has had his struggles with religion. So, that much applies to both of them.

Yeah that happen to everyone, and, by your own argument, they get out in the night and kill bandits.

I didn't say that. I said they could understand how the grief of losing one's family could drive someone ever the edge. Show me a father that hasn't looked at his baby and thought that he would murder anyone that tried to hurt that child. It doesn't mean they would actually follow through on it... but they had the thought.

[Syegfryed]

You said people could relate to MAtt's struggles. I'm asking why they can't relate to Kamala's.

Why are you asking me that if i never said they can't? literally a strawman

Sure, but you brought up murdering people and said people would be more likely to "go Matt's way". Matt's Way is to beat up criminals. Franks way is to kill them.

Punisher also has had his struggles with religion. So, that much applies to both of them.

Punisher stories does not revolves around his struggles with religion like they do in Daredevil, so, clearly there is a difference.

I didn't say that. I said they could understand how the grief of losing one's family could drive someone ever the edge. Show me a father that hasn't looked at his baby and thought that he would murder anyone that tried to hurt that child. It doesn't mean they would actually follow through on it... but they had the thought.

Right, but then again, i never said they can't relate with Frank, Khamala or any other hero, i said some heroes are easier to relate than others, and deeply change based around everyone else bubble.

You are trying to attack a point i never made(that people can't relate with her or Frank).

[Ivanstone]

Yeah, but the average person is not going out there actively killing people, neither want that, they are more drawn to Matt's way.

The average person isn't going to get up in the middle of the night to kick the shit out of people either.

Most super heroes aren't especially relatable. Vigilantism requires a particular mind set most people don't have and its a mind set you shouldn't want.

Ms Marvel may be the single most relatable super hero ever because prior to getting her powers she was just a nerd playing RPG's and obsessing over her favourite heroes over the internet. Which probably describes 99% of the posters in this thread.

[Shadowferal]

After that "penny and dime" scene in the cemetery in Daredevil with the Punisher...we all felt gut punched.

[Endus]

Why are you asking me that if i never said they can't? literally a strawman

No, it's you jumping into the middle of an ongoing discussion and pretending it's all about you and the prior context of that discussion does not exist;

She's not a woman, she's a teen girl. I'm not interested in watching that, most men over the age of 25 won't be interested in watching that, because it's not relatable. And that's fine, they are aiming for a younger audience, most like the CW audience.

I've removed the attribution so it won't ping the user unnecessarily, but it's post #12639 near the bottom of page 632 of the thread in standard settings. I also added the emphasis.

That's what started this whole discussion about "relatability". Someone saying they can't empathize because Kamala Khan is a teen girl. When people empathize with far more widely varied characters all the time.

So yeah; people were saying that, it's what this portion of the thread was discussing, until you shoved your head in here on that side of the discussion and then tried to pretend that initiating post never existed.