[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Darththeo]

Woke means nothing at this point. Woke is used anytime a show has a non-white, non-male, non-straight lead. What does it even mean to go "Woke."

People talk about the Go Woke Go Broke protests, but at most those companies see a temporary dip and then people stop caring about the Go Woke Go broke protest and start shopping the product again or people eventually consume the "woke" show/movie.

[Orby]

Episode 3: That Madelyne Pryor reveal... oh me oh my. I know its not her comic attire exactly but still...

also Morph got some laughs from me this episode xD

[Fencers]

Anti-wokers just can't accept reality.

You mean white, male bigots. Almost no overlap of other groups falls into this characterization or labeling.

There are not a lot of YouTube videos where African American or Hispanic women are ranting on "woke" media. I am using "woke" here in the derivative pejorative of the actual term's meaning and usage.

In the past 7 years, we have had less than 1% non-white, non-males fill out any social or public opinion survey using the term woke when asked their thoughts on media. We test 600-900 people weekly in a minimum of 4 markets. Seven years.

[Syegfryed]

There are not a lot of YouTube videos where African American or Hispanic women are ranting on "woke" media. I am using "woke" here in the derivative pejorative of the actual term's meaning and usage.

Thats most because these are not the demographic group that consume this kind of media, to rant about it, it is simple as that. Its more common to find videos with african american and hispanic man(which is very reductive cause that only count USA, and we have a whole world of people) talking about "woke media" nowadays, cause hqs/marvel and that kind of stuff is more

[Orby]

There are not a lot of YouTube videos where African American or Hispanic women are ranting on "woke" media. I am using "woke" here in the derivative pejorative of the actual term's meaning and usage.

Sadly there are, men and women of colour too. I have seen a few, and watched to see what they are about. Rage bait like this is very profitable I do think people would sacrifice their own dignity and integrity to act dumb (if its even an act) to jump on the 'anti-woke' bandwagon...

Woke means nothing at this point. Woke is used anytime a show has a non-white, non-male, non-straight lead. What does it even mean to go "Woke."

Oh the terms are a hiding slur at this point, cannot say slurs so they use existing terms like 'DEI', 'Woke' or 'CRT', its a giant dog whistle.


Saying things like ' oh look a DEI hire' cos some black dude is on their screen.

they are so past the point of brain rot now that you cannot have any minority on screen now because everything they see is 'woke' or a 'DEI'. To be so broken is truly amazing

[Endus]

Thats most because these are not the demographic group that consume this kind of media, to rant about it, it is simple as that. Its more common to find videos with african american and hispanic man(which is very reductive cause that only count USA, and we have a whole world of people) talking about "woke media" nowadays, cause hqs/marvel and that kind of stuff is more

Literally the only people who complain about "woke media" are bigots. "Woke" is just the latest in a long line of dogwhistles.

All "woke" actually means is "understanding that there are systemic injustices in society and they should be worked against." That's it. The only people who dislike that idea are people who want to support those systemic injustices and keep them going. Bigots.

Same as when they were attacking "CRT". Same as when they attack "DEI". Because they're not just bigots, they're also cowards, who won't come right out and say what they mean because they know the backlash will be immediate.

[Al Gorefiend]

People who complain about their favorite things going woke deserve to have their favorite things no longer interest them.

Go back to Dilbert comics if Marvel is woke to you, always has been.

And in the context of Xmen is hilarious

[Kathandira]

People who complain about their favorite things going woke deserve to have their favorite things no longer interest them.

Go back to Dilbert comics if Marvel is woke to you, always has been.

And in the context of Xmen is hilarious

Started watching X-Men 97 last night. My girl saw the team together and said, "What a diverse group".

I pulled the 'Always has been' card on her.

[exochaft]

All "woke" actually means is "understanding that there are systemic injustices in society and they should be worked against." That's it. The only people who dislike that idea are people who want to support those systemic injustices and keep them going. Bigots.

Except that's not what woke means anymore. Sure, originally, that's what it roughly meant as to indicate people awake to said issues, but the accepted definition has changed... which is a normal occurrence in a non-dead language. Quite often the words end up taking on completely different meanings and context that may even run contrary. Interestingly enough, a lot of terms that are considered slurs weren't originally considered as such, sometimes even being considered positive or generated by the group it supposedly denigrates now. Simply put, words flip meanings all the time, so trying to disparage individuals while knowing that's not how the term is being used/defined is silly and meaningless.

When it comes to the term woke now, it's refers to how the original defined word was used as a grifting tool in many respects; another way to put it is that the intent runs completely contrary to what's being espoused. For example, it's akin to doing something like fighting racism by being racist: you end up twisting the original intent and end up causing the same injustice to occur. Happens quite often and openly with things with in the MCU (though it's rampant within and without the industry), where their concept of diversity and inclusion is anything but. It's a classic example how the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, where the end result is the same but with a different flavor.

Easiest litmus test is to just swap races or genders when it comes to how these supposed non-racist/sexist decisions are made: if it sounds racist/sexist when you swap it, they're both racist/sexist. If one can't see something that blatantly obvious, that's where true racism and sexism is. Obviously this can extend beyond race and gender, but this is just an easy entry level that even children can and do understand. Quite often the defense against such obvious conclusions is that people embrace the bigotry of low expectations or just throw out simple logic, because logic easily refutes the heinousness of what's going on in terms of what's considered woke now. There's quite a bit more to this in terms of how obvious truth gets obfuscated, but that's an insanely long post.

Now, there are people who take the current-day "woke" and take it too far... and those people are just as ignorant as the people who fail to see the the logic behind when the current-day "woke" definition is applied correctly. For example, just because a movie/show has a woman lead doesn't make it automatically woke. However, what would make it woke depends upon how that decision was made, which is how the current day climate plays into things. Unfortunately, a LOT of decisions when it comes to making content in the MCU revolves around using blatantly racist and sexist logic and methods, especially at the expense of what really matters: making a good show that can be enjoyed by the masses. Some of this has to do with the people directly involved (writers/directors/etc.), some of it has to do with company policy/mandates from on high. Doesn't mean all the decisions are made in bad faith, but it's not even refutable that many are because the creatives and executives tell you openly that they're making decisions in very racist/sexist/etc. ways. Heck, they're often proud to say they hate/exclude/choose people based upon their race/sex/etc., it's pretty scary we live in times where people think such talk and behavior is acceptable.

The reality is that most people using the current-day term of "woke" do not want institutionalized racism/sexism/whatever-ism, either (I'll leave exception for fringe elements, although that comes with anything). What they see is that the people supposedly fighting the institutionalized issues (whether it's CRT, DEI, whatever) are just as bad as what they're trying to fix, assuming the issue even exists to begin with. As I alluded to earlier, current-day "woke" is used to point out the grift of people/organizations who say they're fighting against institutionalized racism/sexism/etc. but are just implementing another form of institutionalized racism/sexim to do so, resulting in the same issues with a different flavor. If one cannot see the irony and hypocracy... well, such individuals are just as reprehensible as those who are legitimately in favor of institutionalized racism/sexism/etc. regardless of what form it comes in.

[InfiniteCharger]

First off, "woke" never meant changing fictional characters from one gender to another or one race to another. That is absolute absurd cultural and historical revisionist nonsense.

"Woke" originally meant being awake and aware of the manipulation within media and society that was being used to distort your perception of reality. And much of was reflected in cinema from the 90s with films like "They Live" or "A Scanner Darkly" and was most popularized in "The Matrix" (red pill vs blue pill).





While there are certainly bigots that are against the "woke" agenda, this does not mean that agenda doesn't exist. For the most part today the only thing the "woke" agenda means is corporations blatantly promoting gender, race or sexuality as part of changing stories, characters and so forth. In fact it epitomizes everything the original meaning of "woke" was exposing. And that explicitly applies to IP or franchises that have been around for many decades as somehow now being "problematic" and needing to be changed. So at that point why add a new coat of paint to something that is problematic? Why not create something new from different people of different backgrounds with different ideas? Black people, women and other people are still having a hard time getting new stories that they have created onto the big screen because corporations don't feel they will be profitable. So instead of doing that these corporations simply will try an reboot older franchises with a new gimmick of changing characters and making them more "diverse". But at the end of the day it is still just a reboot and offers nothing new and certainly does not represent "empowerment" for artists and creators who are not white who have their own stories and ideas that they want to tell...... And no, calling out this lazy kind of formula as superficial and fake is not simply for "bigots" because obviously black people or women are not the ones who are going to get any share of the profits if these things do make money. And it is annoying when all these corporations are still primarily run by white men, yet they constantly run around preaching about "diversity", but only in fictional worlds, not the real world. If you care about diversity so much, then give up your position to someone who is diverse then. Or, even better, open up the books and put your money where your mouth is based on the record of hiring and promotion in the company. But these corporations love symbolism over substance.

Anyway, as someone else said, just making something diverse doesn't mean it will be good or it will be popular. Captain America 4 has been screening poorly for a while now and is undergoing another round of reshoots. And the underlying theme of the movie is all about passing down mantles as part of diversity which totally ignores the fact that what makes these characters iconic cannot be passed down. Not to mention what made the Avengers work is the inherent diversity in character and personality across all the heroes in the team and that is now gone and cannot be replaced with just Sam Wilson Captain America.

Brave New World’s full cast hasn’t been officially revealed, but Mackie confirmed neither Bucky or Zemo will be popping up here. (Bucky will be featured in Thunderbolts while Zemo’s next appearance is a big question mark.) Since FalconSoldier is a fairly key part of Sam’s evolution, he’s admitted headlining a movie without those two doesn’t entirely feel the same. “When they decided to go back to the movies, it is what it is, but I don’t have my friends anymore. It kind of dampens it a little bit.”

Major supporting characters often pop in and out of the MCU a somewhat regular cadence—see Hawkeye and Jane Foster as two of many examples. There are some, though, who feel like they should be around more often than they are, and their absence often highlights how much a particular entry isn’t entirely working. There’ll be some familiar faces in Brave New World (like Danny Ramirez’s Joaquin Torres), but given how FalconSoldier ended with the promise of Sam and Bucky as a dynamic duo, it’s a bit of a shame we won’t get to see that play out on the big screen.

https://gizmodo.com/captain-america-...kie-1851360540

In just over a year’s time, Marvel Cinematic Universe fans will reunite with Captain America after four years away. Except this time, there has been a shakeup, and as the fourth entry in the Captain America franchise heads into reshoots, one actor has spoken out about replacing Anthony Mackie.

Mackie returned to the fray in Disney+’s second MCU TV show, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, alongside fellow Captain America franchise actor Sebastian Stan (Bucky Barnes/Winter Soldier). It was in this six-part espionage thriller created by Malcolm Spellman and directed by Kari Skogland that Mackie’s Sam Wilson finally relinquished his Falcon persona and fully stepped into being the new Captain America.

It wasn’t much after the finale of Spellman’s show that the creator was announced to be developing a fourth Captain America movie with writer Dalan Musson. Julius Onah is directing, with the cast being rounded out with Carl Lumbly as Isaiah Bradley, Shira Haas as Sabra, Tim Blake Nelson as Samuel Sterns/Leader, and Liv Tyler as Betty Ross. Harrison Ford replaces the late William Hurt as Thaddeus “Thunderbolt” Ross and will seemingly become the Red Hulk during the film. And then there’s Danny Ramirez as Joaquin Torres– and the new Falcon in the MCU.

https://insidethemagic.net/2024/02/c...ny-mackie-th1/



And at the end of the day, everybody knows all of these characters were created by white men to begin with. So it is silly to think that somehow making these superficial changes to the characters are somehow erasing that history and is just beyond insane. Not to mention the idea that they can move away from the iconic stories that made these characters popular to begin with among diverse audiences is also insane.

[s_bushido]

logic easily refutes the heinousness of what's going on in terms of what's considered woke now

Today I learned that casting a minority actor to play a character who was originally a straight white guy, when literally every character was a straight white guy, is "heinous." lol...

The reality is that most people using the current-day term of "woke" do not want institutionalized racism/sexism/whatever-ism, either (I'll leave exception for fringe elements, although that comes with anything). What they see is that the people supposedly fighting the institutionalized issues (whether it's CRT, DEI, whatever) are just as bad as what they're trying to fix, assuming the issue even exists to begin with.

You saved the best for the end. Yes, people trying to add more representation to their products are [checks notes] the same as the people who refuse to accept that a black person is anything other than a "affirmative action/diversity/woke/CRT/DEI hire" because they couldn't possibly be qualified for the role. Delusional.

[Endus]

Except that's not what woke means anymore.

Wrong. That's what it's always meant. And still means.

When it comes to the term woke now, it's refers to how the original defined word was used as a grifting tool in many respects; another way to put it is that the intent runs completely contrary to what's being espoused. For example, it's akin to doing something like fighting racism by being racist: you end up twisting the original intent and end up causing the same injustice to occur. Happens quite often and openly with things with in the MCU (though it's rampant within and without the industry), where their concept of diversity and inclusion is anything but. It's a classic example how the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, where the end result is the same but with a different flavor.

Reverse racism isn't a thing.

Easiest litmus test is to just swap races or genders when it comes to how these supposed non-racist/sexist decisions are made: if it sounds racist/sexist when you swap it, they're both racist/sexist.

This only works as an argument if you pretend, dishonestly, that there are no power dynamics and systemic prejudices in society. Since there are, you're talking out your own ass.

For example, DEI programs to ensure more inclusiveness in hiring aren't racist. But preferentially hiring white people exclusively obviously is.

Now, there are people who take the current-day "woke" and take it too far... and those people are just as ignorant as the people who fail to see the the logic behind when the current-day "woke" definition is applied correctly. For example, just because a movie/show has a woman lead doesn't make it automatically woke. However, what would make it woke depends upon how that decision was made, which is how the current day climate plays into things. Unfortunately, a LOT of decisions when it comes to making content in the MCU revolves around using blatantly racist and sexist logic and methods, especially at the expense of what really matters: making a good show that can be enjoyed by the masses. Some of this has to do with the people directly involved (writers/directors/etc.), some of it has to do with company policy/mandates from on high. Doesn't mean all the decisions are made in bad faith, but it's not even refutable that many are because the creatives and executives tell you openly that they're making decisions in very racist/sexist/etc. ways. Heck, they're often proud to say they hate/exclude/choose people based upon their race/sex/etc., it's pretty scary we live in times where people think such talk and behavior is acceptable.

You're just confirming my original position at this point. The MCU casting has not in any way been racist, and if it's been sexist, it's been in largely denying women title roles in films. To date, the only title female heroes are Captain Marvel, Black Widow, and the Wasp (but only in a shared capacity for her). This is just observable fact.

The reality is that most people using the current-day term of "woke" do not want institutionalized racism/sexism/whatever-ism, either (I'll leave exception for fringe elements, although that comes with anything). What they see is that the people supposedly fighting the institutionalized issues (whether it's CRT, DEI, whatever) are just as bad as what they're trying to fix, assuming the issue even exists to begin with. As I alluded to earlier, current-day "woke" is used to point out the grift of people/organizations who say they're fighting against institutionalized racism/sexism/etc. but are just implementing another form of institutionalized racism/sexim to do so, resulting in the same issues with a different flavor. If one cannot see the irony and hypocracy... well, such individuals are just as reprehensible as those who are legitimately in favor of institutionalized racism/sexism/etc. regardless of what form it comes in.

There is no "another form of institutionalized racism/sexism" at play. Male actors aren't being denied equitable casting/representation. Neither are white actors. You're making up fictional nonsense to justify personal prejudices, which was my original point you're trying to contest. All you're doing is proving me right.

- - - Updated - - -

Today I learned that casting a minority actor to play a character who was originally a straight white guy, when literally every character was a straight white guy, is "heinous." lol...

You see, s_bushido, the default casting state is a white dude, so any casting that isn't a white dude for any role is inherently a choice to exclude white people, or men, or white men specifically from that role.

I can't do a /s hard enough here.

[Jotaux]

Reverse racism isn't real because its just plain racism.

[Syegfryed]

Literally the only people who complain about "woke media" are bigots. "Woke" is just the latest in a long line of dogwhistles.

All "woke" actually means is "understanding that there are systemic injustices in society and they should be worked against." That's it. The only people who dislike that idea are people who want to support those systemic injustices and keep them going. Bigots.

Same as when they were attacking "CRT". Same as when they attack "DEI". Because they're not just bigots, they're also cowards, who won't come right out and say what they mean because they know the backlash will be immediate.

We already went pass this Endus. You and me, and everyone here all know you are using the word in a different context from what we are discussing.

You can keep trying to force the old meaning, to demonize people who go against your agenda. But we all know we are talking about the "new meaning"

and don't start saying words meaning don't change over time to mean something else

- - - Updated - - -

Except that's not what woke means anymore. Sure, originally, that's what it roughly meant as to indicate people awake to said issues, but the accepted definition has changed... which is a normal occurrence in a non-dead language. Quite often the words end up taking on completely different meanings and context that may even run contrary.

He already knows that, but he will not accept because it will, somehow i guess, weak his position.

- - - Updated - - -

You saved the best for the end. Yes, people trying to add more representation to their products are [checks notes] the same as the people who refuse to accept that a black person is anything other than a "affirmative action/diversity/woke/CRT/DEI hire" because they couldn't possibly be qualified for the role. Delusional.

Thats because its the truth, the big companies don't care about representation, they care about cheaking boxes, they don't see diverse actors or characters as worthy enough to warrant a spot, so they need to validate by using already established white characters. You ahve stuff like Namor actor saying he would not get the job if they did not made Namor diverse, it was the only reason he was there.

If they truly wanted diversity, they would addapt original black/diverse characters/stories, instead of changing others, because, again, they don't see validation in black/diverse characters. Its similar to how in the past they had to whitewash non-white characters to make movies, "people will not like/accept this character if he isn't white" ->"people will not like/accept a diverse character if he isn't gender/race changed"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If they truly wanted diversity, they would addapt original black/diverse characters/stories, instead of changing others, because, again, they don't see validation in black/diverse characters. Its similar to how in the past they had to whitewash non-white characters to make movies, "people will not like/accept this character if he isn't white" ->"people will not like/accept a diverse character if he isn't gender/race changed"

Ya this really doesn’t make any sense when applied to recent marvel or Disney in general. Black panther 2, marvels, Ms marvel, secret invasion, all original story’s based diverse characters, for upcoming things we have cap 4, blade, iron heart, Mabye a few others im forgetting.

Then if we broaden the scope a bit to other Disney products we have Ashoka, the up coming acolyte, Reva taking up half of Obiwan, Encanto, turning red(this was Disney right?), soul, wish, and likely a ton more.

Disney has got a lot of failing with how they handle things but the idea that they aren’t adapting or creating original diverse characters and story’s and are just changing white ones to tich boxes isn’t one of them.

[Syegfryed]

Ya this really doesn’t make any sense when applied to recent marvel or Disney in general. Black panther 2, marvels, Ms marvel, secret invasion, all original story’s based diverse characters, for upcoming things we have cap 4, blade, iron heart, Mabye a few others im forgetting.

Bold to say those characters are "original ideas" in the first place, when the original Captain marvel was a man and the villain of the marvels moviewas also a man. They also decided to make black panther a woman instead of recasting. Secret invasion was shit and i rly don't want to talk about it. Cap 4 is an example of how they wanted to make Falcon the captain America because they don't think the character <as falcon> alone is worthy shit, when he was by far one of the best. "But they did in the HQs'', yes, by this very same reason, they are doing in the movies.

Plus, Blade movie is in clusterfuck hell, of how much was re-writen, later reports told us the movie was suppose to be around HIS DAUGHTER, and not him. If this is not a problem i don't know what would be.

You also left eternals out

Disney has got a lot of failing with how they handle things but the idea that they aren’t adapting or creating original diverse characters and story’s and are just changing white ones to tich boxes isn’t one of them.

i never said they only do that, i said they should stop doing that.

And props to then for trying, at least in star wars universe, we just need quality now, and not making shit so overt like in mando season 4 and Ashoka.

Like, i would be 1200% down to see Trinity from matrix fucking shit up with the force and lightsaber in Acolyte... Will i get that? knowing Ashoka and Obi-wan? nope.

[Kathandira]

We already went pass this Endus. You and me, and everyone here all know you are using the word in a different context from what we are discussing.

You can keep trying to force the old meaning, to demonize people who go against your agenda. But we all know we are talking about the "new meaning"

and don't start saying words meaning don't change over time to mean something else

Personally, I believe words can hold different meanings to different people. So imo, it means both things pending on who is using the term.

There is a particular word that started back in the days of slavery that holds different meanings to different people. So it isn't a foreign concept.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Bold to say those characters are "original ideas" in the first place,

not bold at all of these characters had story’s under there respective titles and that were deemed worth adapting for one reason or another when Disney really didn’t have to and could have just swapped white characters instead.

Like they could have made a movie about the original captain marvel but made him black or use the woman actor instead of focusing on Carol, they could have replaced BP with his white adopted brother but made him say brown so he stays an outsider for no reason, they could have turned walker into a black cap or the other guy who was post WW2, ect. There is no shortage of characters to change instead of focusing on the actual diverse ones who had story’s.

Plus, Blade movie is in clusterfuck hell, of how much was re-writen, later reports told us the movie was suppose to be around HIS DAUGHTER, and not him. If this is not a problem i don't know what would be.

quality or lack there of really isn’t relevant when it comes to talking about them adapting original characters over changing existing one, either opinion can be good or bad it’s about rather they try or not.

Same with it being about blades daughter, they thought it was worth making a new diverse character and making them the focus of both a movie and comic line, then failing on the execution isn’t really relevant.

[Syegfryed]

not bold at all of these characters had story’s under there respective titles and that were deemed worth adapting for one reason or another when Disney really didn’t have to and could have just swapped white characters instead.

did they saw then worthy of adapting or just as a vehicle of pushing an agenda? Because i don't trust disney, they are the company that erased Fin and covered Black panther face when these movies went to another countries. And you are forgetting they ARE swapping as well, did you forget Eternals was a thing? the marvels villain? you are acting like those things are not happening simultaneously.

quality or lack there of really isn’t relevant when it comes to talking about them adapting original characters over changing existing one, either opinion can be good or bad it’s about rather they try or not.

Same with it being about blades daughter, they thought it was worth making a new diverse character and making them the focus of both a movie and comic line, then failing on the execution isn’t really relevant.

And like i said, its good they are actually trying to adapt the diverse characters, the problem is the "original stories", were not "original", or were bad, or simple were not the time of it yet. Of course these would not matter or would matter less if the movies/shows were decent.

That's the case of a movie about BLADE, focusing NOT ON BLADE. They are ignoring tons of material from the past to adapt new stuff. As an example, it would be much better if they went with previous stories about Buck becoming captain america, and Falcon staying falcon, as it was his identity, instead of jumping the gun with Falcon becoming THE captain instead, he doesn't even the super soldier serum. Same way on Blade, DUDE why the fuck people should care about his daughter NOW, we want "Blade", a movie about him murdering vampires. when you already have an established character in a good movie, make a spin-off show about his daughter, like ms marvel, i think they handled that nicely, since she is not a well know that popular of a character.

Also, this is another problem im having with the super-hero movies, its like the movies need to be about three or four characters now, they don't focus on the character that is labelled off. The MCU have this problem a lot lately.

[Fencers]

Sadly there are, men and women of colour too. I have seen a few, and watched to see what they are about. Rage bait like this is very profitable I do think people would sacrifice their own dignity and integrity to act dumb (if its even an act) to jump on the 'anti-woke' bandwagon..

These channels or personalities you are referencing are 1 for every 10 bigoted white guys that feel alienated. Exceptions prove the rule.

It's a cottage industry of sorts; outrage media and anti-mainstream rhetoric.