New to heroic siege - requirements questions

[Deleted]

Hellooooo friends.

So, our casual guild is starting up heroics this Friday (yay, finally!) and I just wanted to get an idea of some numbers before we head in. We're going to be attempting the first ~4 bosses or so on heroic. Our raid team is fairly different from night to night (re: casual guild), so our successes aren't exactly consistent.

My question is: how much dps SHOULD our dps be pulling? Most of our raiders are at about a 564, no lower than a 561 and no higher than a 569. And yes - I have been informed that until Malkorok, there isn't really a dps check. But I'd like to have a rough number so I can kick some people in the pants that need it. This week, we are expecting to have the following dps classes:
SV/BM hunter
Combat rogue
Assassination rogue
Destro/Afflic lock
Elemental shaman (going resto if the answer to the question below is hell no)

Also, what is the likelihood of us 2 healing the first four? We have a disc priest and a resto druid that are 2 of our stronger players (ie: we usually rely on them to be badass) and a pally tank/monk tank that are also quite strong... our dps are just a little... derpy sometimes.

If you take your disc priest to norushen he must get priority on cleansing over everyone as he won't be able to attonement heal with a 75% DR

Also we 2 healed everything up to jugg during progress (before we outgeared the content) so you should have no problem two healing everything up to jug with 560+ raiders.

[Deleted]

C'mon man could you at least be a good troll?

So, regarding the hunter, heres some info from raidbots.

Remember, these are top 100 parses, your raiders as new to heroics, they will NOT be doing close to this, unlike mr misinformation over there

Immerseus:
MM: 180-200k
BM: 300k
SV: 330k

Immerseus is a terrible fight to base dps on, ignore it, top parses are from allowing one or two people to whore adds, focus on tactics not dps.

Protectors:
MM: 330K
SV: 530K
BM: 600K

I play SV on Protectors, 575, and do 410k.

Norushen:
MM: 240K
SV: 430K
BM:440K

Another bad fight to base dps on, depends when you take an orb, etc, for example, my parses are awful for norushen because I'm usually in g4, and we go a-z, my name begins with a Q, thus I get it at like 25%.

Sha of Pride:
MM: 300K
SV: 470K
BM: 475K

So basically, this is more for Okay than you OP, just showing how amazingly wrong he is, especially about MM.

I'd personally recommend SV for the first four fights, along with Barrage over Glaive Toss, but if he plays better at BM, at that stage, tbh, go with that, it can also depend on guild tactics and so on.

You'd be better off posting your log when you get it, then we can figure out if anyones doing something wrong, it's very hard to predict someones dps, gear matters sure, the cloak, meta and trinkets are a HUGE dps boost, but if a guy can't keep a rotation, he could be 580 and suck ass.

Sims are better for looking at your own performance after the event, when you have new bosses, people are learning and make more mistakes, some pay more attention to staying alive than keeping as close to 100% uptime on XYZ, etc etc.

Man, Okay, you are such a bad troll, you've buggered up some of your trolling btw, you've conflicted yourself in multiple posts.

Edit: Finally banned, some justice finally prevails.

Your MM numbers look way off to me. My 560 hunter already pulls 300k on jugg or sha as MM with a nhc weapon. It's obvious that MM is trash on protectors, galakras or any other fight that requires aoe or allows for multidotting (which is most fights). For the rest though, it's perfectly viable and on par with the other two. If you have a disproportionately good weapon in relation to the rest of your gear (say you luck out on protectors and get a heroic warforged crossbow early on), I'd even say that it's better.
MM is a lot harder to play (assuming that you have enough haste to replace arcane shot with hardcast aimed - which at this ilvl you should have) than the other two and requires constant attention for focus management, so that would also be a reason not to play it.


OT: We two healed (me being shaman + a druid) most bosses, but I must say that it was very challenging and required good cooldown management, positioning for healing circles + Chain heal and the DDs had to avoid damage when possible. I always felt like we healers had the hardest job, the DPS having only few minor new mechanics to look out for and no tight enrage timers.

Immerseus: 3 heal. Really no point in two healing it. We did it while having him on farm, but it just takes longer

Protectors: Very challenging to two heal, but completely possible. DDs have to run out of group with sha sear instantly, not stand in shit and actively seek out healing circles. Have no experience three healing it, but I can see how that makes things easier.
For us it worked out good to ignore the dot despells if you don't get them instantly (say you were just casting a chain heal and missed the first tick so it jumped). It costs quite a lot of mana and they get cleansed by calamity anyway.

Norushen: Free loot, two healed. Essentially the same boss as in nhc but with a bit more incoming damage

Sha: Also two healed. Didn't really have any problems throughput wise, but the druid did most of the work since shaman sucks when you have to move every other second.

Galakras: Two healed without problems. There is a phase where the first tower boss is down and proto drakes shoot at the group where you probably have to use healing CDs. Other than that a walk in the park.

Juggernaut: Absolutely had to three heal that one. Terrifying boss to heal (in a cruel, but fun and challenging way )

Shamans: three healed, but the other way round from how most people do it. I solo healed haromm with two tanks, rest of the group on kardris. Could only do it because of pally and warr external cooldowns, tho. It was pretty hard and we wiped a few times purely because I failed. Still, the Kardris group is easier to heal, so I guess you can two heal the fight if you want, disc priest simplifies the fight a lot.

Nazgrim: two healed easily. Not much to say here.

- - - Updated - - -

I find it hard to take rank parses seriously right now with how much RNG is involved in actually getting a high rank. Most BM hunters will use detonator over haromms and if you get lucky with detonator procs, bm can destroy surv on quite a few fights, but like I said, it involves an absurd amount of RNG to get right.

Surv is pretty RNG heavy too. Get some overlapping trinket procs + a good explosive shot streak and off the charts you go

[striderZA]

Assuming everyone is 560 minimum with cloak and meta their single target dps MINIMUM should be:

Hunter - 180k as SV, 353k as BM. (377k is he decides to go MM)
Rouge- 350k as combat
Lock- 398k as destro, 295k as affliction. (410k if he decides to go demo)
Shaman- 390k as ele

This is of course just a average estimation. I assume your raiders are slightly higher than 560 and are above average so they should be pulling way more than these calculations.

INFRACTED: This kind of misinformation can mislead others and is not constructive. -Nobleshield

With 560 ilvl, single target, are you insane?

Like seriously, do you hear yourself?

[Deleted]

With 560 ilvl, single target, are you insane?

Like seriously, do you hear yourself?

I've personally calculated and even recorded a lot of these classes/specs with 560ish item level and if played to the best of their ability the numbers are not really that unrealistic. Not quite sure why I got so much hate off that post.

[Notdev]

I've personally calculated and even recorded a lot of these classes/specs with 560ish item level and if played to the best of their ability the numbers are not really that unrealistic. Not quite sure why I got so much hate off that post.

Pretty odd that you haven't been banned yet, but I suppose your brand of trolling is just a tiny bit more subtle than most.

[Toiran]

Your MM numbers look way off to me.

They aren't my numbers, they were from Raidbot at the time of the post.

Logs don't really put MM close to on par to either BM or SV, in the last 60 days of top 100 parses, MM has nearly a 100-200k lower difference on every single fight. These are all averages used, so there will be plenty of amazing, and terrible, performances inbetween also.

I wouldn't really call MM viable at high end raiding, not currently anyway but theres too many variables, what raid, what difficulty, what kind of player, what they have experience playing, blah blah blah, well actually, it is viable, but not optimal.

Edit: Vedni, he did get banned, but apparently it wasn't for long.

[Pennoyer]

Pretty odd that you haven't been banned yet, but I suppose your brand of trolling is just a tiny bit more subtle than most.

Pretty sure he has been token banned for a short period of time, but this is MMOC, where spouting off shit stirs up discussion and creates site hits for master Curse.

[blackblade]

Totally forgot to answer the main question. 200k is a good baseline that most people should be over for single target, but none of the heroics you should be starting out with are this clear-cut to measure. It's also unfair to expect the same DPS from everyone (our warlock does 366k single-target at 566 while my 569 elemental shaman alt simply isn't capable of that much output). I use the "ranking info" section of our WoL reports to see how close each of my DPSers is to the rank limit for each fight, as that is a comparison to others of the same class and spec and it makes it easier to identify under-performers without punishing them form having a less-than-OP class. Keep in mind the strategies you use will impact DPS numbers, but if 4 of your DPS are at 75% of rank limit and 1 is at 35%, it's probably a fair assumption where the problem lies.

Some fights are extremely finnicky on min/max DPS, Sha is a chief offender, if he decides to banish->prison->banish->prison the same player, they obviously will look like a slacker on the charts (because the rest of the raid is tunneling the boss while he's stuck in limbo). Overall, unless you're taking logs and can really pinpoint areas your guys should improve, be prepared for low DPS attempts while people are figuring out the holes in the strat explanations.

[Anzen]

Pretty odd that you haven't been banned yet, but I suppose your brand of trolling is just a tiny bit more subtle than most.

He's been doing the same for ages now, I wouldn't mind ignoring him but then you get new players come to the site and see someone claiming they should be doing 400k single target DPS in normal gear and probably think they're doing something wrong.

Edit: Vedni, he did get banned, but apparently it wasn't for long.

Not long enough, obviously.

[Deleted]

They aren't my numbers, they were from Raidbot at the time of the post.

Logs don't really put MM close to on par to either BM or SV, in the last 60 days of top 100 parses, MM has nearly a 100-200k lower difference on every single fight. These are all averages used, so there will be plenty of amazing, and terrible, performances inbetween also.

I wouldn't really call MM viable at high end raiding, not currently anyway but theres too many variables, what raid, what difficulty, what kind of player, what they have experience playing, blah blah blah, well actually, it is viable, but not optimal.

Edit: Vedni, he did get banned, but apparently it wasn't for long.

Those raidbot parses are really misleading, 200k difference can only mean that top hunters (and top geared hunters) are playing SV or BM not that the performance of MM is that low...

At the same time you have simcraft results on bis gear that give only 8k and 13k difference between 3 specs

Anyway, people on hunters forum claim that depending on the procs MM can outperform SV (on certain fights)... so I think its still more viable.
Take also in account, as someone mentioned already, MM is a little more difficult spec to play than SV.

[MisterMine]

Dark shamans is best with three healers and three tanks using the 2/8 split (non-druid tank + healer on Kardriss [preferably disc] and everyone else on Haromm, and no, I didn't get the names wrong). We killed them in two pulls after switching to this method and I'd say it was about on par with Sha of Pride when done this way.

Nazgrim can be two-healed, but between the new sniper add, assassins on clothies, mages hitting people with other adds on them, we found it was better to three heal. DPS doesn't have to be fantastic to push the boss to about 15% after his last defensive stance before berserk then you just pop heroism and burn while one tank does his best to control the 10% add spawn wave.

this method of killing shamans makes no sense whatsoever. have ur whole raid deal with dangerous 1 shot mechanics requiring coordination while u have 1 tank 1 healer kiting adds and dealing with trivial stuff like moving away from tornado?? just wtf, i really hope u got the names wrong lol, this is just plain dumb.

also, 3 healing nazgrim is a total waste, makes the fight much much harder. there is literally no constant dmg in this fight, and even tank dmg is pretty low. ur healers will be picking their nose 75% of the time then spamming heals a little bit, then picking their nose more. 2 heal it so adds will die faster and it will be easier to burn at the end.