Moonkin patchnotes

[NightZero88]

Sound like they want remove Euphoria...

That quote scares me.

Blizz says: You feel strong in eclipse and weak out of eclipse.
How I feel: I feel equal to other DPS in eclipse and horribly weak when out of eclipse.

They seem to think that during eclipse we're above other DPS out of it we're equal in terms of damage output so one of the weaker classes will be getting some nerfs. Guess it might be time to go back to feral.

[huth]

They seem to think that during eclipse we're above other DPS out of it we're equal in terms of damage output so one of the weaker classes will be getting some nerfs. Guess it might be time to go back to feral.

Nothing in that quote indicates that. He's talking about spec feel, not how strong you are compared to other classes. The latter part won't be relevant until the end of beta.

[Cyous]

If they take away Euphoria, they're going to need to really increase the amount of damage you do in Eclipse. And for the sake of PvP, I'm scared for us on that front. OKF Perk + Eclipse + No Euphoria = worse than spamming ice lance to 2400.

But just thinking about it for a second, if you remove Euphoria, you need to do 1 of the following:
- Increase Eclipse damage bonus
- Increase Spell Power scaling on all DPS spells.
- Make Nature's Grace only take effect while in Eclipse. (Then significantly increase output of spells.)

The point being: If you want Eclipse to feel epic, you need to make it powerful, and make non-Eclipse weak. Directly nerfing our cycling time is perfectly fine. Cataclysm speed was okay. But seriously, no Euphoria is fine.

[Owlkin]

The point being: If you want Eclipse to feel epic, you need to make it powerful, and make non-Eclipse weak. Directly nerfing our cycling time is perfectly fine. Cataclysm speed was okay. But seriously, no Euphoria is fine.

It will very bad for us if they keep NG and remove or nerf Euphoria. Especially in high movement fights.

[Pippilongear]

It will very bad for us if they keep NG and remove or nerf Euphoria. Especially in high movement fights.

Or fights with boss immune phases (target swapping)

Or fights with multiple targets (multi-dotting during eclipse lowers NG uptime considerably)

Even with Euphoria, slogging through 100 uneclipsed energy to get to the next eclipse at 6.0 gear levels without NG, legendary meta or 5.2+ gear levels is going to be obscenely painful (not talking about damage here, just the feel)

I went back to an old saved Wrathcalcs of mine - when I was in full T14 gear (just barely at the 5369 haste bp) my Starfire casts without NG were 2.25s each. Without Euphoria or NG it would take 5 casts of Starfire (assuming no SS procs) to get to Solar from zero - that is 11.25 seconds without factoring in any movement or possible dotting. While that doesn't sound like much, it feels like an eternity when you need to get to a specific eclipse (for aoe or just high dmg phase) and you are 11 seconds away with the prospect of five long casts ahead of you.

[huth]

Celestalon
@thesmall001 Things I'm actively working on atm include mostly the spell visual filtering, along with design and implementation of a couple potential changes to Ursa Major, Blood AM, and Moonkin rotation. We work very collaboratively as a team, too.

Celestalon
@thesmall001 NOTE: Emphasis on *potential*. We try out ideas for potential changes all the time, and don't always go with them.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...48630230499328

I'll just leave this here for now.

[lappee]

Or fights with boss immune phases (target swapping)

Or fights with multiple targets (multi-dotting during eclipse lowers NG uptime considerably)

They'll probably bake NG into eclipse (according to "feel strong / feel weak" statement) so multidotting doesnt matter.

All the fight mechanics (target switch, movement etc) can be prepaired for, thus they're not a huge problem imo.

Even with Euphoria, slogging through 100 uneclipsed energy to get to the next eclipse at 6.0 gear levels without NG, legendary meta or 5.2+ gear levels is going to be obscenely painful (not talking about damage here, just the feel)

And I find it easy as a pie. Right now no-eclipse state is pretty much meaningless, its more about Lunar vs Solar eclipse rather than Eclipse vs non-Eclipse and thats just plain wrong.

I went back to an old saved Wrathcalcs of mine - when I was in full T14 gear (just barely at the 5369 haste bp) my Starfire casts without NG were 2.25s each. Without Euphoria or NG it would take 5 casts of Starfire (assuming no SS procs) to get to Solar from zero - that is 11.25 seconds without factoring in any movement or possible dotting. While that doesn't sound like much, it feels like an eternity when you need to get to a specific eclipse (for aoe or just high dmg phase) and you are 11 seconds away with the prospect of five long casts ahead of you.

Its 8 seconds to swap from eclipse to another if you really need to, you also should have a clue of how the fight works. AoE/burst phases shouldnt be too difficult to handle, and if blizzard wants us to feel "strong" in eclipse, then it also means that we're probably stronger than other classes at those situations too (given that we lose dps when we prepare)

I'll just leave this here for now.

99% expected, we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

[Cyous]

They'll probably bake NG into eclipse (according to "feel strong / feel weak" statement) so multidotting doesnt matter.

All the fight mechanics (target switch, movement etc) can be prepaired for, thus they're not a huge problem imo.


And I find it easy as a pie. Right now no-eclipse state is pretty much meaningless, its more about Lunar vs Solar eclipse rather than Eclipse vs non-Eclipse and thats just plain wrong.


Its 8 seconds to swap from eclipse to another if you really need to, you also should have a clue of how the fight works. AoE/burst phases shouldnt be too difficult to handle, and if blizzard wants us to feel "strong" in eclipse, then it also means that we're probably stronger than other classes at those situations too (given that we lose dps when we prepare)


99% expected, we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

Agreed. Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed. ...But lets "Wait and See." - If Eclipse damage was ~20% more powerful than non-Eclipse (than it is today) and Euphoria were to be removed, and NG working only in Eclipse...this would make Eclipse very strong and non-Eclipse weak. I think the balance between the too got too close in MOP. If the gap were widened a fair bit, then we can feel VERY strong in Eclipse, but very weak if the player is inexperienced (or simply bad.)

I'm definitely curious to see the next set of alpha changes. Based on what we've talked about on MMO-C, SentryTotem, and other sites, there's a lot of options. But personally, I need something concrete so I may provide better feedback.

[huth]

99% expected, we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

I think i might need to emphasize the "potential" part a bit more, though. Then again, some people are going to read this as a "promise" anyway, so might as well not bother.

[lappee]

I think i might need to emphasize the "potential" part a bit more, though. Then again, some people are going to read this as a "promise" anyway, so might as well not bother.

Theres no need for that.

Balance is just fine in PvE right now (pvp not so much, but it never has been that good anyway). WoD talents etc change things by alot, and that alone suggests theres changes coming thus 99% expected that they're trying out changes and most likely something will change.

[huth]

Try telling that to the "sky is falling!" guys. Though you'll probably be better off not trying.

Celestalon
.@SoukieBillard On a related note, everyone, when you see datamining of the next build, DON'T FREAK OUT. We're doing things to adjust damage across the board for the 6.0 numbers, and that includes reducing a *ton* of numbers. Fear not, we'll balance it.(source)

I can already see the oodles of nonsensical nerf cries next week. Ugh.

[Miraclous]

And I find it easy as a pie. Right now no-eclipse state is pretty much meaningless, its more about Lunar vs Solar eclipse rather than Eclipse vs non-Eclipse and thats just plain wrong.

I suppose you don't like the idea of Equinox then?

Agreed. ...But lets "Wait and See." - If Eclipse damage was ~20% more powerful than non-Eclipse (than it is today) and Euphoria were to be removed, and NG working only in Eclipse...this would make Eclipse very strong and non-Eclipse weak. I think the balance between the too got too close in MOP. If the gap were widened a fair bit, then we can feel VERY strong in Eclipse, but very weak if the player is inexperienced (or simply bad.)

I'm definitely curious to see the next set of alpha changes. Based on what we've talked about on MMO-C, SentryTotem, and other sites, there's a lot of options. But personally, I need something concrete so I may provide better feedback.

Without euphoria and with NG only working in eclipse Equinox would be way too strong compared to the other lvl 100 talents. Of course this is all speculation, but with a talent that gives us 100% eclipse uptime they can't make eclipse that much more beneficial than non-eclipse. At the moment the strength from Equinox is being balanced by the fact that Euphoria gives more NG uptime, but if you remove both Euphoria and tie NG to eclipse you'd have to remove Equinox or buff IS/Sunfall by a lot.

[kudoas]

simple aoe fix, let us drop mushrooms while we channel hurricane, and maybe wm detonation also infects all mobs with insect swarm.

[Dreyen]

simple aoe fix, let us drop mushrooms while we channel hurricane, and maybe wm detonation also infects all mobs with insect swarm.

Yea, that was my suggestion.. it would feel really smooth and give us something to do during hurricane, not make us feel punished for stopping our hurricane, youd have to place mushrooms properly, detonate them in the right eclipse, a much more fun aoe than what we have right now.

[Vanos27]

If there were to let us drop mushrooms during hurricane I'd want them to redesign Hurricane a bit so instead of haste lowering the time it takes to cast as well as speeding up the ticks they should keep it the same cast time while adding more ticks and speeding them up. This way you won't have to try to fit 3 mushrooms and a detonate in under like 5 seconds.

Anyway I think that would make it less of a pain, I might be missing something.

[Glurp]

Being able to drop mushrooms during hurricane is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. That's like the definition of a clunky mechanic.

[lappee]

I suppose you don't like the idea of Equinox then?

You're right, i think the whole talent is the worst i've ever seen. Its against the whole "balance between eclipse and non-eclipse" that our spec is supposedly all about.

Together with the fact that the talent is just way too hard to balance around properly. "take equinox and mastery is by far the best stat" after blizzard announced "we want all stats to be equal"

[Cyous]

You're right, i think the whole talent is the worst i've ever seen. Its against the whole "balance between eclipse and non-eclipse" that our spec is supposedly all about.

Together with the fact that the talent is just way too hard to balance around properly. "take equinox and mastery is by far the best stat" after blizzard announced "we want all stats to be equal"

What would replace Equinox then? Personally, I would mind seeing an "Ignite"-esque spell. (If IS did 10% total damage, then this Ignite would do ~8-12% (Crit variance, spell power based...making Wrath "better" single target with Ignites (might build faster)). I'd also add a splash-on-ignite mechanic (to be strong in heavy clump (4-5 meh, 6+ yes). So, it'd be a storng single-target and SS-weave (maybe make WM or Hurricane ignite too). IDEAS EVERYWHERE

[Glurp]

Together with the fact that the talent is just way too hard to balance around properly. "take equinox and mastery is by far the best stat" after blizzard announced "we want all stats to be equal"

I think the whole wanting all stats to be equal will just never work. There will always be a best stat even by a small margin and different talents change the value of different stats (with equinox being an extreme example) meaning that stat balancing would have to be done around a cookie cutter talent build which simply wouldn't work.

[lappee]

What would replace Equinox then? Personally, I would mind seeing an "Ignite"-esque spell. (If IS did 10% total damage, then this Ignite would do ~8-12% (Crit variance, spell power based...making Wrath "better" single target with Ignites (might build faster)). I'd also add a splash-on-ignite mechanic (to be strong in heavy clump (4-5 meh, 6+ yes). So, it'd be a storng single-target and SS-weave (maybe make WM or Hurricane ignite too). IDEAS EVERYWHERE

No idea, anything else than Equinox really I'd give it a thought if blizzard asked my opinion but now i just cba, prefer to watch hockey!

I think the whole wanting all stats to be equal will just never work. There will always be a best stat even by a small margin and different talents change the value of different stats (with equinox being an extreme example) meaning that stat balancing would have to be done around a cookie cutter talent build which simply wouldn't work.

Most likely not, but they can try to get them as close as possible. However with talents like Equinox it just isnt possible