Guardian Alpha Patchnotes

[Bearshield]

Here's a comparison of physical armor reduction. I can't seem to copy more than one character today for some reason so these are all from lv 100 premades:

Warrior: 42.89% (47.89% if you talent into Gladiator's Resolve)
Paladin: 41.93%
Death Knight: 36.78%
Druid: 35.50%

Considering each of these classes has an ability to block or absorb damage now, I really don't see how anyone can say losing HALF our armor was justified.

- - - Updated - - -

Armor may have decreased by they seem to have given us back the physical damage reduction in Bear Form.

Any idea how to verify this? I just compared the current tooltip with a screenshot from the last build and both are showing 25% reduction.

[Callsignecho]

Any idea how to verify this? I just compared the current tooltip with a screenshot from the last build and both are showing 25% reduction.

No idea how to compare this. The tooltip is broken for Bear Form, however, it seems likely that with the armor reduction that they would give us the physical damage reduction on Bear Form we had in the first place. The only difference I notice is the rage generation, which may be the cause for concern. Damage intake seems to be about the same to me.

[Braindwen]

Unless the damage numbers they gave for the target dummies are inaccurate, they didn't give the 12% physical reduction back.

(e.g. the raid dummy hits for 2-300k, getting hit by him a few times his damage would have been over 300k if we had that 12% reduction).

[Totaltotemic]

I don't normally post here but I've been keeping an eye on Guardian and I just don't understand the decision to revert T&C making Maul free. Hasn't one of the biggest problems with the spec throughout MoP been that bears are balanced around using T&C procs but never actually have the rage to use Savage Defense, FR, and Maul all at the same time and Maul inevitably loses out because it's the weakest one? Even at 20 rage I don't see a reason why you'd spend rage on that if you still have SD charges or are not at full health and can FR.

I always thought that T&C not consuming extra rage was the one mechanical change (not just number-related) that Druids needed to lower damage intake to around what other tanks have, taking that away just doesn't make sense. No other tank is balanced around using resources on three different forms of mitigation simultaneously, why do they keep returning to this model?

[Malvesti]

I have to agree with Totaltotemic. Using Maul never felt like the right thing to do until the point that I was overflowing with rage all the time. In other words, it was never really a viable choice; it was just a rage dump.

[Arielle]

T&C being free makes it completely mindless, and you just press Maul whenever it lights up. It doesn't add any choice or dynamic, you just press it when it procs without even thinking.

Rage levels were perfectly fine before - once the Thrash bug was fixed anyway. It was our passive mitigation that needed nerfing. Revert the Pulverize, Mangle, and Lacerate Rage nerfs, re-add Swipe on a CD that generates 2 Rage / target, give GoE a cost reduction based on Dodge, replace Fur, and nerf FR/T&C's output if you have to.

[Raugnaut]

I don't normally post here but I've been keeping an eye on Guardian and I just don't understand the decision to revert T&C making Maul free. Hasn't one of the biggest problems with the spec throughout MoP been that bears are balanced around using T&C procs but never actually have the rage to use Savage Defense, FR, and Maul all at the same time and Maul inevitably loses out because it's the weakest one? Even at 20 rage I don't see a reason why you'd spend rage on that if you still have SD charges or are not at full health and can FR.

I always thought that T&C not consuming extra rage was the one mechanical change (not just number-related) that Druids needed to lower damage intake to around what other tanks have, taking that away just doesn't make sense. No other tank is balanced around using resources on three different forms of mitigation simultaneously, why do they keep returning to this model?

In terms of numbers, on live, TC absorbs .8xAP/1xStam, and FR heals 2.1xAP/2.5x stamina. While I'm not sure of WoD numbers, atm, FR is currently 25% more rage efficient then TC, assuming no overhealing on both parts (No TC absorb wasted, no FR overhealing). With a 30% reduction in rage cost, however, T&C becomes 20% MORE rage efficient then FR, assuming no overhealing, and assuming the formulas remain the same going into WoD. Meaning, of course, outside of fights where portions of the TC absorb is wasted, TC will ALWAYS be a better choice then FR. (More mitigation+damage component)

Of course, it not quite as number-y as previous free TC, but with a free TC, it was basically a button you could push whenever it lights up, no thought to it.

The main problem with the most recent changes though, is the greatly reduced rage generation, like what Arielle has said. Since SD maintanence requires 6.6 RPS generation, 7.8 RPS means that you can only use 1 maul per 20 seconds, or 1 full rage FR per 60 seconds. And, of course, with the rage gen changes, the stat investment to get more RPS isn't worth it. (2k haste or crit for 1 extra RPS, as Arielle has mathed out, is equivalent to 20% extra Multistrike, or a good HP boost).

I would revert all the RPS changes, and just make FR/TC mitigate less damage.

[Malvesti]

That makes sense as long as T&C remains more rage-efficient than FR. Then it's a real choice and not just a rage dump.

[Bearshield]

T&C being free makes it completely mindless, and you just press Maul whenever it lights up. It doesn't add any choice or dynamic, you just press it when it procs without even thinking.

Rage levels were perfectly fine before - once the Thrash bug was fixed anyway. It was our passive mitigation that needed nerfing. Revert the Pulverize, Mangle, and Lacerate Rage nerfs, re-add Swipe on a CD that generates 2 Rage / target, give GoE a cost reduction based on Dodge, replace Fur, and nerf FR/T&C's output if you have to.

T&C being free does not make it completely mindless. It was broken in the sense that you could get back to back procs. An internal cd on the proc would solve that problem and make the choice of whether to use it or not more meaningful.

And how exactly did our passive mitigation need cut in half? I can understand maybe a 10-15% nerf and then test it but half our armor was overboard.

[Braindwen]

T&C being free does not make it completely mindless. It was broken in the sense that you could get back to back procs. An internal cd on the proc would solve that problem and make the choice of whether to use it or not more meaningful.

And how exactly did our passive mitigation need cut in half? I can understand maybe a 10-15% nerf and then test it but half our armor was overboard.

T&C being free sucked. About the only thing not mindless about it was remembering that you're supposed to just push it whenever it lights up, as opposed to trying to use it at smart times and... accidentally capping stacks (I forgot to spam it a lot ), and FR being the only rage dump was very lame with our signature high rage gen. (I suspect we'll end up getting high rage gen back, it's kind of been our thing for the entire previous expansion, making us painfully slow would be a pointless reinvention of the spec).

Also a reminder that we started the beta with a 330% armor bear form, and we were OP back then too. Since then we lost the 12% from thick hide, which does suck a bit, but isn't that tragic. It's a little weird to suddenly be #4 in armor, sure, but just remember how much armor-piercing stuff has plagued us this expansion, and rejoice that we aren't so armor-reliant anymore .

[Dreyen]

Personally, i find the rage nerf pretty justified. I was getting so much rage i didnt know what to do with it on single target... Mitigation was probably too high as well.

Mitigation got hit SO hard, but if we have the hp/self healing to survive anyways, i dont mind. Losing the rage gen on top of the armor might be a bit too much, we'll see. It's definitely an overnerf though imo... I wasn't taking that much less damage than our warrior co tank even after i factor my self-healing and T&C absorbs..

T&C going 20rage and not being free anymore is fine, i wouldn't say the free version was mindless though, but it just made you pay attention to use your procs. T&C not being free, depending on your rage, means you either use it at 100 rage, or spam it if you consider that you won'T need rage for FR anytime soon.

[Bearshield]

If you want to be technical, our entire rotation is "mindless". Mangle, Thrash, spam Lacerate, rinse, repeat. We have always had the simplest rotation of all the tanks, being able to actually use Maul with some regularity had nothing to do with that. I still think putting an internal cd on T&C would solve everyone's problem. And Bear was painfully slow all through MoP. No, we weren't limited by rage, we were limited by cd's. Now they've removed the cd's and nerfed the rage.

And I fail to see how everyone can be so comfortable with the loss of both armor and base dmg reduction. Druids were the high armor tank. That's always been our thing. Now we have less armor and lower dmg reduction than any of the other tanks and no "bearcat" to offer as utility when people are looking for the most durable tank for the job.

[Totaltotemic]

In terms of numbers, on live, TC absorbs .8xAP/1xStam, and FR heals 2.1xAP/2.5x stamina. While I'm not sure of WoD numbers, atm, FR is currently 25% more rage efficient then TC, assuming no overhealing on both parts (No TC absorb wasted, no FR overhealing). With a 30% reduction in rage cost, however, T&C becomes 20% MORE rage efficient then FR, assuming no overhealing, and assuming the formulas remain the same going into WoD. Meaning, of course, outside of fights where portions of the TC absorb is wasted, TC will ALWAYS be a better choice then FR. (More mitigation+damage component)

Of course, it not quite as number-y as previous free TC, but with a free TC, it was basically a button you could push whenever it lights up, no thought to it.

The main problem with the most recent changes though, is the greatly reduced rage generation, like what Arielle has said. Since SD maintanence requires 6.6 RPS generation, 7.8 RPS means that you can only use 1 maul per 20 seconds, or 1 full rage FR per 60 seconds. And, of course, with the rage gen changes, the stat investment to get more RPS isn't worth it. (2k haste or crit for 1 extra RPS, as Arielle has mathed out, is equivalent to 20% extra Multistrike, or a good HP boost).

I would revert all the RPS changes, and just make FR/TC mitigate less damage.

I guess if it's still better than FR that might open up an interesting game that goes something like this:

1) Never let SD sit at max charges (so it's not wasting recharge time)

2) Don't let TC expire or sit at 2 charges

3) Burn extra rage on more SDs

4) FR if somehow you still have rage

Basically you'd be juggling SD and TC to make sure neither caps out and FR becomes relegated to the rage dump/primary magic defense instead of the secondary physical defense button. I can see that happening, if it's balanced correctly.

[Arielle]

I guess if it's still better than FR that might open up an interesting game that goes something like this:

1) Never let SD sit at max charges (so it's not wasting recharge time)

2) Don't let TC expire or sit at 2 charges

3) Burn extra rage on more SDs

4) FR if somehow you still have rage

Basically you'd be juggling SD and TC to make sure neither caps out and FR becomes relegated to the rage dump/primary magic defense instead of the secondary physical defense button. I can see that happening, if it's balanced correctly.

It's impossible to get past step 2 with Rage currently being the way it is.

Unless you're gearing in a manner that is objectively inferior (i.e. Haste/Crit vs Mastery/Armor/MS). Then you're just being dumb.

[Bearshield]

(i.e. Haste/Crit vs Mastery/Armor/MS). Then you're just being dumb.

This is another consideration actually, are we going back to gearing for survival in WoD at the cost of Haste/Crit? I haven't changed any of my MoP gear out yet so haven't really played around with stats myself but I've been kinda wondering which way we will go with Mastery actually being useful now and bonus armor back.

[Arielle]

This is another consideration actually, are we going back to gearing for survival in WoD at the cost of Haste/Crit? I haven't changed any of my MoP gear out yet so haven't really played around with stats myself but I've been kinda wondering which way we will go with Mastery actually being useful now and bonus armor back.

Before these absolutely asinine Rage changes, all of the stats except Crit were pretty level (with Bonus Armor being very good, because it's supposed to be). Now both Haste & Crit are absolute trash, leaving Mastery/Versa/MS as the only viable secondaries available on armor.

[Raugnaut]

Personally, i find the rage nerf pretty justified. I was getting so much rage i didnt know what to do with it on single target... Mitigation was probably too high as well.

You do realise that we were nerfed to ~7.6 RPS generation, and that SD maintainence requires 6.6 RPS generation? (Not back-to-back SD, but just being able to use it on CD requires that much), and that you now need 2k haste/crit rating to just get 1 extra RPS generation, right?

This means that you can ONLY use 3 Mauls/Minute, or 1 FR/Minute.
It means that if you want to get MORE Mauls/FR usage, you will have to invest such a stupidly huge amount of stats that you'll wind up taking MUCH more damage then going mastery/versatility
It was over-the-top. Revert the rage changes, make TC/FR mitigate ~20% less. Done, bears nerfed.

Armor change does suck though, kinda goes against what bears mean to me. Bear=high armor, high HP.

Now we are just super mana sponge. Is sad.

[Dreyen]

Tanking imperator right now, pretty high melee damage.. feels great though, but the damage i take makes me feel like i need to play my AM. but i take so much more damage than my warrior co-tank, there has to be a tank overpowered or underpowered in there, he absorbed as much as i healed. Over all our pulls, i took 22.0% of damage, he took 13.9%. He did taunt slowly at times but i dont think that made a differnece.

As far as rage goes, i really dont feel like SD rage starves me, i can get plenty of FRs and mauls in, all mastery enchants,and 1.2kcrit 1k haste with all raid enchants. It really feels fine.

I understand the stats probably don't scale too good.. they could always make crit give more rage and haste give something more like T&C procs, but the base rage gen was stupid, you shouldn't be able to reach 100 rage and not know what to do except use unempowered mauls.

[Braindwen]

Also... 7.6 seems like it's quoted with dodges but without SotF/Incarnation. SotF being the important one since it's about 2 RPS all by its lonesome right now, it can easily make things feel much better.

Add the fact that we're almost certainly going to have some haste and crit whether we want it or not, Imperator having an attack speed boost for even moar dodges, and Maul *technically* costing (20-5*crit%) rage instead of 20 , and you can see how rage could feel fine even now.

edit: Ari, pulverize can still crit and proc PF, it's not quite worth "0" rage. /nitpickftw

[Totaltotemic]

It's impossible to get past step 2 with Rage currently being the way it is.

Unless you're gearing in a manner that is objectively inferior (i.e. Haste/Crit vs Mastery/Armor/MS). Then you're just being dumb.

Right, and that's why the rage generation nerfs on top of making Maul cost rage don't make sense. Cutting virtually all generation in half is one thing, but taking away what was essentially free rage at the same time is kind of overkill. It's typical overbearing changes, instead of trying it out at free Maul and nerfed rage generation or same rage generation and 20 rage Maul, they went both at the same time which doesn't make a lot of sense.