Guardian Alpha Patchnotes

[Callsignecho]

I'm not. I liked being able to burst a mob down in the time it took to wear off. I used it more for the damage component than the stun anyway.
...What's going to happen to the 91-100 bear hug bonus?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm sure they will adjust our damage output accordingly. Just part of the grand ability pruning. Other classes are getting shafted as well.

Like you stated, you used it for a very specific purpose. I think they are trying to get rid of most of those kinds of abilities in the game.

As for the perk, I'm sure they change it into something useful.

[Ampere]

Yeah, Bear Hug felt... for lack of a better word, clunky. It was kind of like a worse version of Bash since it rooted you. I know the WoD perk removed the root, but still not torn up about losing it.

[exochaft]

Yeah, Bear Hug felt... for lack of a better word, clunky. It was kind of like a worse version of Bash since it rooted you. I know the WoD perk removed the root, but still not torn up about losing it.

It may have been clunky, but that leveling passive would've fixed most of the clunkiness. Currently, you could stamp roar or powershift out of the root if you really wanted to. I actually enjoyed Bear Hug, as I enjoyed the little niche of a stun doing damage (fun for leveling/soloing for burst damage, and PvP too). Also, Bear Hug rooting us was actually pretty powerful in knockback situations, as it completely prevented it in many cases if you had a stunnable target (or sometimes it works even if the target is immune). Now I'm going to have to figure out what to put in that bind, since that's been my reserved spot for bear stun for years.

On a similar note, is this a trend of Blizz making all the tank control being mostly in talents? Perhaps more changes are coming in this department, but Guardians typically haven't had toolkit with much baseline control. Taking away Bear Hug leaves us with... Infected Wounds and nothing else beyond talents? Don't want to start a "X class has this, I want it too!", but rather I'd express the concern from a balance perspective across tanks. Could be a PvP change, too.

[Callsignecho]

On a similar note, is this a trend of Blizz making all the tank control being mostly in talents? Perhaps more changes are coming in this department, but Guardians typically haven't had toolkit with much baseline control. Taking away Bear Hug leaves us with... Infected Wounds and nothing else beyond talents? Don't want to start a "X class has this, I want it too!", but rather I'd express the concern from a balance perspective across tanks. Could be a PvP change, too.

I think that is their design intent. Most of anyone's notable control through talents so that one has to choose which CC they want to bring instead of bringing them all. Also helps with the ability bloat.

On another topic, at first I felt that the changes we were getting were going to bring us up to the level of the better off tanks, but now I think that the other better off tanks are being brought down to our current level in MoP. Seems like every tank is getting the shaft in some way, with bears getting the least of it all because there was not much to shaft in the first place. I'm perfectly fine if they are taking away Bear Hug if it means we get to keep all of the other things that we enjoy. I can't say that for every tank atm though.

[Rioo]

Bear Hug had its uses. Used it a lot during Garrosh progression and in Proving Grounds. Since Guardian already don't havemany buttons to press I don't see why it should go.

[Tower]

I don't agree with removing any more bear abilities. We have so few as it is so there really is no need to keep pruning from our spellbook. Swipe and enrage are both gone, now bear hug is gone as well. Enrage is not really a big deal, it was nice to have rage before the pull though. Removing swipe is not really a problem with me, but then again it leaves us with one aoe ability. Removal of bear hug again is not a huge deal, but having a stun that does a lot of damage on a 1 minute cd was very handy at times. I just don't see the reason that bear hug needed to be removed.

[morislayer]

Since I sawr that they are removing Bear Hug it occurred to me how many abilities from post Wrath druids lost:

Pulverize: Gone (Back in talent)
Bear Hug
Symbiosis
Demo Roar (This move at least generated aoe threat once upon a time)

Also lost are:
Swipe, where thrash will serve as the wrath version of swipe, which was deplorable tanking experience.
Engage

In the past 3 expansions druids have now:

Skull Bash (used to have feral charge for this...)
Survival Instincts
Savage Defense
Berserk (Nerfed version)

I havent actually tanked as guardian in a loooong time so I could have missed some changes as well

EDIt: Just to make my point, out of all the tanking classes, they made guardian imo the worst, with the least amount of "clickable rotation" abilities. They have barely changed in now 5 expansions in terms of abilities. Honestly is there another class that has gained zero specialization abilities since level 80, but actually lost some?? Guardian continues to need some love

[Callsignecho]

EDIt: Just to make my point, out of all the tanking classes, they made guardian imo the worst, with the least amount of "clickable rotation" abilities. They have barely changed in now 5 expansions in terms of abilities. Honestly is there another class that has gained zero specialization abilities since level 80, but actually lost some?? Guardian continues to need some love

All of the tanks are losing a lot of specialization in the expansion. A lot of abilities are going away. Everyone seems to be about the same with one niche feature to their class, i.e., Warriors have mobility, Paladins have healing, etc. Druids seem to be the exception. They are going to have a high, if not the highest, health pool, shapeshifting benefits (like Dash for mobility), ability to spec into off healer role for a short period of time (HotW), etc. What Druids lack in rotation and overall abilities, they make up for in pulling a little bit of what every other tank gets as a niche with a potential for large variety of possibilities depending on how you spec.

As for a "clickable" rotation, Druids have always been a simple and straightforward tank. We are going to have 3 buttons with an option for a 4th through talents. The difference between us and other tanks is that we use all 3-4 of our buttons for single target situations and 2-3 of our buttons (normally excluding Lacerate) for multi-target situations. Other tanks may have 6-8 buttons, but are more likely to only use 3-4 of those for each situation.

I understand your concerns, as it seems that every tank is becoming simpler, to a certain extent, and Druids look like they are becoming almost nothing because they didn't have a lot of abilities to give in the first place. If you have any concerns, the devs are listening. They have already reverted quite a few changes because of players discussing the impact of the changes on the class. Other than that, we will just have to wait and see what happens in beta.

[Kujako]

http://i.imgur.com/0N6IlnH.jpg

Posted by Valarius in the thread. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post26561543

Screenshot from someone in the alpha from a Guardian perspective. Most notable is the Resolve buff in the upper right.

To me the most notable part are the empty action bars. We'll see how it goes, but so far it all sounds very dull. Some people just wont be happy till there's only one button left I guess.

[exochaft]

We'll see how it goes, but so far it all sounds very dull. Some people just wont be happy till there's only one button left I guess.

Maybe Blizz has been getting feedback that performing all the tanking tasks is still too difficult in SoO when it comes to executing a rotation, worrying about AM, watching the environment, etc? I'm not joking, actually. While I personally don't think it's the case, having been a bear for years may skew my perspective a bit in this regard. When I switch to other tanking classes after an expansion overhauls it, there's a bit of a learning curve that may be rougher to the less experienced.

[Kujako]

Maybe Blizz has been getting feedback that performing all the tanking tasks is still too difficult in SoO when it comes to executing a rotation, worrying about AM, watching the environment, etc? I'm not joking, actually. While I personally don't think it's the case, having been a bear for years may skew my perspective a bit in this regard. When I switch to other tanking classes after an expansion overhauls it, there's a bit of a learning curve that may be rougher to the less experienced.

I'm sure they have. But if you make a game targeted only at the lowest common denominator of players, it's going to be rather dull for the rest of us. Perhaps I'm just bitter having spent time writing an add-on for bear hug that quotes of Mice and Men, but I prefer complexity to simplicity. It holds my interest longer.

http://i.imgur.com/0N6IlnH.jpg

The above image is telling to me. That after 90th level there are so few icons on the action bars makes me very disinterested in the next expansion.

[Callsignecho]

Maybe Blizz has been getting feedback that performing all the tanking tasks is still too difficult in SoO when it comes to executing a rotation, worrying about AM, watching the environment, etc? I'm not joking, actually. While I personally don't think it's the case, having been a bear for years may skew my perspective a bit in this regard. When I switch to other tanking classes after an expansion overhauls it, there's a bit of a learning curve that may be rougher to the less experienced.

This is what I also believe. It's difficult to see this if you only come from a Guardian perspective, but if you are playing different tanks, like myself, in SoO right now, there are noticable differences from playing a Guardian to playing any other tank. Bear is, by a fair enough margin, the easiest tank to play and there is not a whole lot to keep track of as everything is quite simple or comes naturally through your rotation because you don't have a whole lot of abilities to worry about in the first place.

However, other tanks also are getting simpler from the changes. It seems weird that an already simple tank is getting simpler, but looking at the changes from other tanks, it's not as bad as you think. Every tank is going to have a similar amount of baseline abilities in the end.

- - - Updated - - -

http://i.imgur.com/0N6IlnH.jpg

The above image is telling to me. That after 90th level there are so few icons on the action bars makes me very disinterested in the next expansion.

I would take that image with a grain of salt. The tank in the picture doesn't have every ability that could and probably should have on his bars.

[Kujako]

I would take that image with a grain of salt. The tank in the picture doesn't have every ability that could and probably should have on his bars.

Of course. I'm trying to not jump to any conclusions, but I'm also refraining from getting too interested till I see things for myself. In other words, no pre-order. Waiting to see if 6.0 is as boring as I fear it will be or if they manage to keep it interesting after removing so many abilities.

[Callsignecho]

Of course. I'm trying to not jump to any conclusions, but I'm also refraining from getting too interested till I see things for myself. In other words, no pre-order. Waiting to see if 6.0 is as boring as I fear it will be or if they manage to keep it interesting after removing so many abilities.

I took the time to look over all of the tanks and adjust the abilities on bars to reflect the changes. The average tank is going to have ~2 bars worth of "useful" abilities and Druids will be on the low side of that average at ~1.5 bars. Not surprising considering how simple Druids have always been. If you want a tank with 2+ bars worth of abilities, I would be looking in the Warrior/Monk direction.

[Kujako]

I took the time to look over all of the tanks and adjust the abilities on bars to reflect the changes. The average tank is going to have ~2 bars worth of "useful" abilities and Druids will be on the low side of that average at ~1.5 bars. Not surprising considering how simple Druids have always been. If you want a tank with 2+ bars worth of abilities, I would be looking in the Warrior/Monk direction.

After nine years o' Druid tankin' (hipster Druid was tanking in Molten Core before it was cool), I am far too lazy and set in my ways to switch classes.

[Callsignecho]

After nine years o' Druid tankin' (hipster Druid was tanking in Molten Core before it was cool), I am far too lazy and set in my ways to switch classes.

Understandable, but I personally don't think it's that bad when I take all of the other tanks in perspective. Druids are not nearly getting as much of the shaft as other tanks are getting. I took a bar's worth of abilities off of my Warrior from the changes and I still have over 2 bars.

[Milkyz]

http://i.imgur.com/0N6IlnH.jpg

The above image is telling to me. That after 90th level there are so few icons on the action bars makes me very disinterested in the next expansion.

Very important abilities missing:

- Stampending Roar;
- Skull Bash;

Not used very often (while tanking) abilities missing:

- Nature's Grasp (can be useful in 5-mans)
- Dash (might be useful in some situations, as it puts you into Cat Form anyway it's useful to have it available on all forms)

Not used while tanking (most cases) , but useful to have available on all forms:

- Cat Form;
- Bear Form;
- Travel Form;
- Prowl;
- Entangling Roots;
- Hibernate;
- Cyclone;


Talent Tiers from the Screenshot:

- Feline Swiftness on 15 (passive)
- Ysera's Gift on 30 (passive)
- Faerie Swarm on 45 (replaces another already binded skill)
- Soul of the Forest on 60 (passive)
- Mighty Bash on 75 (no option on a passive)
- Dream of Cenarius (judging from the binded Healing Touch)

Just this would add at least 15 bindings more, excluding Level 100 Talent, pots, healthstones, macros. Excluding mount, he has already 17 bindings, which could possibly bring it up to 32. That's still far from few abilities, at least from my point of view.

[Dreyen]

I remember when people were saying the sky was falling hard when pulverize got removed. Our rotation didn'T change since then and nobody is complaining.

If anything, just go pulverize and i assure you the rotation will feel fine. Maul won't be a thing you ignore at low gear levels anymore either since it'll be free.

[Rioo]

The cool kids ignores Savage Defense on lower gear lvls so they don't lose big deeps.

I saw on WoWhead that the SI glyph for now is still in the game, and now reduces the CD by 40 sec instead of 1 min. Same 6 sec duration still. That brings the CD to 1m20s before any CDR rating. I think it will still be good for a lot of bosses, but with the level 100 CDs, Barkskin being buffed and SI having a by default shorter CD and 2 charges it might not be the best choice on every boss anymore.

[exochaft]

Just this would add at least 15 bindings more, excluding Level 100 Talent, pots, healthstones, macros. Excluding mount, he has already 17 bindings, which could possibly bring it up to 32. That's still far from few abilities, at least from my point of view.

The list of abilities you mentioned did bring up an area where we're quite different from other tanks, and that's all the abilities that fall outside of Bear Form. While I'm certain PvP has a huge influence on this aspect of Guardians, many of our binds are extra abilities that could be useful and/or require us to become vulnerable to use.

For instance, Dash: while it can be used on encounters, it's not something you can use while actively tanking and it does make us more vulnerable to damage, but since the ability is accessible to Guardians it affects our balancing in PvE. Our combat rez falls under a similar umbrella, since it's considered part of our utility, but it's on-demand use is limited or very dangerous unless you talent a specific way.

Since button/ability bloat has been a focus of WoD, I've been hoping this may be addressed in some aspect. Guardian's biggest problem regarding this category is likely all the non-Guardian/caster spells that we can use, and thus far we've mostly lost abilities that we could use in Bear Form while actively tanking. To a new or inexperienced Guardian, it makes more sense to prune extraneous abilities versus abilities that are easily usable in Bear Form (even if pruning those abilities is still a good idea for various other reasons). While veteran Guardians are apt to make all abilities we possess work no matter what, it goes completely against what Blizz has indicated as a goal of WoD. Is the justification that being a druid equates to unavoidable hybrid ability overload or that it would be very hard to come up with a workable solution to embrace their WoD goals while maintaining PvE/PvP balance?

The cool kids ignores Savage Defense on lower gear lvls so they don't lose big deeps.

While some may find it crazy, I've run into many max level Guardians that didn't know to use SD (either using FR exclusively or didn't know about the ability). Not using or improperly using active mitigation in such a manner isn't exclusive to just Guardians, I should add.

The problem with tanking, especially when it comes to random dungeons and LFR, is that you cannot avoid being the center of attention. I've seen countless complaints about bad DPSers over the years, and that role typically has less responsibility than tanks have on the most boring and uneventful fights. Perhaps the assumption is that being able to tank should be slightly easier than being able to DPS, since the responsibility/focus is much higher? I'd view this as the end justifying the means (which I personally don't like), but it may be where we're headed. I'd rather the solution be akin to Proving Grounds, allowing the player to rise up to the occasion rather than lowering the bar. Wow, I'm mixing so many phrases I should stop now...