What happened to shadow?

[Deleted]

So lets see... You're mid pack DPS and you're upset because you're not closer to Warlocks? Please just stop >.< This whole "shadow is terrible" argument is a dead horse beaten into ground meat and then burned into a hockey puck like burger that we have all had crammed down our throats for the past 2 years. You are balanced. Warlocks are an outlier. Get. The. Fuck. Over. It. (I main a Frost DK BTW which happens to be LOWER than SPriest on your little graph...)

Personally, I get why people don't want to just be "middle of the pack", not that it warrants complaining about it, but I don't understand this obsession with comparing sPriests to Warlocks.

[Orcindauh]

Personally, I get why people don't want to just be "middle of the pack", not that it warrants complaining about it, but I don't understand this obsession with comparing sPriests to Warlocks.

I'd rather compare them to an ele shaman. Anything a shadow priest can do an ele can do better. Better off healing and dps.

And probably the most important thing. Ele shaman are mobile.

[Deleted]

Ehm, Nope.

Mmm, yep. Show me some logs of you playing your Moonkin and I will tell you exactly what you are doing wrong.

I'd take a Raidwide Gate over one measly grip every 1.5 min every time.
I'd take a raidwide set of healthstones with 3 charges that can crit you for 50% of your hp over 3 min cd VE every time.
Shadow buffs Stam and Haste, Warlock buffs Stam and Spellpower.
Warlocks take up to no damage and have great defensive cd's that allow to continue dpsing. As a shadow you have to stop dealing every time you realize your healers struggle.
And the best utility : Damage dude. If you healers aren't complete tards you will never need anything of the shadow except damage and maybe an emergency Hymn(which costs dps also)
With locks in the raid you wouldn't even need the hymn since the fight would be over a min faster :P We had a lock over from another top 10 Guild and he played affli every fight. On fights where i ranked shadow top 30 ranks he did warlock 70-80's and beat me about 100k dps every time, 600k on protectors ( that is 600k MORE).

So , no. Shadow utility is worse than Locks.

I see, you play 10. I don't know much about 10, and neither do I care because I see it as a different competition or different game if you like. One I didn't take part of. Besides, OP is talking about 25 HC so you are going off a tangent.

Hymn of Hope is very little mana gain; its more a psychological thing than anything. T90 off healing stacks, and was decent on certain progress fights. DS on 25 when stacked is amazing. A Halo every 45 sec on Klaxxi HC to name an example covered about 25-33% of the raid during circle position, while also doing optimal damage. Healthstone? You only need 1 Warlock for Healthstones. Spell Haste is also provided by Elemental, Moonkin, and Hunter. Assuming nobody dies you only need 1 of these; on progress that is a bold assumption (even on Klaxxi, last time I checked on WarcraftLogs in every kill people died on Klaxxi 25 HC; there was no kill uploaded with zero deaths not even in top guilds. From what I remember the best kills had 3 deaths, could've been boosted though). Gateway is a utility you could use on certain fights but only on certain fights, and you only need a X amount. On Thok, 2 are useful, but you can certainly do it with 0 as well. Mass Dispel from Shadow on Thok on the other hand is quite useful. On every other fight on 25, Gateway is useless in SoO at least except you need 1 on Garrosh for the Wolf Rider (not so you are quicker that is what timing or rocket boots are for; it is so he runs into Iron Star). On farm if none of our Warlocks are there (we got 4, so that almost never happens) I notice what I miss the most is indeed Healthstone, Gateway on 2 fights out of 14, and last but not least Summoning Portal during swaps. Not to mention their AoE and on-demand single target burst is unrivaled especially for Destruction. Spoils, for example, Havoc and Chaos Bolt take care of 2 sparks with the blink of an eye. Affliction? Doesn't bring much except on quick kills they make the fight last less long. On Klaxxi, Warlock health pool and Soul Leech allows them to soak Aim with minimal DPS loss due to KJC. On Garrosh, they can bait weapons with minimal DPS loss, same with Siege Engineer. We bring Spectral Guise to Thok, Siegecrafter, and Klaxxi as well as Leap of Faith. A Demonic Gateway is nowhere near as useful as Leap of Faith on Klaxxi though, and Spectral Guise is the best CD to cheese both Aim and Mesmerize. The problem is also, Discipline is amazing. You just take 2 of those on 25 and the other healers can chill. Our utility is decent (I don't really care if someone does 500k or 600k on Protectors as the fight was easy from the first week). That isn't the problem. The problem is that our decent utility has to compete with another spec as well, the strong healer spec Discipline Priest. Everything I wrote here with the exception of off healing a Discipline Priest can perform as well. Sure, Thok Mass Dispel costs them mana well then they just stack a little bit more spirit or something, or spam a few shields less. Not the end of the world. The Discipline Priest heals with synergy with throughput healers when it matters (during burst damage) and when it doesn't matter they either snipe with DA or they contribute to the DPS with Atonement. So it is not that Shadow's utility is bad; it is that Discipline is an amazing spec which overshadows our utility.

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HS are gone in MoP, Gateway is close to useless most fights and gets nerfed too. Take Garrosh hc - only utility a lock have there, is to have strong dps, to burst engineers or adds in first intermission, and HS every third Whirl. Meanwhile I would kill to have SPriest to have actual root (that can't break from any damage) for adds in p1, Halo for EVERY Whirling corruption, and Feathers as best mobility tool in game for kiting Iron Star.

Discipline Priest together with Restoration Shaman are the best 2 healers for Garrosh. There is no reason why a Discipline Priest cannot use Void Tendrils. Oh, and Void Tendrils will be nerfed next expansion.

I can guarantee if you would replace Warlock with SPriest you wouldn't notice diffrence apart from lower raid dps (much lower on single targets I'll give you that),

A Destruction Warlock AoEing does twice the amount of damage as a Shadow Priest.

[Spinalcrack]

Oes noes the middle of the pack! The worst place to be!

One day Blizzard will find a way to design a DPS graph so that everyone is at the top of the meter simultaneously. Then at long last, the forums will be happy! The players shall rejoice and there shall be peace throughout the land.

We can't all be on top...

It's not about being top middle or bottom. It's about having the dps classes (especially other cloth casters that fill a similar role), all being close enough in dps potential, that a good player could choose any of the classes and compete for the top.

It's the dps gap between the classes that matters. Someone will always be top and someone will always be bottom (that's what she said :P), but if you are quite often 20-30% below (Average across Wow's population, not necessarily in every situation)... lets say Warlocks.. then that is not only broken, its just not fun.

And before 10 people say, OUTLIERS!!! Blizzard knows this!!! Well lets just hope they learned from MoP. Letting a class stay that far out in front digs a hole where nerfing them nerfs guilds because they have stacked Warlocks and won't have the dps to kill certain bosses at certain levels if they try to rebalance on the fly.

I think 5-10% dps difference, (when talking max potential), across all casters should be the goal.

With healing being removed from Shadow to allow bigger damage numbers, I'm optimistic that we will be on par with other cloth casters in 6.0.

[Deleted]

Mages and Warlocks have been more valuable than Shadow Priests throughout this expansion. In terms of both raw DPS and utility.

[Deleted]

Maybe not utility for mages, but yeah SP were kinda put on a bench during the whole xpack. And why compare ourselves to warlocks? it is very easy, during cata the 3 multi dot spec were actually very close in therms of DPS output: we kinda all sucked on single target but ruled on multi target fights. Nowadays SP and moonkin are still close, but affliction is doing 20-30% more damage on more than one fight and in every type of fight(single or multi) so yeah pretty good reason to bitch about locks...

As for the lock saying he wants to rerol SP because they were "op" on ONE fight... every thing you said could be done by a disc priest, as someone mentionned. One fight were priest utility is higher than yours doesn't warrant a class change... We are talking about en entire xpack, where SP were underwhelming on quite a large number of fights.

[Nivrax]

One fight were priest utility is higher than yours doesn't warrant a class change... We are talking about en entire xpack, where SP were underwhelming on quite a large number of fights.

I don't want to change to priest for one fight, I would like to HAVE a priest for that fight, and for few more back when we were progressing as well. Future reroll is mostly how changes are planned. And I'm quite happy with that, I really like spriest rotation (feels more like old Affliction than current lock incarnation), but I always been more competetive meter player rather than support. WoD might allow me to do both.

And yeah, it's true what shadow priest does, Disc can do. But isn't it the same with Shammies and Druids too, their support is either baked in class or in talent trees?

[Dierdre]

It's not about being top middle or bottom. It's about having the dps classes (especially other cloth casters that fill a similar role), all being close enough in dps potential

This. It has nothing to do with being middle of the pack. It's being the worst caster spec while also sharing loot with the two top dps classes.

[MetroStratics]

Shadow brings a ton to the table though, and unless you are talking about cutting edge progression (which you aren't, this many months in) then its all irrelevant.
If you play shadow and enjoy yourself, there will be a group for you.
If all you are worried about is sim DPS then you are playing the wrong game. A good shadow priest can do just as well as anyone else, despite what the math says.
Dispersion and Spectral Guise for Paragons Heroic is enough of a boon, regardless of Vampiric.

Play the spec because you enjoy it, and thank the WoWgods that things are as closely balanced as they are.
Go back to Classic and see just what Shadow was.

[Chaosturn]

So lets see... You're mid pack DPS and you're upset because you're not closer to Warlocks? Please just stop >.< This whole "shadow is terrible" argument is a dead horse beaten into ground meat and then burned into a hockey puck like burger that we have all had crammed down our throats for the past 2 years. You are balanced. Warlocks are an outlier. Get. The. Fuck. Over. It. (I main a Frost DK BTW which happens to be LOWER than SPriest on your little graph...)

Sure, they might be balanced on a graph. The thing is you have to play absolutely PERFECT not making a single mistake for the entire fight to get average dps, while other specs can top the charts casting some spells at the wrong time and the like.

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Go back to Classic and see just what Shadow was.

Go back to classic and see what Balance, Retribution, Survival, and Enhancement was... (Inb4 "I played that spec in MC and I was topping dps chart all the time")
Classic is just not a viable comparison to today's game.

[Orcindauh]

I wouldn't say they bring a "ton" to the table. Sure there might be a few pros about bringing an spriest but not many.

-Off healing. Sure shadow can do some okay off healing but you know who can do even better off healing as a dps? An elemental shaman. Also elemental shaman do better single target dps and do SICK AoE (CL spam too stronk). More mobile so they don't have to sacrifice a ton of dps to move a few yards.

-Spectral Guise. Okay so warlocks and elemental shaman don't have anything like this (I don't think) so there's one plus I guess. I'm sure that's amazing for H blackfuse and paragons.

-Hymph. I don't heal so tbh I don't even know how helpful this is to healer but based off some of the post it's not that great.

Disperse - Yeah, good I guess. But nothing other classes can't do better.

Bottom line is they don't really bring anything... mmm, how should I say this... "unique". Almost every dps class brings something to the raid they are very well at doing compared to other classes.

Shadow- Single target damage is "mid pack". Multi dotting damage (compared to other specs who multi dot) is "mid pack". Aoe damage is "mid pack". Off healing is "mid pack" (compared to other specs who have raid wide off healing). Mobility is probably one of the worst out of all the dps specs. So damn, what exactly is their area of expertise? Not bashing or anything (I have a 566ish shadow priest alt myself which I enjoy) this is just how I see the problem with shadow priest this tier.

[Spinalcrack]

Shadow brings a ton to the table though, and unless you are talking about cutting edge progression (which you aren't, this many months in) then its all irrelevant.

The discussion is still relevant because they are currently re-doing all the classes and soon will start balancing numbers for WoD. It's important, that priests expectations are neither too high (make us first in everything rawr), or too low, (as long as its fun doesn't matter if we are 30% behind everyone else).

If you play shadow and enjoy yourself, there will be a group for you.

This really depends on how big a dps gap there is when we bring no healing and others have much better utility. You have to bring something unique or your dps has to be as good as others or you will be picked last to play in the vast majority of raid teams out there. This is especially true when all the raiders are going to be in one larger pool to draw on, but at the same time, the number of range dps spots is going to be 10 or less (more like 7-8 at most). So out of on average 8 range dps in a 20 man (2 tanks, 5 healers, 3-5 melee dps, 8-10 range), you can choose from Mages, Warlocks, Druids, Shaman, Hunters and Shadow. Making sure the dps gap isn't as large as 30% (which comes from current logs, not Simcraft numbers), is hugely important.

If all you are worried about is sim DPS then you are playing the wrong game. A good shadow priest can do just as well as anyone else, despite what the math says.

These percentages are not sim DPS. They are taken from logs at various points throughout this last tier. (The 20-30% I am mentioning, not the OP graph's). I would definitely say Drye is a top shadow priest, and a little while back he linked a log where a lock in his guild did DOUBLE his dps on protectors. DOUBLE! Now, that is an outlier situation for sure, but the fact that it is even possible to occur on a multidot fight with that kind of gap at the skill level WWA plays at shows that things are legitimately unbalanced.

Play the spec because you enjoy it, and thank the WoWgods that things are as closely balanced as they are.
Go back to Classic and see just what Shadow was.

I love Shadow. Enough that I want to see it do damage on par with everyone else. Not be overpowered and not underpowered. The class is the most enjoyable when you have the opportunity and potential to compete with others on the meters. We are a dps spec. Our utility is not going back to Vanilla/TBC levels, and our off healing is being removed. The dps gap needs to be smaller than ever before, in order for it to be fun, and realistic to compete on spots, gear etc.

I did play in Classic as Shadow. Was a different game, and entirely different spec back then, so there isn't a lot of point in being grateful today for being different than something that had a totally different design driving it back then. It's comparing apples to oranges. Things change.

Shadow priests should expect the same dev attention and damage output as all other dps classes (within a reasonable amount), and I do feel that will be the case in WoD. The changes they have discussed so far address a large amount of complaints shadow has had over MoP. I am really looking forward to the shadow changes we are receiving.

[Deleted]

Shadow- Single target damage is "mid pack".

Rock bottom single target, together with Retribution and Elemental. I don't count specs like Arms or Marksmanship though since these specs have more than viable alternatives (Fury, Survival, Beast Mastery). I do feel sorry for people who really prefer to play Arms or Marksmanship though, but not as much as say Shadow not being viable or Retribution not being viable. Because players playing these specs do not have an alternative DPS spec. They're doomed to playing a different role if they want to stick to same class.

Multi dotting damage (compared to other specs who multi dot) is "mid pack".

Mid pack, of what list are you using? We are bottom compared to every real multidotter (Affliction, Arcane Mage, Moonkin). Of course we do better multidot than Elemental. Elemental isn't a dot class and Flame Shock hits like a wet noodle.

[Deleted]

Mages and Warlocks have been more valuable than Shadow Priests throughout this expansion. In terms of both raw DPS and utility.

Mage utility.. Wait what?

[Orcindauh]

Mid pack, of what list are you using? We are bottom compared to every real multidotter (Affliction, Arcane Mage, Moonkin). Of course we do better multidot than Elemental. Elemental isn't a dot class and Flame Shock hits like a wet noodle.

I was pretty much including ranged dps like demo (doom and corruption), destro (which multi dots immolate ) and survival hunters (who to an extent multi dot serpent sting as it does pretty sick damage as survival and black arrow as with AoC the CD of black arrow is shorter than the duration, I know I do on protectors) as well.

Rock bottom single target, together with Retribution and Elemental. I don't count specs like Arms or Marksmanship though since these specs have more than viable alternatives (Fury, Survival, Beast Mastery). I do feel sorry for people who really prefer to play Arms or Marksmanship though, but not as much as say Shadow not being viable or Retribution not being viable. Because players playing these specs do not have an alternative DPS spec. They're doomed to playing a different role if they want to stick to same class.

Arms is viable a few fights this tier. Galakaras, spoils and protectors (if you stack them up) are fights where arms can perform well. Maybe shamans too if you keep them together. I guess Paragons and H immers as well if you wanted to pad meters hard. So you probably could count arms too.

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Mage utility.. Wait what?

By "utility" he probably means raping meters.

[Drye]

Go back to Classic and see just what Shadow was.

I hate when people say this. Shadow was really good in vanilla. We did a ton of dmg, in fact, we did so much dmg and Mind Blast generated so much threat that we had to stop and wand to let the tank keep up.

[Dierdre]

A good shadow priest can do just as well as anyone else, despite what the math says.

Yeah... no.

[Clrg]

A good shadow priest can do just as well as anyone else, despite what the math says.

You are right, only if the warlocks and mage are noobs a shadow priest can be good as anyone else in the recount.

[Deleted]

I was pretty much including ranged dps like demo (doom and corruption), destro (which multi dots immolate ) and survival hunters (who to an extent multi dot serpent sting as it does pretty sick damage as survival and black arrow as with AoC the CD of black arrow is shorter than the duration, I know I do on protectors) as well.

Destruction is a cleave spec, not a multidot spec. Regarding Demonology, I only compare to the best Warlock spec on a fight by fight comparison. Saying "Shadow is better than Demonology on multidot, so its fine" is utterly retarded when Affliction does far better multidot than either. Its a hybrid problem though since our whole utility and flexibility has to stem from our one spec while a pure has 3 to pick from.

Arms is viable a few fights this tier. Galakaras, spoils and protectors (if you stack them up) are fights where arms can perform well. Maybe shamans too if you keep them together.

I mostly care about the later 3 fights. Galakras is about a balance between AoE cleave and single target. There are various roles for utility available as well. Protectors, you don't stack those up on progression.

I guess Paragons and H immers as well if you wanted to pad meters hard. So you probably could count arms too.

I don't care about padders. Padders are selfish retards and what they do is irrelevant since progress matters and padding is just children playing on a playground.

By "utility" he probably means raping meters.

I meant the combination of the two. In case of Mage, mostly raping the meters, yes. Time Warp is akin to Healthstone or Summoning Stone utility -- you just one of 'em. Ring of Frost has been quite useful in this expansion on various bosses (Will of the Emperor and Siegecrafter to name two examples), and a Mage can also utilize Cauterize, Greater Invisibility, and Frostjaw. Even though their utility may not be the best you just bring them for glass cannon purpose. Last but not least a Mage doesn't have to compete on utility spot with Discipline Priest (which you bring anyway).

[Orcindauh]

Destruction is a cleave spec, not a multidot spec. Regarding Demonology, I only compare to the best Warlock spec on a fight by fight comparison. Saying "Shadow is better than Demonology on multidot, so its fine" is utterly retarded when Affliction does far better multidot than either. Its a hybrid problem though since our whole utility and flexibility has to stem from our one spec while a pure has 3 to pick from.

You're actually the one who said shadow was the "worst" multi dotter out of all the viable dps classes. Demo is viable, shadow is a better multi dotter than demo therefor shadow is not the "worst" multi dotter. It doesn't matter than affliction is better, BOTH specs are viable therefor they both count. I basically proven you wrong and you saying "NO THAT DOESNT COUNT BECAUSE IM RIGHT" it extremely childish. Destruction IS a multi dotting spec and I honestly do not see how you could say otherwise. Immolate = a dot. Destruction warlocks cast immolate on multiple targets. By definition, that is called multi dotting.

Again, out of all the viable ranged dps specs which multi dotting is quite powerful, shadow is a better multi dotter than demo, destruction and survival so clearly not the worst and indeed mid pack. Might as well throw frost mages in there too.

I mostly care about the later 3 fights. Galakras is about a balance between AoE cleave and single target. There are various roles for utility available as well.

That's okay if you "only care" about the last 3 bosses because whether you care or not there are 11 other bosses this tier..... Proven wrong yet again and you counter argument was "well idc about the other 75% of the instance". Again extremely childish and not really helping your side of the argument out. And TBH the hardest part of H galakaras is phase 1 imo which consist of pure cleaving and AoE .... which arms is good at.

Protectors, you don't stack those up on progression.

We stacked them during progression and we had an arms warrior and it worked out fine.

I don't care about padders. Padders are selfish retards and what they do is irrelevant since progress matters and padding is just children playing on a playground.

Umm.....okay? Padding is how you keep farm content from being boring imo.


But just judging from this one post I assume you're one of the guys who say "SHADOW IS DEAD LAST ON EVERYONE OMG" "My spec needs buffs!!!!".