Mirror image a level 90 talent?

[Immitis]

mirrors image needs to be removed from mages and given to warriors

[halfawake]

It's very easy to understand how it's considered bloat; in instanced content it's just another cooldown to stack, and its threat reduction component will become redundant in WoD with the Vengeance changes for tanks. For its other uses you get the same utility out of the talented version on top of vastly increased damage - if you're that assed about an "iconic" ability then you can take the talent instead.

Raiding: Aggro isn't going to matter.

PvP: Fire and Arcane will no longer have access to the slow given that the Glyph effects are becoming baseline. The detargeting utility will most likely remain on the talented version.

Dungeons: Aggro isn't going to matter, part two.

Soloing: If you're that dependent on Mirror Images, you're obviously not using your full kit of control spells or being very careful as regards which mobs you pull.

How do vengeance changes change any aspect of streaming adds? Take Heroic Thok for instance, bats are streaming in, you get to put down your bombs and throw out frozen orb, with images, you can start doing that right away, or even throw out a fof ice lance. If you pull any of those bats, that's a bad thing obviously.
Of course, you could just say play better, or play without relying on mirror images and that's fine, I can accept that. But you can't deny that mirror images has a utility in raiding right now and it's definitely not just useless or bloat (the definition of bloat in my opinion is that it is useless). Also, when I mention soloing content, I mean old raid content that you would die to if you had aggro. You can heal your pet as frost (the next target after your images die for the duration of MI), you can't heal yourself.

My only point is that it has a use in the game and I don't consider it to be bloat at all. You're not supposed to be using it on cooldown, you're supposed to use it when you need it.

[gallamann]

Everyone on this thread keeps glossing over the fact that leveling mages lose an ability. Some also seem to have a "God" complex and can't phantom that 99% of the player base doesn't necessarily have their abilities.

Does it impact me, hell no my mages are 90 and I can easily spec MI. However I know the value of MI while leveling, its a damn shame some people can't see beyond the end game mage.

[LocNess]

Everyone on this thread keeps glossing over the fact that leveling mages lose an ability. Some also seem to have a "God" complex and can't phantom that 99% of the player base doesn't necessarily have their abilities.

Does it impact me, hell no my mages are 90 and I can easily spec MI. However I know the value of MI while leveling, its a damn shame some people can't see beyond the end game mage.

"Value while leveling"? What?

Pull too much? Greater Invis, Invis, Ice Block, Ice Nova, Blink, Dragon's Breath, Blast Wave, Polymorph. For the most part, there are not any huge world elites anymore that require huge amounts of efforts and can't be just bursted down with general Mage strength in the game's current leveling format (which, to be specific, is piss easy format). Also you can level 90-100 with it! So woo don't need to worry about not being able to level without it, eh?

[Imnick]

Mages have more escape tools than virtually any other class and you only get Mirror Image when you're more than halfway through done. I don't think anyone's actually going to miss it for that purpose.

[Deleted]

Are you saying mages are better soloers than other classes?

to contribute more: I don't think the issue is the ability to run from a fight, that mages are better at than most other classes. The only possible weakness here might be oondasta where you'd prefer to be able to heal yourself, but that's part of the mage.

[rogoth]

Can we please not use this for pleas? This is not the place for them. Mirror Image was never really a good spell to begin with.. Sure it helped us with soloing, but it still does.. even as this talent. But now it does actual damage. And if it's balanced with the other 2 talents, it will be the largest burst out of all 3(unless they are 100% uptime), which will help our solo kills much more.

PvE people for the most part Mirror Image was used as an aggro dump and dps increase. But most of the time for me personally felt like a wasted button I pressed every 3 minutes. For PvP it didn't really do anything exept dropped targeting for a while.

Also this thread is not about Alter Time. Please do not make it about it.

T10 4p set would like a word with you, also, it was a necessary tool to mitigate threat back when threat actually mattered, now it is used as a dps cooldown plus a utility spell when it is needed, and should stay as such, in PvP it is used not only as an escape tool, but also as a way of adding an extra slow (assuming u play frost), that you would normally not have, and in PvE it is helpful on fights where there is an aggro reset and tanks can't generate threat quickly enough, or when you need to swap to adds on a fight and the tank can't get there as fast as you can target swap, so it has multiple uses, all of which as very much useful to the casting mage at any given time, just because you persoanlly don't care either way doesn't mean all feel the same way, hell, i quit WoW over a year ago and i still think this sort of change is wrong, it shows a lack of creativity from the devs that they are trying to dress up an old ability as something flashy and new, it just doesn't wash, that's why reaper of souls expansion for diablo 3 isn't doing as well as wash oped, due to the fact 75% of it is just a copy and paste job, once the novelty wore off after the first week, it is back to the same shit different day situation, the way things are going in WoW, i can see them making the same mistake(s).

[Imnick]

They aren't rebranding Mirror Image as a "new ability", they're making it a talent because if they didn't make it a talent they would have just removed it entirely. In a world where Mirror Image is not talented it just doesn't exist, it no longer fits Blizzard's design philosophy to have buttons that are marginal DPS increases to hit on cooldown and duplicate utility you already have.
We only use Mirror Image right now because it does slightly more damage than casting Frostbolt.


Also why does "I don't actually play WoW" mean you are less likely to think a change is bad? You already thought it was bad enough to stop paying for so that doesn't really make your point stronger
Especially because Reaper of Souls is also by all accounts a success... Maybe letting your feelings colour the facts a bit here.

[Polarthief]

Here's my two cents on the whole Mirror Image thing: I have never considered Mirror Image a DPS cooldown, so making it a talent (specifically as a DPS cooldown) just seems ridiculous to me. Regardless of how strong you make it, if they aren't controlled, they could hit things you don't want them to hit or just flat out not attack things. While I'm hoping Blizzard has the sense to finally add some intelligence to them (e.g., GIVE US A FUCKING PET BAR/SOME WAY TO CONTROL THEM!), they haven't really been changed all that much since they were made in Lich King, so... not gonna hold my breath. My vote's to keep them how they are currently, or hell even strip their damage; I enjoy the utility of 0 aggro/3 extra shields from a single attack for 30s.

Mages have more escape tools than virtually any other class

I'd argue Rogue, but we also have the lowest HP, Armor, and have no % damage reduction like pretty much every other class had until Siege launched, so... fair trade? *shrug*

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Are you saying mages are better soloers than other classes?

Greatly depends on the content.

- 1v1 PvP: Yes, Mages are among top tier in this, though who really gives a shit about duels?
- PvE content that can be rooted/frozen/other hard CC: Yes, Mages are also amazing at this level too, though there are other classes who are better (Warlocks and Hunters, especially)
- PvE content that can NOT be rooted/frozen, but are slowable: We're okay here, but definitely not that great.
- PvE content that have full CC immunity, including slows: Nope. You should reroll or wait for the next expansion before you bother with this. Mages are the worst class at this level.

[Northem]

In my honest opinion, any changes to the current mage level 90 talents is a good thing. I despise our current talents. If they want to buff our Images and make them replace Invocation, I will welcome it every day.

On that we all agree. Anything different from the old level 90 talents, will be undoubtedly better.

But that is no excuse for us to accept the first thing that Blizzard improvises ... we must be demanding!

And putting baseline spells (which may be more or less useful) in the missing gaps of the Talent Panel is, at least, embarrassing by the part of Blizzard.

This, Mirror Images are replacing Invocation on the lvl 90 row, and besides Arcane everyone is taking Invocation as it is at the moment so people will just take Mirror Images in WoD unless RoP and Incanters change drastically during beta.

I say again the same: forget about the old level 90 talents! They have gone for good! *cough* RoP *cough*

The obligation of Blizzard was to have replaced them by new talents and not taking their places on the Talent Panel with spells we already had baseline ...

Do you not see that is an outrage? Do you not see they are stealing us a spell for then try to sell it to us? Why paying for something that we had free before? Why are you so conformist?

[Txiv]

On that we all agree. Anything different from the old level 90 talents, will be undoubtedly better.

But that is no excuse for us to accept the first thing that Blizzard improvises ... we must be demanding!

And putting baseline spells (which may be more or less useful) in the missing gaps of the Talent Panel is, at least, embarrassing by the part of Blizzard.



I say again the same: forget about the old level 90 talents! They have gone for good! *cough* RoP *cough*

The obligation of Blizzard was to have replaced them by new talents and not taking their places on the Talent Panel with spells we already had baseline ...

Do you not see that is an outrage? Do you not see they are stealing us a spell for then try to sell it to us? Why paying for something that we had free before? Why are you so conformist?

I dunno it never stood out as an interesting cooldown for its damage. I would like to see it as a talent and get the chaos imp treatment; chance on something ( be it crit or just baseline spell) to summon an image that dies after 10 seconds and can do one single and one aoe ability. So they can frost bolt/ blizzard, arcane blast/arcane exp or fireball/ flame strike. Then on top of that they can have chance to give Mage fof proc, arcane missile and increase fireball crit damage perk ( ie everytime they fireball it adds another 5% chance to crit for Mage).

Keep it random and keeps every spec in their toes with more procs.

[Pwellzor]

Everyone on this thread keeps glossing over the fact that leveling mages lose an ability. Some also seem to have a "God" complex and can't phantom that 99% of the player base doesn't necessarily have their abilities.

Does it impact me, hell no my mages are 90 and I can easily spec MI. However I know the value of MI while leveling, its a damn shame some people can't see beyond the end game mage.

I was originally thinking that the OP's reasons for keeping the spell were pretty rose-tinted, and I still do, but what you're saying makes sense. New players will see mirror image and won't be so goddamn jaded as we are. Most of us by now see it as "If it isn't a huge dps boost or survivability button, toss it".

But a NEW player will see it as "badass, I'm splitting into 3 copies of myself" or "badass, that just saved me"

I have been turned, I think this is more than an eyes of the beast, this is an iconic spell that goes back to the origins of warcraft (albeit for a blademaster).

New players deserve a chance to use it while leveling. Not just at 90.

[LocNess]

I was originally thinking that the OP's reasons for keeping the spell were pretty rose-tinted, and I still do, but what you're saying makes sense. New players will see mirror image and won't be so goddamn jaded as we are. Most of us by now see it as "If it isn't a huge dps boost or survivability button, toss it".

But a NEW player will see it as "badass, I'm splitting into 3 copies of myself" or "badass, that just saved me"

I have been turned, I think this is more than an eyes of the beast, this is an iconic spell that goes back to the origins of warcraft (albeit for a blademaster).

New players deserve a chance to use it while leveling. Not just at 90.

And they will. Just at level 90 instead of level, what? 64? Haven't leveled a Mage since Wrath, but I assume its still pretty high.

I think the "badass" effect drops off after your MI hits do like 50 damage when a normal frostbolt hits for 800.

And lets not ignore the part where they can now manipulate time at Level 30 to get out of sticky situations. At 75 (not far off from MI level) they can create an Arcane supernova to knock enemies up (har). Oh and early Mages get an ability to become immune to all damage for 3 seconds. They will have plenty of other things to play with.

[amarrite]

I never used it as a damage cooldown but a utility spell. use it when soloing elites to give them three other targets to burn down for 30 seconds before they get to me. I hope this gets reverted myself.

[Swizzle]

"Value while leveling"? What?

Pull too much? Greater Invis, Invis, Ice Block, Ice Nova, Blink, Dragon's Breath, Blast Wave, Polymorph. For the most part, there are not any huge world elites anymore that require huge amounts of efforts and can't be just bursted down with general Mage strength in the game's current leveling format (which, to be specific, is piss easy format). Also you can level 90-100 with it! So woo don't need to worry about not being able to level without it, eh?

Isn't it only 10 levels without MI? Seeing as you got it at level 80 before, having it moved to 90 while you do the Cata stuff doesn't seem too bad.

[LocNess]

I never used it as a damage cooldown but a utility spell. use it when soloing elites to give them three other targets to burn down for 30 seconds before they get to me. I hope this gets reverted myself.

What Elites do you solo leveling between 49-90 that actually require effort and do not have a gimmick? Most world elites have been removed from the game or nerfed to a normal mob, besides and MoP/Cata do not have any elites that NEED to be killed for any reason, other than to make leveling seem more dangerous. Also, again you get Alter Time at level 30 now, 19 levels before MI that lets you kite up to 15 seconds and then teleport back at full HP, which honestly is possibly more effective health than Mirror Image gives you if you can kite worth a damn.

[Deztru]

On that we all agree. Anything different from the old level 90 talents, will be undoubtedly better.

But that is no excuse for us to accept the first thing that Blizzard improvises ... we must be demanding!

And putting baseline spells (which may be more or less useful) in the missing gaps of the Talent Panel is, at least, embarrassing by the part of Blizzard.



I say again the same: forget about the old level 90 talents! They have gone for good! *cough* RoP *cough*

The obligation of Blizzard was to have replaced them by new talents and not taking their places on the Talent Panel with spells we already had baseline ...

Do you not see that is an outrage? Do you not see they are stealing us a spell for then try to sell it to us? Why paying for something that we had free before? Why are you so conformist?

I agree.

I would choose MI from the talents now (hopefully I don't have to) but as it is so long until WoD is actually launcing I highly doubt this is final.

It is a shame that blizzard can't come up with a new tier to replace our old L90 tier, instead they just replaced Invo with MI (absurd), RoP is no longer required for arcane but still limits movement (Most mages will stay away from it) and the Incanter's Flow just feels like.... meh.

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What Elites do you solo leveling between 49-90 that actually require effort and do not have a gimmick? Most world elites have been removed from the game or nerfed to a normal mob, besides and MoP/Cata do not have any elites that NEED to be killed for any reason, other than to make leveling seem more dangerous. Also, again you get Alter Time at level 30 now, 19 levels before MI that lets you kite up to 15 seconds and then teleport back at full HP, which honestly is possibly more effective health than Mirror Image gives you if you can kite worth a damn.

Sure they do a little bit of damage, but I use them in the pull for 1) I just pre-cast them without wasting combat time 2) I can't agro anything for 30 seconds which is awesome if there's adds in the first 30 seconds (Norushen, Galakras, Spoils, Garrosh)

The damage is pretty much so low that it's completely negligible, they need a buff regardless of becoming a talent or not.

[LocNess]

I agree.

I would choose MI from the talents now (hopefully I don't have to) but as it is so long until WoD is actually launcing I highly doubt this is final.

It is a shame that blizzard can't come up with a new tier to replace our old L90 tier, instead they just replaced Invo with MI (absurd), RoP is no longer required for arcane but still limits movement (Most mages will stay away from it) and the Incanter's Flow just feels like.... meh.

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Sure they do a little bit of damage, but I use them in the pull for 1) I just pre-cast them without wasting combat time 2) I can't agro anything for 30 seconds which is awesome if there's adds in the first 30 seconds (Norushen, Galakras, Spoils, Garrosh)

The damage is pretty much so low that it's completely negligible, they need a buff regardless of becoming a talent or not.

My points were in discussion of people complaining about leveling with MI and losing that ability, I have always argued that MI is an awful CD in raiding, but it should be a talent with its current power Blizzard is giving it, otherwise it would be too strong as a regular ability.

And the 90 Talent Tier is fine now. RoP will most likely be the best at this point, and with WoD Raiding minimizing movement compared to MoP raiding, it will be fine. And RoP is perfectly viable in current tier even with all the movement, it is just annoying and Invocation can prevent getting RNG locked from your Rune. Mirror Image is there for any burst needed, Incanter's Flow could probably be altered a bit but it is there again for people who don't want to be stuck in the rather large radius RoP gives you now.

[rogoth]

They aren't rebranding Mirror Image as a "new ability", they're making it a talent because if they didn't make it a talent they would have just removed it entirely. In a world where Mirror Image is not talented it just doesn't exist, it no longer fits Blizzard's design philosophy to have buttons that are marginal DPS increases to hit on cooldown and duplicate utility you already have.
We only use Mirror Image right now because it does slightly more damage than casting Frostbolt.


Also why does "I don't actually play WoW" mean you are less likely to think a change is bad? You already thought it was bad enough to stop paying for so that doesn't really make your point stronger
Especially because Reaper of Souls is also by all accounts a success... Maybe letting your feelings colour the facts a bit here.

because you don't understand why i said about me quitting WoW over a year ago i will explain, if i was still playing today, my view point may be different, and my overall opinion would very likely be different, since i no longer play, i can take a much wider look at the game, yes i still have a strong tie to my main which was my mage, and i still skip over many patch notes just to see what mage changes are being made/looking to be made, just to see what is happening.

making mirror image a talent is "rebranding" it is saying "hey look at this old baseline skill that mages have had for years now, well now u get the option to NOT have it anymore unless u lcik button 'X' on the talents selection screen", also, with the level of laziness shown by blizzard and the development teams in recent months/years, i am surprised that more spells like mirror images aren't being added into the game, since they are lazy game fixes to problems like i mentioned in my initial post, with the way that fights are being designed now, where they are taking several abilties from several older bosses, and throwing them together into a single boss encounter, where timing and damage output matter, having a tank that can't get threat on adds fast enough, is an issue, so having something that helps mitigate this, is a help not only for the player using these skills, but also the dev team as it allows them time to work on fixing the underlying problems (mobility), as well as other examples.

my problems with D3 and the latest expansion serve as further indications of how lazy the dev team is, or how blizzard seem to be trying to suck in as much cash as possible for as little effort as possible, as an example, map sets are identical in the "new" act, to older map sets in the original release, only difference is the invisible walls are placed differently, and the artwork of the area you are running in is different, the actual map layout (route to take etc) is identical, the mystic, one of the big selling features of this new expansion is an old asset that was used in the original diablo 3 beta, but was cut from the game and didn't make release, the cynic inside me wants to believe that it was due to blizzard feeling that it was too much content for the price point so they cut it to use at a later date, but who knows, and finally, after saying repeatedly they wanted to fix the "loot issues" all they did was pick up a stick of shit, cover it in some shiny sparkly foil, buff and polish and say "hey look at this shiny new content guys, this will fix all those problems you guys were having back in the original release of the game" when in actual fact, nothing has changed, the only difference between now and then, is the number have gotten bigger, and there are fewer of them on each individual item, and it is this design philosophy that i have issues with, whether it be D3/WoW/SC2 (which i have never played beyond the free starter edition) or hearthstone (which should never have been released in the state it was in but that's a whole other conversation).

in short, the amount of money being raked in, and the fact they have cncelled this project titan allowing more developers to be placed in the different game franchises should mean that quality of changes increases, and as of right now, all i can see is a vast decrease in the quality of everything blizzard are pumping out, which is a shame as they used to be a shining bastion among the bottom feeders of the gaming industry in terms of product quality and innovation.

[Usagi Senshi]

they used to be a shining bastion among the bottom feeders of the gaming industry in terms of product quality and innovation.

Surprise twist ending: they still are, you just don't agree with their ever-changing game design.

Also, I agree with that other poster on the last page. Give this ability to warriors as they deserve it more considering its origins.