Did i do something wrong in calling out a raid member?

[Deleted]

Well we extended this week and the hunters cam back to me saying sorry they understand what i was trying to say and they are trying alot harder to max dps. So i guess it kinda worked. Hoping we get past the first 3 on monday had to call raid tonight since we didnt have people due to 1st may celebrations ( some witch thing).

[HeroicMythic]

Next time you see them, you ask them if they do not feel ashamed for ruining your sparetime.
If they lack dps, well that is a problem. If they lack motivation to get better, you are an idiot if you stick with them.

[Hyve]

It's perfectly natural for you to get annoyed if someone isn't performing at their maximum capacity, but if you're not an Officer, the best way to handle this would've been to talk to the Raid Leader / Officer(s) and have them approach the person and deal with the issue.

What you have done here though is now undermine your position on the raid team, you're no longer a calm level headed member of the team.

[mercutiouk]

Generally best route with this is to take a fairly solid amount of evidence, mention it to the raid lead, suggest you could show him the evidence and offer him an opinion on what you think the guys who's sucking might be doing wrong.

Approaching the guy in question will generally end in tears as no-one really likes being told they suck by a peer (you come over as narcissistic and smug). Shouting about in any form of public channel, same. Mentioning it a few times to the raid lead will be seen as politics he needs to deal with.

If you have a guild webpage with a forum that has a class section write some info about how you play it if you're one of the ones doing well.

I've guild led, raid led, class led, been the general "enforcer"/leg breaker/stick the GM used to beat ppl and just sat quietly and been a general raider so that's suggested with genuinely good intentions for an approach that should generally work from experience. If you come over as easy going, non-judgemental and helpful, you will usually get the folks that suck approach you for help.
As rogue lead I had a couple of folks who would read up on the "quick and dirty" guide I posted fairly religiously whenever there were changes and they needed to up their game . It's a much nicer way of offering improvement suggestions.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

The Hunter responding with a trollish "Good for him", was imo, way more rude than you asking him why the fuck he didn't want to improve.

Those players are the worst kind, and really shouldn't be raiding. If it was a one-time incident, that's fine, but if this is a regular thing, I suggest trying to find a new guild.

I fail to understand all the ppl saying that you shouldn't call him out over voice-chat. We ALWAYS do criticism over mumble, for the entire raid to hear, no matter if it's positive or negative. If ppl can't handle being asked simple questions without going all emo defensive mode, they shouldn't be in a raiding guild in the first place.

Also, guild members of equal rank, calling eachother out from time to time, on something they did wrong / places they could improve, sometimes have a bigger effect than the Officer crew that you have heard a thousand times before, doing it.

[ruuBEN]

My two cents:

To the people saying it's the raid leader/officers job to be calling members out like that, as well as "Well you aren't a realm first guild at this point..."

You're taking up xx amount of other peoples time. Presuming it's a 25 man raid, you're taking up 24+ (not counting those waiting) players time for something that can easily be fixed if you just put in some time to teach yourself and not be lazy/not care. I'm not saying their time is more precious than yours, but it's a common courtesy to show up and do you best in a sense.

And as for the "It's the officers job", any guild I've been in where this is the case is not that great of an environment. A guild is a community. Everyone should know one-another and respect one-another, imo. I've been a member of a few guilds (dont guild hop much) and not even at any higher-up rank other than just some raider, but several times I've "called out" another healer and saying "Youre method is all wrong and that's why we aren't passing this phase. Try: xyz" And tell them what to do. Arguably still rude, but you're there to get something done together -- and I'm not trying to be an ass. It's just helping for everyone.

OP -- Maybe you were a bit too angry. Present yourself nicer next time if you can and just apologize to everyone about the incident.

[MrExcelion]

Depends on the culture of the game, and whether it's your place or not. Always go through the proper channels. But yeah, strong guilds have to respect authority positions

[Bathory]

I feel like people SHOULD be called out if they are messing up. Constructively, not a personal attack "wtf you suck" over vent. But I would prefer it if someone told me when I was messing up so I could fix the issue, instead of being talked about behind my back/cut from raid. Too many people skate by because everyone eludes to the issue instead of facing it head on.

My last raid "well a few people seem to be having issues so etc etc". No, call those people out, talk to them, see what the issue is. Doesn't have to be on vent, could be in PM or whatever, but I absolutely despise when a raid group would rather skirt around the issue and fix it, than face it directly.

I ran a top raiding guild in vanilla and that's how I handled at least. My guys and girls were grateful and we kept pushing on. I didn't come at them with negativity, but I did say "hey, you're a little low, what's happening" and we'd troubleshoot as best we could. It wasn't anything personal, I made that clear, and I feel like that was one of the many reasons my guild bonded so well together.

Like someone else said, it's not just about that person, it's about the entire raid. If someone is under performing, it's a raid wide issue.

[theWocky]

I've always been a guy in life who was a leader rather than a follower. I have worked for three different people for about three years in total in my life.

When most of my guild got bored a bit during and almost all after WotLK and stopped subbing, I found myself in a guild as a member. I hated it to the point where I eventually just lost interest and then interest in serious raiding in mmo's in general - became a guy who still loves mmo's, but "a casual" who generally only bothered about the leveling experience and other PvE content. In Rift, I started a guild briefly as well. I lose drive and interest when I am not steering the helm.

I don't regard officers as leaders. I regard people I trust as as assistants, partners, advisers - people I delegate specific tasks too - for example - take care of the mages, check the guys have decent gear, etc. With the game not being 40 players any more and so many classes, I personally find "class" officers a bit redundant.

My guild was me as raid/guild leader - with three people who were essentially assistant raid leaders / helpers and were designated as such - the word "officer" never featured in my guild.

All I cared about from my team as a semi hardcore - two days a week raiding - sometimes (rarely) three - is the following (in no particular order):

1. are you making an effort?
1a. are you gemmed correctly - does rare gear have rare gems? does epic gear have rare / epic gems?
1b. are all items enchanted correctly?
2. are you adequate at the job you are doing (average is adequate)
3. do we have enough total dps to down the boss?
4. is your gear adequate for the boss?
5. are you capable of following and learning instructions?
Hopefully - all people play the game for fun. Some people don't DPS as well as others.

If the guild leader or designated assistants in the guild is not complaining about the damage, then you should have spoken to the raid leader afterwards, not during the raid. It is the responsibility of the guild leader to do the "calling out" and reprimanding and accept any and all responsibility as well as flak / hatred - not yours - you will polarize the guild towards you.

One other thing - any guy who actually placed some significance in my guild on being an "officer" was usually someone I didn't want helping me. It's a friggin' PC game, not a military rank.

Regarding your actions - as an analogy - you don't blurt out instructions mid-battle in an encounter - that is insubordination. You follow your superior's orders. Not following orders usually gets yourself and your squad killed.

[Khorm]

The time when you find yourself calling people out is the time to think about moving on. It means you want it more than them and it is going to keep eating away at you.

[Bryntrollian]

Sounds like you should quietly struggle through the rest of this tier and " secretly " move to a hardcore progression guild come WOD if there are players in the raid slacking off, but I could be wrong. Logs are needed for a more accurate analysis.

[Theholypally]

There will always be conflict in calling people out publicly. I encourage it, in a stern way...tone is everything. Some are receptive to pressure, some aren't but you can't please everyone. In family oriented, casual "hardcore" type guilds the main focus is to please everyone first, progression is usually a close second. Offending or making anyone defensive is a no no and looked down upon but it's needed if the guild wants to progress any further. If someone isn't performing up to task it affects the entire raid, not just one person.

If the response to a simple question like why is this persons damage so low in comparison to these two is a snarky ass remark, versus an explanation or at least "i'll try to do better" then i'd have likely replaced them. Just because someone isn't an officer doesn't mean they have the right to disregard a question that is potentially causing them progression towards a kill.

I'm sorry to say this but when it comes to raiding, its less about one persons feelings and more about how the raid can do better to down content. That sometimes involves a little confrontation so they get their heads out of their ass.

Here is an example: In my previous guild, a dedicated member of our raid core decided that he had enough (he wasnt an officer) and he has extensive knowledge on how to delve into details of a fight and look at things that even the officers didn't bother looking at...what he found was rather troubling. Of all the DPS in the raid, only FOUR members were performing at 90th percentile for their damage class...one warlock, one DK, one hunter, one ret paladin....the rest were performing below SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT. The officers never even bothered to look into things like that, he did. He caught it, and told the officers about it. The officers did nothing. So he posted it, and got flamed by the people who were under the gun. It was the right thing to do, because it lit a fire that even the officers can't ignore: should we keep under-performing players or look into replacing them?

Thats the kind of initiative thats needed in guilds like that because sometimes, a kick in the ass IS whats needed. Most officers in those guilds are passive...as long as they field a raid they really don't care what happens unless something drastic occurs...why wait until the bigger problems start happening? Get the ball rolling early, get it posted in the guild forums, and get people active and talking about it.

[Itisamuh]

No offense, but you're an example of why I'll never get into raiding. It's a game, and I won't treat it like a job or let someone try to make me.

[Theholypally]

No offense, but you're an example of why I'll never get into raiding. It's a game, and I won't treat it like a job or let someone try to make me.

I'm not offended at all.

No one is asking the world of you. If they said "you are not performing as well as you could be, can you step it up next week/next raid?" and you take that personally then you probably made the correct decision in not raiding. It's a game, correct, it's also extremely frustrating dealing with people who have the attitude of "you can't make me do this" taking up space in the raid group.

My main spec is healing, i enjoy it, i've been healing since vanilla. When we overflowed on healers i was asked to build a raid ready, heroic progression retribution set and learn it to compete with other DPS. I did it, because the raid asked me to because that's what was needed. Do i enjoy DPSing? sure, but i am far more comfortable healing. If the raid needs someone to perform better, or in a different area, and they refuse to simply because "you cant make me" then i wouldn't want to raid with them either, no offense.

[Khorm]

No offense, but you're an example of why I'll never get into raiding. It's a game, and I won't treat it like a job or let someone try to make me.

And what amateur rugby/football/baseball etc. team goes out to lose? Raid teams are like sport teams. You're there to play your best for your team mates and yourself. Letting yourself and your team down is a raider's worst fear and something that he strives to not happen. Mistakes will always occur and everyone will make them, but to intentionally waste people's time with IDGAF attitude is not what it is about. I doubt anyone who takes that attitude to raiding has ever played a team sport or been part of a team environment.

[kamuimac]

And what amateur rugby/football/baseball etc. team goes out to lose? Raid teams are like sport teams.

amateur sport team usually dont have a bench of 5 people , constant evaluation of performance of their memebrs and arent constantly looking for new players to replace those ones who realise that they cba to deal with no life morons who treat this sports team as their life goal only as 1-2/week activity to have fun and stay healthy after posibly siting 8 hours/day in office at desk. constructive cirticism is good but i doubt many people would last for long in team where pimple teenager would contstantly call them out for not playing liek they should be - irl such person would be probably nicely but firmly said "dont come back next week if u have to behave like shit" - amateur sports team usually value beer after game with friends more then game itself.

if u like sports comparisons look at San Marino footbal representation - its filled with people for whom football is after work activity (i belive they have lawyer, hairdresser and other normal job people) they go to each world championships without a chance to win a single game yet it gives them happines and makes them proud that they can play - this is what i would define as "Casual" approach.

OP has started in his first post with "We are a semi casual guild " - not with we are semi hardcore or we are hardcore guild - if u join a guild which defines its progress as casual then u should have casual aproach to shit - if he wants hardcore he can join one of thousand guilds which defiene themselves as hardcore.

[zoefschildpad]

I've played with some people (myself included to be quite honest) who do shitty dps on new bosses for a while until they learn the mechanics of a particular fight. It's a learning process. In fact, in my old guild half the raid seemed to have that problem. When we got the hang of the fight the dps numbers usually shot right up

[Khorm]

amateur sport team usually dont have a bench of 5 people , constant evaluation of performance of their memebrs and arent constantly looking for new players to replace those ones who realise that they cba to deal with no life morons who treat this sports team as their life goal only as 1-2/week activity to have fun and stay healthy after posibly siting 8 hours/day in office at desk. constructive cirticism is good but i doubt many people would last for long in team where pimple teenager would contstantly call them out for not playing liek they should be - irl such person would be probably nicely but firmly said "dont come back next week if u have to behave like shit" - amateur sports team usually value beer after game with friends more then game itself.

Not sure where you are from but amateur leagues have a grading system. The old 3rd graders want that beer after the game but the 1st graders play hard.

[Theholypally]

I've played with some people (myself included to be quite honest) who do shitty dps on new bosses for a while until they learn the mechanics of a particular fight. It's a learning process. In fact, in my old guild half the raid seemed to have that problem. When we got the hang of the fight the dps numbers usually shot right up

Learning a fights mechanics is a different issue. The learning phase of a fight might be different for everyone, but once the fight is learned, or it is on farm, there should be no excuse for poor dps, especially with gear.

Also: If you are going into a fight blind...as in, no prior research, no knowledge of mechanics, then yes your dps is likely to be poor in comparison to someone who came prepared for the encounter. Before you say it's an elitist approach to raiding, consider this: it takes 10min to research a boss fight on youtube. It's not hardcore.

Even the most casual guilds can get on board with coming to fight somewhat prepared to raid.

[MerinPally]

Normal way to deal with this is to whisper the raid leader and if they don't reply or don't say anything, ask them after the raid. Was the way it always happened when I raid lead and I took a lot of my tips from one of my old raid leaders and that always worked pretty well too.