Do you want Tier Skips in WoD??

[Kickbuttmario]

Its a solid question. Blizzard doesn't want it because they think the past is the past and for last tiers, it is the past. However, it is interesting to really think about how they can deal with the problem of players having too little to do when it comes to raiding. Why raid tier 14 when we can raid t16. Why keep seeing this raid over and over again? I am tired of this place.

There is no doubt in my mind that Blizzard has done an incredible job at designing their content. Not to mention, they may have just created the best raiding system out there. Flexible Technology being used on both Normal and Heroic Modes, and the 20 Man Mythic Mode. With this system, it makes me question on whether or not we truly need a tier skip system in WoD. Think about it.

Depending on how they choose to make their ilevels for LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic, they could make a system where no tier skips is even needed. Depending on how this works, the idea of guilds poaching other guilds for players may not even occur. Since tanks don't require defense cap requirements, or hit and expertise requirements are no longer needed either, there is very little to worry about when it comes to raiding or meeting specific requirements for specific bosses (mostly mythic though). It will mostly be specific class requirements (which has been a problem since launch).

I don't know if anyone here agrees but I do think that allowing tier skips to occur isn't the best way for players to move forward. Especially an old veteran player like myself who started playing again after 2 years since Firelands launch and am kinda disappointed that I can't do content like ToT or the t14 raids without feeling some sort of actual character progression. Just a thought.

Posted this on WoW Forums by the way.

[crakerjack]

Progression only works one way. TBC did it the best. Remove all the difficulties and let there only be one. The only sacrifice is that a portion of the player base won't see all the content. Also no new heroics with every raid, that is unless the Ilvl of gear is equal to the heroics at launch. Heroics dropping gear equal to or better than the previous raid only cuts away at progression. They would also have to avoid nerfing content over the course of the expansion so that it doesn't become stupidly easy due to a mixture of nerfs and people having better gear.

[huth]

Progression only works one way. TBC did it the best. Remove all the difficulties and let there only be one. The only sacrifice is that a portion of the player base won't see all the content.

That's pretty much a death sentence for the TBC model.

[Bearshield]

That's pretty much a death sentence for the TBC model.

I agree with the guy who posted it though, the game was better then and I say that as someone who didn't finish Naxx 40 or Sunwell when they were current. Ever since Blizz came out multiple difficulties, the amount of content we get has gone down. MoP has probably been the worst for it since prior to this xpack we at least got new 5 mans throughout the expansion. I'd much rather have new content to work toward then to know after I clear a dungeon on normal, I get to spend months re-doing it all on heroic.

[Abbzow]

I agree with the guy who posted it though, the game was better then and I say that as someone who didn't finish Naxx 40 or Sunwell when they were current. Ever since Blizz came out multiple difficulties, the amount of content we get has gone down. MoP has probably been the worst for it since prior to this xpack we at least got new 5 mans throughout the expansion. I'd much rather have new content to work toward then to know after I clear a dungeon on normal, I get to spend months re-doing it all on heroic.

Agree...I mean like, if people had to work to finish it (whether it be normal/hc) people wouldn't finish the raids so quick and be bored for the next 11 months.
Yeah sure, only a small amount of people have finished Garrosh on HC, but the thing isn't about HC, it's about actually clearing the raid all together and then be finished with it. SoO could be atleast 12 months + without any darn complaints of no content if they had to actually progress through the raid and not go clearing it within 2 weeks of release and then say that they´re bored.

[Constraint]

I completely agree. One difficulty was excellent.

I keep hearing all this nonsense about how if you started playing mid-TBC, you were fucked - you couldn't get into a good raiding guild because you were late to the party, and they didn't want to go back and gear you up in older raids.

But that's just stupid. There were guilds in every level of progression, all over the place. You weren't SUPPOSED to just jump into a BT-level guild if you had no raiding experience. Join a guild doing Kara/Gruul/Mag and moving into SSC/TK, play your way through the content in the way it was designed to be played through.

I think it's a crying shame, nowadays. Great raid tiers just.. gone, when the next tier hits - used only for bot-filled rage-consumed LFR runs for people who need to grind out their legendary collections on alts. What a waste.

[PrairieChicken]

Yes tier skips are absolutely needed. Attunements are stupid barriers for entry and just results in massive guild poaching and drama. I might approve something like legacy mode where previous contents are scaled up to the current one but running previous tiers should never be mandatory. New patch everyone does new stuff.

[Krommm]

I liked the TBC model, but it would be hell for newcomers and sometimes rerolls without any gear catchup mechanisms. It is great to be able to clear everything and get reasonable progression, but the tier skip since I suppose ICC heroic 5 mans allows for people to jump into the latest raid which is the reason why some of those people are playing to begin with. Really it's dandy for us who want to gruel through all the raids if we are late or stuck, but it's also easy to say so when most raiders posting here have cleared most content when it was current. It's not always about us.

[Trubo]

I am opposed to tier skips but also dislike attunements on a character-by-character basis as well. Account-wide attunements and smaller ilvl jumps between tiers I feel would be a better middle ground. For an ilvl example:

Tier 16
-----
LFR = 640 (dunno what the actual ilvl will be, just need a point of reference)
Normal = 650
Heroic = 660
Mythic = 670

Tier 17
---
LFR = 655
Normal = 665
Heroic = 675
Mythic = 685

Tier 18
---
LFR = 670
Normal = 680
Heroic = 690
Mythic = 700

This would accomplish the following:

1. New content gear will always be better than old content gear of the same difficulty.
2. New content gear of one difficulty lower will only be slightly better than old content gear.
3. New content gear two difficulties lower than a difficulty from the previous tier will never be stronger stat-wise than the previous tier.
4. Smaller ilvl jumps throughout the expansion.

[Kezmaefele]

No. This argument was lost years ago when patch 2.4 came out with Badge of Justice Gear. It should have been hammered home when Naxx25 came out with Wrath. It should have been further smashed into your brains when every raid tier since has been the same. We are not going back to your halcyon days of yore.

[huth]

Agree...I mean like, if people had to work to finish it (whether it be normal/hc) people wouldn't finish the raids so quick and be bored for the next 11 months.

There were lots of people in BC who wanted to, but simply couldn't afford to put in the "work" in a freakin' game. If you have to work for a game, something is wrong from the get-go.

[Bullettime]

I liked the TBC model, but it would be hell for newcomers and sometimes rerolls without any gear catchup mechanisms. It is great to be able to clear everything and get reasonable progression, but the tier skip since I suppose ICC heroic 5 mans allows for people to jump into the latest raid which is the reason why some of those people are playing to begin with. Really it's dandy for us who want to gruel through all the raids if we are late or stuck, but it's also easy to say so when most raiders posting here have cleared most content when it was current. It's not always about us.

Which is why it won't happen again.

I don't mind tier skips but I don't like completely devaluing the old content either. I actually liked when ICC came out, people were still doing Onyxia, ToC 25, and ToGC 10 for loot supplements for alts as it was decently easy, fast, and bridged a gap between dungeon gear and ICC 10m. Dungeon gear was good enough to jump into ICC 10 when the nerf was ramping up, but people were still doing the older stuff regularly for the power boost between lockouts.

There were lots of people in BC who wanted to, but simply couldn't afford to put in the "work" in a freakin' game. If you have to work for a game, something is wrong from the get-go.

An MMORPG isn't the right game for you. The best reward in an MMO comes from putting in time, effort, and work. The BC model had a fair share of problems that's for sure but if someone doesn't want to work for anything in an MMO, they don't deserve the content. People nowadays can't even be arsed to spend 10 minutes forming their own flex run. They would rather click "join queue" and wait 20 minutes for LFR with inferior just so they don't have to form the group manually.

This is even why Normal (flex) is keeping tier and LFR is losing it. You should be rewarded for putting in effort to do organized content.

[l33t]

I totally loved the BC model of raiding. Though it is unrealistic to think people could play something like that nowadays. For some reason, people became spoiled over easy effortless lootz, and they usually start a whining campaign when they have to "work" to gain anything in-game. Me personally, I still blame generation of "everybody wins, nobody is a looser" for this.

[Srg56]

Progression only works one way. The only sacrifice is that a portion of the player base won't see all the content.

That's why LFR exists, to see the content.

[Bullettime]

I totally loved the BC model of raiding. Though it is unrealistic to think people could play something like that nowadays. For some reason, people became spoiled over easy effortless lootz, and they usually start a whining campaign when they have to "work" to gain anything in-game. Me personally, I still blame generation of "everybody wins, nobody is a looser" for this.

The BC model failed because the downside to tier progression with no passing mechanisms are guilds towards the bottom being forced into a position of being "farm guilds" for higher raiders. By about the middle of the expansion, your guild's progression rank was largely locked in. You were either in a guild working on Hyjal or you were a guild doing Kara and having your geared players snatched up constantly by the server top guilds as the model left those guilds with no other way to recruit except to poach from those lower guilds.

The "tier skip" and sort of soft reset each tier serves not only to allow alts and new players to catch up but also aids in keeping guilds and raid teams together and progressing.

In some cases, the tier skip has gone too far. ToT shouldn't have been 100% invalidated by the opening of Siege. But going back to the BC model would be disastrous. The Wrath model I thought was about perfect where you used dungeons AND the older raids as proper catch up. Gearing your alt or new guy for Ulduar? Steamrolling Naxx was an option and the player can also use the Argent Tournament 5 man. Gearing for ToC? Early Ulduar bosses and Argent Tournament worked perfect for this. LFR unfortunately has the side effect of making old content entirely obsolete as it loses its purpose.

[Kickbuttmario]

Why are you people assuming I want to go back to the TBC model?? No, I am just saying allowing a system with tier skips isn't fun. However, going back to attunements and TBC 1 raid model only isn't fun either.

Trubo has the right idea.

[fengosa]

The BC model failed because the downside to tier progression with no passing mechanisms are guilds towards the bottom being forced into a position of being "farm guilds" for higher raiders. By about the middle of the expansion, your guild's progression rank was largely locked in. You were either in a guild working on Hyjal or you were a guild doing Kara and having your geared players snatched up constantly by the server top guilds as the model left those guilds with no other way to recruit except to poach from those lower guilds.

The "tier skip" and sort of soft reset each tier serves not only to allow alts and new players to catch up but also aids in keeping guilds and raid teams together and progressing.

In some cases, the tier skip has gone too far. ToT shouldn't have been 100% invalidated by the opening of Siege. But going back to the BC model would be disastrous. The Wrath model I thought was about perfect where you used dungeons AND the older raids as proper catch up. Gearing your alt or new guy for Ulduar? Steamrolling Naxx was an option and the player can also use the Argent Tournament 5 man. Gearing for ToC? Early Ulduar bosses and Argent Tournament worked perfect for this. LFR unfortunately has the side effect of making old content entirely obsolete as it loses its purpose.

The legendary quest kind of helped with having people run all the content in order to complete the chain. The issue is that you really only need to do it once and there's no incentive to go back and do the content again once you have that part of the chain done. What I'd like to see is some sort of weekly quest like in wrath where 'XXXX must die' that sends you back to MSV, HoF, terrace or ToT to kill one of the bosses there. Instead of rewarding valor/emblems it can reward a cache with crafting mats like spirit of harmony, spirit of war, battle pets, mounts, etc.

[Edds]

I keep hearing all this nonsense about how if you started playing mid-TBC, you were fucked - you couldn't get into a good raiding guild because you were late to the party, and they didn't want to go back and gear you up in older raids.

people keep guild hopping. so guilds keep losing members then hiring new players so they have to keep refarming the same raids by then more people will leave to join better guilds

sure it happens now but it was worse back then during sunwell

[Deleted]

I agree with the guy who posted it though, the game was better then and I say that as someone who didn't finish Naxx 40 or Sunwell when they were current. Ever since Blizz came out multiple difficulties, the amount of content we get has gone down. MoP has probably been the worst for it since prior to this xpack we at least got new 5 mans throughout the expansion. I'd much rather have new content to work toward then to know after I clear a dungeon on normal, I get to spend months re-doing it all on heroic.

I don't think the game was better back then, same for vanilla. Probably the worst two expansion of the entire game so far.

They had good elements but they couldn't outweigh all the bad elements there were and that ratio was 1:10.

Everyone feels it was better because of nostalgia and that makes it very hard for most people to be objective about it. Nostalgia in the sense of, everything back then felt epic because it was completely new, now it's old so it's obviously less fun simply because of that.

[eillas]

As someone who was a guild leader in TBC. Hell no. That was extremely flawed.