Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[Kellhound]

Except Russia does not take much debts. And EU takes debts to reduce taxing of international-exporting corporations

Russia also has very little beyond raw materials to offer the world.

[mmokri]

Correction, Russian frozen accounts are paying for ukraine

Do you understand that EU is going to lose another one+ billion per year because Russians are not going to hold money in EU.
Also link sources please. I doubt EU top economics are such dumbasses like some eastern europe US lapdogs.

[Ravenblade]

Because Western media was mostly "haha, Crazy russians seeing Nazis everywhere"; and in the end European politicians decided that even "strongly condemning" them is too much.

So no source then. Western media != EU and European politicians != EU. We had local state politicians quoted and then it was represented as "Germany said" lol.

I have also heard of this kind of representation first time really. If any they criticized that everyone not Russian was called a nazi or fascist and frankly it was a lot like that. Made the real nazis who lived back then being diminished to mere street thugs. I also detest squandering that term really on those people, call them neonazis, radical nationalists and right-wing extremists. But on the whole reserve those terms for those who actually are committed to that ideology and do not use it as blanket term for any. So again, this doesn't count as downplaying, being able to differentiate is not the same as downplaying.

If Russia have not been investing in Ukraine perhaps we could consider withdrawal... but we had those investments, some spanning multiple decades like in case of Crimea, so we could not.

You are missing my point. Ukrainian government wasn't about signing a treaty with Russia, it was signing an agreement with the EU. The only party who said there can be no trade with us if you sign this was Russia and they upped their offer. So an agreement which consisted more than of a mere "have some cheap gas and economic benefits" was dropped. And you say EU should have accepted their silly counter-offer or have withdrawn yet you say that Russia would not have withdrawn either. Sure they could have integrated Russia more in their dealings from the beginning and it would probably have been better than a tug-of-war they had engaged in but procedurally EU did nothing wrong. If the Yanukovych government was not interested in it at all they could have stopped the process very early but they were interested, just not interested in resolving the last issue, in having Tymoshenko treated abroad ...but I wrote all this already some pages ago.

Well, you could threaten to pull off those programmes. For opposition that depended on EU support because it was their stated goal that might have been enough; perhaps not for radicals but not everyone supported radicals even if they "won".

So you suggest the EU in addition to withdrawal should have also engaged in breaking treaties and leave all those individuals who had nothing to do with it stranded just achieve what? Nothing. The radical faction around Svoboda would have loved nothing more than the EU pulling out. One thing to learn to deal with radicals is: Do not give them what they want. Instead have people who benefited from an institution criticized by those radicals telling their positive stories about it thus diminishing their often hollow ideologies about it.

That's the agreement i'm talking about. Apparently it wasn't worth paper it was printed on. Or perhaps there was discussion on should or should not you enforce it?
...but result was still that you didn't. And that made you look like a party that doesn't follow on their own agreements when it fits them, not a good sign at all. That obviously undermined your later diplomatic efforts.

He fled the country because he was threatened. If you would enforce terms of your own agreement he could return. When you didn't he obviously had no reason to.

Wrong, I (hereby addressed as "you") as citizen of my country had no means to enforce it, and neither had the EU, or Germany as part of the trio of those who tried to enforce it. Unless you have ideas how to accomplish that. None had foreseen that it was just being junk paper a day later so anything said in retrospect is rather irrelevant. It was an agreement between both parties where the three EU foreign ministers mainly acted as mediators, accusing mediators of failing to enforce things is well...ridiculous? What if both parties incl. the more quick tempered factions had kept their calm and stuck to it? This is after all how most agreements between parties are supposed to work, if you require heavy-handed enforcements every time you might as well just save yourself the time wasted on agreements because there was nothing to agree about in first place.

Ratification where and by whom? News about it seem to end on the day of Poroshenko signing it on 27th June.

I am surprised that you criticize the EU so much for the agreement but have no actual knowledge about the mechanics behind.
Makes me wonder whether you oppose the EU for the sake of opposing the EU because they are a perpetually valid target similar to the US.

In short: One man cannot sign an association agreement and be done with it. He signed the DFTA part on June but in the end all signatories have to ratify it. That's including the parliamentary institutions and assents of the involved parties (EU member countries and Ukraine).

[Deleted]

Just to make it more clear how little 7 billion is to the EU; 7 billion is 0,04% of the EU's GDP.

[bufferunderrun]

France economy isn't doing well, Italy still in recession and even Germany has begun a slowing down process; 3 of the major exporter to Russia are crippling themeself even more to appease a mind boggling turf war over few Nato bases, ill bet that in october when sanctions are discussed again someone is gonna veto them.

[mmokri]

Just to make it more clear how little 7 billion is to the EU; 7 billion is 0,04% of the EU's GDP.

Only if EU is going to compenaste all loses of certain losers communism-style. Aka redistribution of wealth.

[Deleted]

Do you understand that EU is going to lose another one+ billion per year because Russians are not going to hold money in EU.
Also link sources please. I doubt EU top economics are such dumbasses like some eastern europe US lapdogs.

Oh no that's an extra 0,005% of our GDP that's gonna be lost we're dooooomed.

- - - Updated - - -

Only if EU is going to compenaste all loses of certain losers communism-style. Aka redistribution of wealth.

I don't think you know what communism is.

[mmokri]

France economy isn't doing well, Italy still in recession and even Germany has begun a slowing down process; 3 of the major exporter to Russia are crippling themeself even more to appease a mind boggling turf war over few Nato bases

Do you understand that its US-Brits talking above, they are not going to lose anything. Because they are too far away.

[Crispin]

Do you understand that EU is going to lose another one+ billion per year because Russians are not going to hold money in EU.
Also link sources please. I doubt EU top economics are such dumbasses like some eastern europe US lapdogs.

Well that last billion will surely bring us down..

You dont get it do you? Russian sanctions are an inconvenience, they arent going to change the EU no matter how much you would want to see it, sorry but Russia is not a match for the west on any accounts.

[Kellhound]

Do you understand that its US-Brits talking above, they are not going to lose anything. Because they are too far away.

Because they are smart enough to not get tied to Russia's economy.

[Cybran]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion...e-can-be-naive

Nicholson summed up the hypocrisy of Canada’s latest gesture by stating that “(Russian President Vladimir) Putin’s failure to end his support to armed rebel groups constitutes a real threat to international peace and security.”

If Putin is wrong for furnishing military aid in an escalating civil war, how can Canada be right for adding its own military hardware to the same equation?

It is similarly difficult to understand how Prime Minister Stephen Harper can beat his chest and declare his own strength of character for imposing trade sanctions against Russia, yet when Putin finally imposed reciprocal bans on Canadian products last week, Harper said this only indicated Moscow’s “desperation.”

The same double standard of judgment has been applied since the outset of the crisis last December. In those early days, masses of pro-Western demonstrators took to the streets of Kyiv to protest the pro-Russian politics of elected President Viktor Yanukovych. Marching arm-in-arm with them was none other than Canada’s controversial Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird.

In subsequent months, the demonstrations turned far more violent when neo-Nazi radicals, such as the Right Sector and Svoboda Party, occupied Independence Square and clashed with riot police. On Feb. 20, after security forces fired on the crowds, Yanukovych was forced from office and soundly demonized in the Western media for having used excessive force against “his own people.” In total, the clashes in Kyiv during the Mayden Revolution phase resulted in the tragic deaths of about 77 Ukrainians.

Fast forward to the present. What began with eastern Ukrainian pro-Russian demonstrators denouncing the interim, post-Yanukovych, pro-Western Kyiv authority has quickly escalated into an almost full-scale civil war. Instead of Yanukovych’s riot police shooting rifles into a crowd, Ukrainian military forces are employing artillery, tanks, combat aircraft and even short-range ballistic missiles against pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk. It is estimated that some 1,100 Ukrainians have been killed in these clashes, many of them innocent civilians.

If Yanukovych was a monster for using force against his own people, how can we not condemn newly elected President Petro Poroshenko for doing the same?

For the simple-minded who believe in a world of clear-cut good versus evil, wherein the just wear white hats and the scumbags wear black hats, it could be argued that being pro-Western means being pro-freedom and pro-democracy. Ergo, if anyone chooses to reject those two unassailable virtues, they deserve whatever fate awaits them.

However, another violent clash Thursday in Kiev’s Independence Square served to illustrate that Baird may have once again been a little off in his judgment of a situation that is far more complex than he originally grasped.

During the last five months, the radical mob that led to Yanukovych’s ouster has never relinquished its occupation of Independence Square. When security forces under the direction of Poroshenko tried to forcibly remove the occupiers, they were met with a hail of Molotov cocktails, billy clubs and chains. Turns out that the “freedom lovers” with whom Baird once so happily marched are in fact anarchist thugs, neo-Nazis and hooligans.

The irony of all this is that Baird accuses Putin of having “let slip the dogs of war” to ignite the current crisis, when Baird himself was the one unlatching the kennels.

At least some people can see the hypocrisy.

[bufferunderrun]

Do you understand that its US-Brits talking above, they are not going to lose anything. Because they are too far away.

yea i know but i think that miss Merkel isn't gonna let them decide this time, i trust her.

[mmokri]

Because they are smart enough to not get tied to Russia's economy.

Because they are too far away. Read pls again.

[Cybran]

yea i know but i think that miss Merkel isn't gonna let them decide this time, i trust her.

Why would you? She would fuck over every other EU country to save Germany like she has been doing for the last 6 years.

[Deleted]

Because they are too far away. Read pls again.

Alaska is right next to Siberia dude.

[Crispin]

Ofcourse Merkel will force the EU into taking a different course than GB and the US, the 8 billion loss definately warrants that the western powers split up on this matter.

Frances economy havent been doing too well for a long time, same goes for italy, Germany is Germany, I have no concerns for their economy, ordnung muss sein and all that.

[Kellhound]

Because they are too far away. Read pls again.

Proximity does not always equate to strong ties, nor does distance mean ties are not strong. It is never wise to get too tied up with Russia.

[mmokri]

Alaska is right next to Siberia dude.

Sure Alaska and Siberia can trade snow with each other.

[Kellhound]

Sure Alaska and Siberia can trade snow with each other.

Lol, Siberia is all Russia has going for it!

[Deleted]

Sure Alaska and Siberia can trade snow with each other.

You know nothing of Siberia's economy do you?