Analysis of the Level 45 Talent Tier

[Lavindar]

Update: Here is the link to the topic on the official forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12945804730#1

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Ok, I have see a lot of people expressing their dislike of the level 45 talent tier, aka T45. Personally I don't really like the tier very much, but as a software developer, I believe that just expressing the fact that we do not like it or just coming with new ideas to replace them is not really a meaningful way to give feedback. So I decided to make an analysis of the actual situation of the tier and reasons why I don't like it.

That said, I have a really short time to play and am not doing anything really advanced, also I have been playing only Enhancement and only in PvE content, so I would like if you guys could help me gather feedback.

Before I start, I would like if you focused your feedback on the actual situation and not on changes/replacements you would like to see.

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Call of the Elements

First, this is the totens that it affects:

Capacitor Totem
Grounding Totem
Earthbind Totem/Earthgrab Totem
Tremor Totem
Healing Stream Totem
Stone Bulwark Totem
Windwalk Totem

Ok, I never really used this talent, as I don't like this type of mechanic. While I can see some cases where this talent can be used in PvE, I never really was in a situation where I thought that the benefit would be enough for the extra hassle of having to use the skill.

Another problem that I see is that you would want to use all the affected totems before using this spell, what in my opinion is just added complexity that don't really gave any gameplay benefit.

Now, analyzing the affected totems individually:

Capacitor Totem
If used right could be very good, but with the complexity of Capacitor totem itself is not something easy to pull off. With a skilled team it's doable so I belive in this case it represents good gameplay.

Grounding Totem
Grounding itself is a very usefull totem, with a good sense of prediction, it could change the outcome of a battle, but I belive that Grounding has a small enought cooldown that could make it not worth.

Earthbind Totem/Earthgrab Totem
With the fact that in this case we would not have Projection, and by the very nature of the use of the totems, the only case I can see of benefical of using it is for double root with Earthgrab.

Tremor Totem
I think Tremor if a very good choice to use Call, seeing as it's a very good effect, and has a somewhat long cooldown. Other than that I see it more or less at the same level of grounding.

Healing Stream Totem
I belive it is the case of just casting it if on cooldown and not using any other water totem, when casting call for another totem, the downsize of this is the use of another GCD.

Stone Bulwark Totem
As Bulwark is a totem that we should try to use for the whole duration, the best way I can think of, is to reset it's cooldown to use it again if whe had to replace it with another earth totem.

Windwalk Totem
Windwalk is to roots and snares what Tremor is for Fears/Charms/Sleep so I belive we can apply the same logic to it.


Totemic Persistence

This is my talent of choice for most of the time, but mostly for the fact that it's really just a big quality-of-life, as outside of very specifics situations (in PvE anyway, maybe in PvP it has more frequent uses), it will mostly help when you cast a totem by mistake. It also don't affect fire totems because this is not intended as a throughput tier, but it could really would help if it avoided our fire elemental to not be overwrite by searing. (If you use Primal Elementalist you can use nopet in a macro to avoid this.)

Also, I don't really want to ask for chances, but as this talent affect the "Only one totem per element at a time" rule, and I am one who believes that this rule is outdated with the new paradigm of totems, it became one of the things I dislike about this totem, event through I use it.

Something that was noted is that in WoD this talent will have only one water totem, for Resto this is not an issue.

Another point that this talent makes more clear whit the system of only one element is that we have the effect of what I call negative synergy, in the earth element, with Stone Bulwark, Earthgrab, and Primal Elementalist, all focusing long cooldowns.

Totemic Projection

The concept of the talent is very good, the problem I see is in how it was implemented.

The fact that it moves every totem you have placed at the moment, and there are some totems you want to put at the feet of your enemies, others you want as far as possible, for example, wanting to put a capacitor totem near an enemy while a healing tide totem is up. So sometimes you would like to move just one totem and some totems you wont ever want to move anyway.

Another thing is that the totems are placed in they default square position around the center of the reticule, with is something that in the middle of a battle will only add complexity without any counter-benefit.


Another thing that is not directly associated to any one of the talents, but as the tier is focused on totems it is relevant, with is the fact that after the MoP overhaul of the totem system, we changed from a system in which we used totems as groups composed of a combination of totems, with only situational uses where we would use a totem individually. Now we only have totems that we use and plan individually, but the system is still built with the "catch all" approach, not only with the talents, but even with the recall spell.
I believe this approach of affecting all totems is going in the opposite idea of totems as potent cooldowns instead of the old buff sticks we had before.

The tier also can have the feeling that even if you don't pick any of the talents, it would not affect your performace, this is mostly a PvE thing, as the tier has more chances to be used in PvP.

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Ok guys, let me see your opinions and try and make a good feedback of what we don't like of the tier, just remember to focus on the current situation and avoid suggestions of replacements and changes.

[Teriz]

I largely agree.

Blizzard's goal with tier 45 was to give us a totem tier. Basically a tier that boosts our totems. The problem is that the tier is BORING, and some of the talents are just terrible, and really highlight the limits of the totem system.

Totemic Persistence and Totemic Projection are simply embarrassing.

-Persistence just highlights how outdated the totem system is by us still having that single element restriction on what are essentially cooldowns. At this point in WoW there's no reason why my Shaman shouldn't be able to drop multiple totems of the same element, since they aren't auras or buffs anymore.

-Projection has its uses but its really a cumbersome system. It would be far better if it operated like Trap Launcher. However, the fact that a basic Hunter ability is better designed than a Shaman talent is annoying in of itself.

CoE remains the only talent in that tier that is worthy of being a talent IMO. I'd like Blizzard to bring in more totems that this talent would benefit.

[Blithe]

Call of the Elements in my opinion doesn't fit so well in this tier, while Cold Snap, Preparation and Readiness all work as abilities for the Mage, Rogue and Hunter respectively, it just doesn't work so well for a class that has multiple short cooldown, short duration abilities. While logically it's probably the best on this tier due to being able to reset our major cooldowns, it's really not fitting due to the nature of totems.

I haven't used Totemic Persistence yet, and mainly because I feel that if I do, I'd be missing out on the extra use of my totems via Call of the Elements, or placement of important totems via Totemic Projection. Now this is of course the case with every talent tier, it feels like a much larger sacrifice. Totemic Persistence does a great job of outlying the problems with our outdated totemic system. While I still believe we should be able to use multiple totems of the same element, I'd rather we keep the 1 totem per element mechanic and just re-evaluate our totems, reducing the cooldowns and duration of them. For example, Stone Bulwark Totem lasts for 30 seconds, but because it's an Earth-element totem, we have to sacrifice it for our other important Earth-element totems. It would make better sense as a shield you just place on yourself, rather than a totem. This would free up plenty of room, and be a step in the right direction; a step that needs to be done for all of our totems.

My issues with Totemic Projection have been conveyed quite well by the above posters, it's definitely something that should become baseline even if it does not take the way of the Trap Launcher which I might add, is much easier to use and doesn't have near enough problems. There isn't too many things to say about this talent, other than it basically feels required for Capacitor Totem to be used properly (which is a design problem for Capacitor).

Call of the Elements should be removed, Totemic Persistence should be removed, with our totem duration reduced in relevance to their cooldowns, and Totemic Projection should become baseline for all specializations.

[Deleted]

Excellent first post.

Sadly it will get ignored, just like all of the other shaman posts do. Any good ideas to replace the t45 tier with something good will also be ignored, as blizzard have decided that they like it, even if no one else does, and so they're just going toput their fingers in heir ears and yell LALALALALALALALALALALA When anyone tries to suggest it's bad. Then they'll carry on trolling us by saying things like "but why do you want ghost wolf to be as good as what other classes get? We didn't design it to be as good as what everyone else has. Lololololol"

I love my shammy, but blizzard are starting to take the piss. We should stage a walkout. Get every shaman in the world, or as shaman as we can, to just not log in on certain days. Maybe then they would see how annoyed people are.

[Nebria]

Call of Elements
This is what I use mostly. There are situations were you use one type of totem for example tremor totem or wind walk totem.
And it can happen you have to use it while it still has cd. CoE helps here very good. I don't think it was made to use all cd totems before using it. It is there to give you the totems back you have used and you need now again.

Totem Persistance
It really does remove some clunkyness off the curren totem system. Personal I have not used it yet but might give it a try in PvP.

Totemic Projection
Sometimes I use it. Be it in PvE or PvP.
While I would like to see it to work like Trap Launcher I can understand where the current mechanic comes from.
Like Lavindar said we don't need to move all totems at the same time anymore. As ele I have 1 Totem all the time, so 2 or 3 at max where 2 are short living.
Well the current mechanic allows me to move the elementals totem, with a trap launcher mechanic that wouldn't work anymore.
On Immerseus you ca root some ooze and then teleport it to another pack to root it also some seconds later. Won't work with a trap launcher style.
So yea I would like to have both^^ A trap launcher and a way to move them later.


While I can understand that some talents should be baseline as they change some disadvantages of the totem system and be some really cool stuff at the same time,
I am not sure this is a good idea. I mean that is the point of the whole tier.
If they had to do new talents they would again do something which changes the mechanics to get something never was possible before. And we would again say "hey we want this baseline".
So I think they should keep it as it is. As talents. I have to admin I changed my view here.
IMO they just have to see if the can make something better.
Perhaps add a new base skill like trap launcher. And we can keep projection as talent. That way at least we could throw stun and root totems in a better way and still keep the move totems stuff. OR just add the trap launcher effect to only a handfull of totems and keep the "on your feet" for the others

[Goradan]

I largely agree.

Blizzard's goal with tier 45 was to give us a totem tier. Basically a tier that boosts our totems. The problem is that the tier is BORING, and some of the talents are just terrible, and really highlight the limits of the totem system.

Totemic Persistence and Totemic Projection are simply embarrassing.

-Persistence just highlights how outdated the totem system is by us still having that single element restriction on what are essentially cooldowns. At this point in WoW there's no reason why my Shaman shouldn't be able to drop multiple totems of the same element, since they aren't auras or buffs anymore.

-Projection has its uses but its really a cumbersome system. It would be far better if it operated like Trap Launcher. However, the fact that a basic Hunter ability is better designed than a Shaman talent is annoying in of itself.

CoE remains the only talent in that tier that is worthy of being a talent IMO. I'd like Blizzard to bring in more totems that this talent would benefit.

True all the tier3 talents for us should be baseline.

[Teriz]

Excellent first post.

Sadly it will get ignored, just like all of the other shaman posts do. Any good ideas to replace the t45 tier with something good will also be ignored, as blizzard have decided that they like it, even if no one else does, and so they're just going toput their fingers in heir ears and yell LALALALALALALALALALALA When anyone tries to suggest it's bad. Then they'll carry on trolling us by saying things like "but why do you want ghost wolf to be as good as what other classes get? We didn't design it to be as good as what everyone else has. Lololololol"

I love my shammy, but blizzard are starting to take the piss. We should stage a walkout. Get every shaman in the world, or as shaman as we can, to just not log in on certain days. Maybe then they would see how annoyed people are.

I think a better solution is to simply reroll and stop playing your Shaman. The Warlock population flatlined, and Blizzard revamped the class. Something similar needs to happen with Shaman for Blizzard to do a revamp.

I'm currently leveling my Druid and Mage alongside my Monk for WoD. Shaman remains my second favorite class, but if things don't change much for WoD, this will be the first expansion where I don't play my Shaman to max level.

[Raiju]

I think a better solution is to simply reroll and stop playing your Shaman. The Warlock population flatlined, and Blizzard revamped the class. Something similar needs to happen with Shaman for Blizzard to do a revamp.

I'm currently leveling my Druid and Mage alongside my Monk for WoD. Shaman remains my second favorite class, but if things don't change much for WoD, this will be the first expansion where I don't play my Shaman to max level.

Last time that was about to happen blizzard just decided to buff 2 of the specs significantly and 1 of them minorly. Sorta unlikely people are going to drop a class when for the first time ever really it was a top dps (enha 5.3)

[Shockeye]

CotE is more a PvP talent than for PvE, so it should be in the L30 tier (make Earthgrab a baseline replacement for Earthbind, having the two separate is just nonsensical). Totemic Projection absolutely should be baseline just like the Hunter's Trap Launcher is, and it should function the exact same way. That being a toggle on or off - if on, the totem will be manually placed at range, if off the totem just drops as per normal. As it stands we have to take a talent to get a badly implemented ability.
And Totemic Persistence, no-brainer as baseline to be honest. It's a basic QoL ability that fits the class as the only totem class.

[Krazzorx]

The problem to me is: its a utility for utility tier. There's not that much you can do there if they are insistent on a totem utility tier.

[Jinryu]

As a PVE Enhance shaman. I find CoE the only talent that possibility of being used in a given raid night, but even then I really don't even need it for most of the time. For the other 2, I have to actually search hard for reasons to even justify using them. I don't ever really have to drop two earth totems or water totems at the same time or project totems to some random spots. I hate this tree and the healing tree sooooo much.

[Deleted]

More comedy gold from Blizzard:

no, we're happy with Shamans having a totem tier, and see it getting decent usage, despite loudness from a few people.

So by decent usage I assume he means, "most people actually select one of the level 45 talents as opposed to just leaving it blank"?

and

What is 'par'? Should everyone be exactly equal in their movement capabilities?

Seriously think Blizzard are trolling us now.

[Jotaux]

I just find the whole tier very situational and honestly on most fights I could just leave that row blank. Usually I take totemic projection just in case and use call of the elements on malkarok for the double windwalk totem or for Garrosh so I can double stun transition 1 adds.

[Raiju]

Maybe we should start leaving the row blank just to make the message clear to blizzard.

[Deleted]

has any of u actually notice how many of our totems we are going to loose with the next expansion? Its kind of scary that for the last 4 years our totems were reduced with 50% or even more and what did we get in return? Nothing! Like atm how many totems are u actually casting per battle ? For the majority of the fights i as ele am using only Searing flame,stormlash and the Fire elemental thats it. GG at making our class feel special! And thanks for adding so many new totems and stuff which we can use all the time blizz! Also thanks for not giving any of our skills to other classes because boy ohhh boy that would really suck ass! Its a good thing you are removing our stormlash totem next expansion in order to reduce our button bloat because THAT will really fix our skill bloat with no problem not like making water/lightning shield permanent and weapon enchants permanent as well instead of forcing me to have them on my bars all the time because i have to recast them every 1h/wipe! And its brilliant that u have to take the stormlash away from us but its ok to give the mages a new raid dps buff since you know the other classes all have one but mages dont i guess u fixed that problem for the shamans didn't u ? -.-
At this point i am certain if i loose 1/2 of my brain in an accident and i manage to survive... i will still find those changes retarded! i wont be able to go to the toilet and take a piss by myself but I WILL KNOW that these things are just stupid

[Tiberria]

I think people should keep responding to that tweet and absolutely slam them with negative responses. He is basically saying that player feedback on that L45 talent tier (that is almost universally critical) is just "loudness" instead of a legitimate concern. Slam him with responses so he can just see how "loud" the Shaman community can be when the lead class designer acts in such an unprofessional manner.

Here is the link.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...21867151081473

[Lavindar]

I think people should keep responding to that tweet and absolutely slam them with negative responses. He is basically saying that player feedback on that L45 talent tier (that is almost universally critical) is just "loudness" instead of a legitimate concern. Slam him with responses so he can just see how "loud" the Shaman community can be when the lead class designer acts in such an unprofessional manner.

Here is the link.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...21867151081473

And what spaming him will benefit us? If only being loud would change anything we would not be in this post. What we need is to make our feedback good enough that they read it.

Anyway, I was very busy this week, but this weekend I will read the posts here and update the first post with all the feedback, and maybe will make a post on the official forums.

[Tiberria]

And what spaming him will benefit us? If only being loud would change anything we would not be in this post. What we need is to make our feedback good enough that they read it.

Anyway, I was very busy this week, but this weekend I will read the posts here and update the first post with all the feedback, and maybe will make a post on the official forums.

No, because if it's a few people giving him detailed, high quality feedback, he will continue to say "it's just the loud minority". Plus, you can't really give much detail in a 140 character limit. What we need is as many people as possible spamming them with the general idea that we find the L45 talent tier and Shaman's lack of movement speed options totally unacceptable.

[Lavindar]

No, because if it's a few people giving him detailed, high quality feedback, he will continue to say "it's just the loud minority". Plus, you can't really give much detail in a 140 character limit. What we need is as many people as possible spamming them with the general idea that we find the L45 talent tier and Shaman's lack of movement speed options totally unacceptable.

You don't need to give the whole feedback on twitter, they do read feedback if you send them the link, they even answer some of them.

[Tiberria]

You don't need to give the whole feedback on twitter, they do read feedback if you send them the link, they even answer some of them.

In general, it's a waste of time. If a couple of people write a long detailed post (a) they probably won't read it (b) if they do, they will dismiss it further as the "loud minority". Unfortunately, it's quantity (from quantity of different sources), not quality that we need at this point.