Replace Rune Regen Tier - Concrete Analysis

[Beefkow]

Yep, i hate the tier 75 talents as much as all of you, but hence DK talents are just dead and always will be dead (no pun attended).

I go blood tap most of the time because of on demand death rune and there is no RNG surrounding the talent, RE and RC are just dead to me, so the tier 75 just doesn't give me options... really.

[Deleted]

I don't macro BT in PvP and use RC in PvE. The only reason people seem to complain is that the talent tier is "boring" while we have so many problems that ACTUALLY MATTER. Like, you know, KM, or talent tiers that actually ARE messed up (talking AMZ and Asphyx/DA here).

[GiestKashmarr]

I agree that the Rune Regen Tier should be replaced with one baseline and glyphs for the other two.

The larger problem that others have also noticed is just the general disorganization of our talent tiers. We need the devs to reorganize the tiers so that each row is a choice among similarly themed abilities, for example:

Tier	Theme			Talent1		Talent2		Talent3
1	Diseases		Bearer		Leach		Blight
2	Personal Survival	Lichborne	Pact		Purgatory
3	Movement		Empowered DA	Grasp		Ground
4	Utility Survival	AMZ		Soul Pact	Mark of Blood
5	Control			Chilblains	Asphyxiate	Winter
6	Power Spend		Syndragosa	Conversion	Empowered Coil
7	Uses Death Rune		Necrotic	Defile		Empowered Reaper

I threw in a couple new abilities, Empowered DA (make DA with just the boost base line), Soul Pact (a spirit link totem ability between the DK and one person), Mark of Blood (the old ability), Empowered? Coil, and Empowered? Reaper. I'm sure we can come up with interesting and balanced abilities, but generally I hope they will stick to a theme for the abilities on each level of the tier.

[Maxweii]

While I like and appreciate the talent tree stuff you did, that's probably more suited for one of the other threads we have open here compared to the rune Regen one ^^

[SlippyCheeze]

Yep, i hate the tier 75 talents as much as all of you, but hence DK talents are just dead and always will be dead (no pun attended).

I go blood tap most of the time because of on demand death rune and there is no RNG surrounding the talent, RE and RC are just dead to me, so the tier 75 just doesn't give me options... really.

Damn, but every time someone says "I choose X because Y, so the tier gives me no options" I kinda have to cry a little. Because that is the choice. You just made it. Right there. In that damn sentence, before you followed up with "gives me no options" and all.

The Blizzard developers are right to say that T75 has choices, and people make them. Damn near every complaint about it is either (a) I made a choice, but I want to have to change that choice regularly, or (b) I made a choice based on mathematical throughput, ignoring that is not the only consideration you could use.

[Schizoide]

The Blizzard developers are right to say that T75 has choices, and people make them. Damn near every complaint about it is either (a) I made a choice, but I want to have to change that choice regularly, or (b) I made a choice based on mathematical throughput, ignoring that is not the only consideration you could use.

They are choices, but they aren't meaningful choices, because all three talents are passive and all three perform the same.

That doesn't mean you're forced to use them passively. If you enjoy gaming RE or micromanaging Blood Tap, that's up to you. But that will not be rewarded commensurate with the effort invested.

[SlippyCheeze]

They are choices, but they aren't meaningful choices, because all three talents are passive and all three perform the same.

That doesn't mean you're forced to use them passively. If you enjoy gaming RE or micromanaging Blood Tap, that's up to you. But that will not be rewarded commensurate with the effort invested.

Yeah, and this is a totally legitimate complaint. Control or gaming ... I agree, they don't reward the effort investment. I hope you are taking that commentary to watcher, since it actually adds value to the discussion in a way that the two complaints I bitched about fail.

eg: it isn't a complaint that there is a mathematically superior throughput choice. (yup, sure is, but watcher told us there is a 4:3:3 split in talent choices for high end raiding, and they don't care if a tiny fraction of world #100 raiders have no choice in the tier. also, watcher definitely doesn't see "throughput" as the only axis to compare talents, or anything else, on.)

Also, it isn't a complaint that you made a choice, but don't want to see that as a choice -- you acknowledge that there is choice, but don't feel that the effort/reward balance is good, which is an *excellent* thing to say.

So, yeah, your concerns I have absolutely no issue with. Go you, haha.

[Schizoide]

Heh, I honed this argument over several years now. And yes, of course I've tried to tell this to the devs, including the very same twitter thread you're referring to, but I'm only one voice. We need to find consensus and then communicate as a group, both on twitter and more importantly, once beta starts on the beta forums.

[Deleted]

Don't think they should change the lvl 75 talents, they aren't going to change the talents because they want it to be a choice for the player which one to have, so forcing some run regen on the other wouldn't be okay either. Just end it there, because they won't change it. And please please don't start a riot like PVP rogues do whenever they get nerfed some way.

[Schizoide]

Don't think they should change the lvl 75 talents, they aren't going to change the talents because they want it to be a choice for the player which one to have, so forcing some run regen on the other wouldn't be okay either. Just end it there, because they won't change it. And please please don't start a riot like PVP rogues do whenever they get nerfed some way.

Posts like this are why they probably won't change it. We can't build consensus, because most players don't understand the argument.

[Deleted]

Posts like this are why they probably won't change it. We can't build consensus, because most players don't understand the argument.

Well they've got a legitimate reason to keep it as it is. Don't want to force something onto others. Like i read some suggestions like Runic Corruption for Unholy, Blood Tap for Blood and Runic Empowerment for Frost. Which would be forcing it upon people.

[Schizoide]

Imagine you had a talent tier that allowed you to choose between three colors for Death Grip; red, blue, or yellow. Now, some people prefer red. Some like yellow. Me, I'm partial to blue. If they forced my Death Grip to be yellow, that would be taking that choice away from me. Is that a worthy talent tier?

Cosmetic customization is nice to have. But we only get a couple talent tiers. Each one should be a meaningful choice.

[Deleted]

Imagine you had a talent tier that allowed you to choose between three colors for Death Grip; red, blue, or yellow. Now, some people prefer red. Some like yellow. Me, I'm partial to blue. If they forced my Death Grip to be yellow, that would be taking that choice away from me. Is that a worthy talent tier?

Cosmetic customization is nice to have. But we only get a couple talent tiers. Each one should be a meaningful choice.

It's not cosmetic.

[Schizoide]

It is cosmetic. All three options perform the same to a tolerance of less than 1%, and your best option is best used passively.

When something doesn't change your performance and doesn't change how you play, that seems like a reasonable definition of cosmetic to me.

Now I know you choose to manually Blood Tap. That's fine, if you want to eke out that 0.4% performance delta and can perfectly execute it. And since you're ranked #9 in the world, I'm sure you can. But that doesn't invalidate my argument.

[Deleted]

It is cosmetic. All three options perform the same to a tolerance of less than 1%, and your best option is best used passively.

When something doesn't change your performance and doesn't change how you play, that seems like a reasonable definition of cosmetic to me.

Now I know you choose to manually Blood Tap. That's fine, if you want to eke out that 0.4% performance delta and can perfectly execute it. And since you're ranked #9 in the world, I'm sure you can. But that doesn't invalidate my argument.

The dps might be around the same, but the gameplay isn't.

Some people like to sit around with enough charges for that soul reaper at 36%, some people like to gamble and the occasional 3rd extra rune from runic empowerment. And in PVP runic corruption tends to be better for unholy in blood presence.

[Schizoide]

Some people like to sit around with enough charges for that soul reaper at 36%, some people like to gamble and the occasional 3rd extra rune from runic empowerment. And in PVP runic corruption tends to be better for unholy in blood presence.

Like I said several times, you aren't forced to use BT and RE passively. The key point here is that the performance gained from using them manually is not rewarded. In the case of Blood Tap it's usually a performance loss, unless you can perfectly execute. These things are not worth doing unless you enjoy them-- or you're competing at skyscraper-high altitudes like the top 10 ranks per spec in the world.

I would prefer for the tier to be replaced with something more interesting, that's true. But I would be OK if they buffed un-macroed BT and gamed RE so they offered a substantial performance gain. At least then players would be presented with an actual choice, and skill (or micromanagement tolerance; potato/potatto) play rewarded.

I can't intelligently speak to PvP as I don't do much of it. The rune regen tier may be awesome there. I know Unholy uses Blood Tap for necrotic strike, for one thing, but can't go into any details regarding turtling in blood presence etc.

[Deleted]

Like I said several times, you aren't forced to use BT and RE passively. The key point here is that the performance gained from using them manually is not rewarded. In the case of Blood Tap it's usually a performance loss, unless you can perfectly execute. These things are not worth doing unless you enjoy them-- or you're competing at skyscraper-high altitudes like the top 10 ranks per spec in the world.

I would prefer for the tier to be replaced with something more interesting, that's true. But I would be OK if they buffed un-macroed BT and gamed RE so they offered a substantial performance gain. At least then players would be presented with an actual choice, and skill (or micromanagement tolerance; potato/potatto) play rewarded.

I can't intelligently speak to PvP as I don't do much of it. The rune regen tier may be awesome there. I know Unholy uses Blood Tap for necrotic strike, for one thing, but can't go into any details regarding turtling in blood presence etc.

And what im trying to say is. It's not all about dps. It's about being comfortable with the way you play and be able to relax and focus on tactics. I haven't at any point said, there's a huge significent dmg difference.

[Schizoide]

And what im trying to say is. It's not all about dps. It's about being comfortable with the way you play and be able to relax and focus on tactics.

It's not all about DPS; it's also about gameplay. If all 3 talents offered the same performance but changed gameplay, that would be fine. But they don't change gameplay.

If you game RE or manually Blood Tap, you're accepting additional complexity in your gameplay but are not rewarded for it. You could choose to play WoW with the keyboard on the floor playing with your toes. That would certainly be more difficult, and just like manual Blood Tap, you would not be rewarded for doing it.

That's why it's a cosmetic choice.

[Deleted]

It's not all about DPS; it's also about gameplay. If all 3 talents offered the same performance but changed gameplay, that would be fine. But they don't change gameplay.

If you game RE or manually Blood Tap, you're accepting additional complexity in your gameplay but are not rewarded for it. You could choose to play WoW with the keyboard on the floor playing with your toes. That would certainly be more difficult, and just like manual Blood Tap, you would not be rewarded for doing it.

That's why it's a cosmetic choice.

Some people likes to have control of the situation. Know what is going to happen next.

[Schizoide]

Yes, and some people enjoy playing with their toes. Diff'rent strokes.