Is Siege of Orgrimmar REALLY that hard?

[Hypasonic]

Not an expert on CM's, but isn't chain lightning still massive in those? Gear levels are roughly same.

Still decent, but at that level haste is better, so you don't get anywhere near the amount of procs and SV hunts are incredibly reliable in CMs for their AoE.

[Deleted]

Not an expert on CM's, but isn't chain lightning still massive in those? Gear levels are roughly same.

Tested it myself a few months ago with my elemental main and warlock alt, both used their normal equipment and didnt switch out a single piece (legendary cloak, meta gem, different stat priorities, etc), and my destruction warlock pulled ahead off my elemental shaman easily. I basically carried the whole grp alone. But elemental shaman is an integral part if you aim to carry 2 buyers throught CM, cause of the insane cleave damage and off healing in BiS CM gear.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

To be fair the hardest part of raiding of any tier or boss is getting a group of people together skilled enough to do it. The content itself isn't that hard. Which is why once you find yourself a group that manages to stick together long enough with minimal turn over without most of them being total idiots or unskilled players content tends to go down. If you have that and also can commit a little more time to the effort then it goes down pretty quick.

So two biggest factors:
-Finding skilled players that don't bail quickly
-How much time you can commit to downing content

Depending on how much time you have to spend finding new players, how much time you have to sink into skilling players up, and how much or little time you can give to beating bosses determines the x factors of how long.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Depends on who you ask.

People hail other games as pinnacle of gaming challenge (Wildstar, GW2 for example) and call WoW easy-peasy, yet they have nothing to show for it. I go try the games they claim are oh so challenging, and it's a cakewalk once I've setup my bindings. Move, press buttons, keep an eye on what's happening. Nothing to it.

Same goes for WoW, all you have to do as a raider of any sort in order to not have others carry you, is being able to see what happens, know your abilities and keep track of what boss is doing relative to what you are doing. The real challenge comes from having 9/24 others being able to do this and keeping track. Some learn slower, some learn fast. Challenge comes from mechanics + having many individuals work with those mechanics.

I would have liked to see people entering SoO for the FIRST time clearing it in 471 stuff. THAT would have been cool. Bringing experienced people instantly removes one factor...the learning curve.

[Deleted]

To be fair the hardest part of raiding of any tier or boss is getting a group of people together skilled enough to do it. The content itself isn't that hard. Which is why once you find yourself a group that manages to stick together long enough with minimal turn over without most of them being total idiots or unskilled players content tends to go down. If you have that and also can commit a little more time to the effort then it goes down pretty quick.

So two biggest factors:
-Finding skilled players that don't bail quickly
-How much time you can commit to downing content

Depending on how much time you have to spend finding new players, how much time you have to sink into skilling players up, and how much or little time you can give to beating bosses determines the x factors of how long.

So unbelievable wrong, but whatever.

[Deleted]

So unbelievable wrong, but whatever.

He's right, ime.

Even at my guilds low, low level, it's hard to find people who can be assed to wipe more than half a dozen times and keep putting the same effort in, never mind get any of the other criteria met. With the right people, wow is easy, with the wrong people, wow is an unconquerable hell.

[Deleted]

So unbelievable wrong, but whatever.

Care to share why you think that quote is wrong? Because I must say I agree with him. If you have a consistent group with people that know how to play it's not really hard to progress.

[Wilderness]

He's right, ime.

Even at my guilds low, low level, it's hard to find people who can be assed to wipe more than half a dozen times and keep putting the same effort in, never mind get any of the other criteria met. With the right people, wow is easy, with the wrong people, wow is an unconquerable hell.

In a general sense, yes, he's right. But not in this specific context. Clearly the people that would be assembled for this will be skilled, although how dedicated they might be to something like this if they hit a wall immediately is unknown, but that's not the point. What people have been talking about over and over is just the basic math behind boss hp, boss abilities, and enrage timers. Skill can make up for a lot in this game, and that's why the top guilds are the top guilds, but there will be a point for every single encounter where it doesn't matter if everyone plays 100% perfectly because the gear you have just isn't able to output more dps/hps than the encounter requires.

[Raiju]

He's right, ime.

Even at my guilds low, low level, it's hard to find people who can be assed to wipe more than half a dozen times and keep putting the same effort in, never mind get any of the other criteria met. With the right people, wow is easy, with the wrong people, wow is an unconquerable hell.

Pretty much any guild that isn't cleared yet has this problem, because more than half a dozen wipes implies either obvious mistakes on a bad run, or that a noticeable amount of improvement is going to have to go into the kill.

Why bother when you could spend your (limited, generally) time clearing the other bosses for more gear, then steamrolling it in 2 weeks?

[kamuimac]

So unbelievable wrong, but whatever.

yet most of hc raiders will give u similiar view - the worst enemy of hc raiding is people guild hoping and quiting after wiping longer then 2 weeks on progress boss - if u have stable team for minimum a month everything start to fall over due to overgearing but if u bring in new undergeared people into equation everything falls apart very very quickly - that why siegecrafter is such guild killer - not cause its mega ultra hardcore hard but cause if each week u bring even 1 fresh person there u wont progress.

[Hellravager]

You havent seen heroic siegecrafter XD

[durrtygoodz]

He's right, ime.

Even at my guilds low, low level, it's hard to find people who can be assed to wipe more than half a dozen times and keep putting the same effort in, never mind get any of the other criteria met. With the right people, wow is easy, with the wrong people, wow is an unconquerable hell.

Good players make the game easier, you say? What an extraordinary observation. Please, tell us more.

[prwraith]

No raid is really hard when you get right down to it. It's simple execution. What's hard is finding 9-24 other people who aren't complete jackasses. And can execute the tasks consistently. Not shit sorry I missed a cooldown there..no excuse smh

[Deleted]

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.de/ did it and they also cleared lich king after the nerfs but being primarly trader he left on suggestion to eve which has the most complex economy in mmorpgs.

edit:
"There also was a blue only geared guild called "undergeared" that killed like ~7/12 in ICC. " -that was him, they cleared full after nerfs.

Undergeared wasn't comprised of leadership who finished the content, and specifically wanted players who didn't play same class as main. Undergeared never killed LK, and we did bosses while the buff was active. What Undergeared did do is clear Ulduar 10 in blues. This was done before ICC.

We'd be comparing two expansions.

WotLK: healer legendary and strength legendary, T7 cleared in T6 gear from TBC. T8 cleared in blues by Undergeared. Stacking debuff in ICC.

MoP: legendary cape for all, sick trinkets, steep ilvl curve (1/1 blues being 111-119 less ilvl than HC and HCWF 4/4 epics from SoO). VP-based nerfs.

As you can see, a world of difference.

This project should aim lower. Obviously you can do T14 in blues, but can you do T15? Try that first. Succeed, and then do SoO, showing off your achievements of T15. Or try Flex first. SoO is tuned in such a way it assumes players got the legendary cape.

- - - Updated - - -

Not an expert on CM's, but isn't chain lightning still massive in those? Gear levels are roughly same.

BM AoE got buffed. SV and ele are the two classes brought to CMs for the DPS slot, third being a lock/mage and tank and healer being brewmaster and discipline respectively.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to prove they're easy, I'd say it would be better to get everyone to swap roles.

Have everyone swap to a role and class they don't regularly play, with low-moderate gear, and go from there.

Precisely what Undergeared did, but at a day where 10N was the easiest difficulty and 25H the most difficult.

I suggest you try LFR and Flex first in blues. Laugh at that all you want, it would prove those who require ridiculous ilvl for Flex wrong.

[Deleted]

Good players make the game easier, you say? What an extraordinary observation. Please, tell us more.

I would, but you didn't read what I wrote the first time.

[Unholydevil]

Not really now but about 25 item levels ago I would certainly have said it was a challenge because at that point the dps checks mattered and your health wasn't high enough that you could afford to mess up the mechanics at least on heroic since below that was easy will be easy and every raid that launches on not the highest difficulty will be easy.

The first 8 bosses were probably a little undertuned but they helped to set up the final 6 as the actual challenge and the final 4 (well 3 in my opinion) were just a cut above the rest of the instance in difficulty.

Thok which came first was basically just having the right amount of cds and having people push them in the right order. Provided that happened everyone should live and the fight should in theory go down because his dps check wasn't all that tight.

Garosh overall was probably the easiest mechanical fight of the last 3 with most of the frustrations on him coming down to dps which was really tight in 25 and a little to tight in 10 probably but still not particularly hard mechanically.


Paragons would not have been that bad if not for that first guy on 25 who was a nightmare but once you figured out how to have your tanks do 1M dps that fights enrage timer became mostly irrelevant.

I saved Blackfuse for last because mechanically I think he was the toughest fight in there but also my favorite. The multitude of things that you were managing on that fight and how a single slip up could cause a wipe serves as an excellent model for boss fights to come and if blizzard could make 2-3 of those fights a tier I would probably be raiding this game 10 years from now.

So as for difficulty each of the final 4 tested a different aspect of your raid and combined provided an excellent and rewarding challenge that makes me wonder why you would be able to accuse it of being to easy.

I point this all out to just say how insane it would be to accomplish anything at all in there period going in undertuned (even for flex itself) because while the mechanics are insane on heroic the fact that of the fights I listed about 3 were hard dps checks any success you have gets my major congratulations.

[Sliippy]

So is this still happening tomorrow? I am going to actually watch a stream for once if so.

[Foxhoundn]

So is this still happening tomorrow? I am going to actually watch a stream for once if so.

I wonder as well!

[Destke]

Looking forward to the raid (stream).

[Schinto]

I hope this is still happening, if they even kill a single boss I'd be happy and I know I haven't missed a single thing this expansion.