The $15 minimum wage...

[bergmann620]

That cool breeze from the hand waiving sure is nice on a hot day.

What hand waving? The hand waving of whipping out a chart of 26 (out of hundreds of thousands) companies that pay no taxes in the middle of a 'corporate welfare minimum wage' discussion? It would actually BE corporate welfare if you could show companies that pay no taxes but require their employees be subsidized by the government. Instead, you have a chart filled with companies that, by the looks of it, pay their employees handsomely.

I am fine with the government being the agency that relieves the suffering of the lower class. I think that that is a much less regressive system than what hiking minimum wage would amount to. Do I think we should reform all of our assistance programs so that they are more useful and universal? Sure. Do I think the government will need to be more involved in assisting the labor force? Absolutely. Do I think that paying everyone $75/hr is a solution? Hell no.

[Endus]

Wow, just wow.

If a McD job can provide for a family of 4

You say that like it's crazy. It pretty much worked that way, post-WW2.

should a Lawyer or someone in the Finance sector be able to provide for a family of 23?

Yes, they should be making comparatively more.

The issue is that the entire middle class is economically depressed. The major concern is those suffering hardship as a result, but if you're making less than about $300k/year, you could/should be making more, and aren't, because of the economic shenanigans of the last 40 years or so.

[Tinykong]

I know what an anecdote is, but are you claiming they wouldnt work for anyone else? Not a single person?

They could work, but probabbly won't since the vast majority of people aren't you.

Because you dont know who could benefit from it. It also stimulate thinking.

I guess I can see the value in that, but, these aren't big picture solutions, more of a stop-gap until real reform can happen.

Not claiming it would work for everyone, but some people may find value in it. Even if it prompts them to ask a friend who could get them a hook up on something else. You cant just disregard an idea because it doesnt work for everyone. That is just silly.

I don't dismiss these kinds of ideas can work for people. However, they are not a replacement for real reform.

[Grym]

Poverty line for family of 4 is 23k.

$15/hr at 2000 hrs (full time) is about $30k.

Ah that is good to know.

So "be able to provide for family of 4" $15/hr isn't even needed. Looks like $10/hr will do them fine.

[Tinykong]

What hand waving? The hand waving of whipping out a chart of 26 (out of hundreds of thousands) companies that pay no taxes in the middle of a 'corporate welfare minimum wage' discussion? It would actually BE corporate welfare if you could show companies that pay no taxes but require their employees be subsidized by the government. Instead, you have a chart filled with companies that, by the looks of it, pay their employees handsomely.

I am fine with the government being the agency that relieves the suffering of the lower class. I think that that is a much less regressive system than what hiking minimum wage would amount to. Do I think we should reform all of our assistance programs so that they are more useful and universal? Sure. Do I think the government will need to be more involved in assisting the labor force? Absolutely. Do I think that paying everyone $75/hr is a solution? Hell no.

So, because Walmart isn't on the list, they don't have teams of lawyers whose sole purpose is to lower their tax exposure through exploiting loopholes?

That is the handwaiving.

[Endus]

Ah that is good to know.

So "be able to provide for family of 4" $15/hr isn't even needed. Looks like $10/hr will do them fine.

The poverty line isn't really a good measure, since you're still qualifying for government support at that income level. It's too low, largely because the model hasn't really been updated, save for inflation, for decades.

[Tinykong]

Ah that is good to know.

So "be able to provide for family of 4" $15/hr isn't even needed. Looks like $10/hr will do them fine.

If everything in their life doesn't go according to plan, they can get a pay day loan and then throw themselves at the mercy of the bankruptcy court!

It's uniquely American.

[Rukentuts]

If everything in their life doesn't go according to plan, they can get a pay day loan

Those things are so slimy. I'm annoyed the Dems didn't get to curbing them in my state this past session.

[Tinykong]

Those things are so slimy. I'm annoyed the Dems didn't get to curbing them in my state this past session.

What, you don't see a problem with legalized loan sharking? I mean, 300% interest is reasonable, right?

[madmanx]

Little mom and pop gyro place I used to go to is barely operating and the owner, his brother, and their wives run the show for the most part, since they can't afford too many employees (like 6-7). Jump the min wage to $15, and they are closing down. I imagine this would happen to thousands of these types of places around the country.

Let them close!

It is not the workers that are supposed to pay for their failure in running a business. If you can not afford to pay your workers first world salaries in a first world country you should not have a business in the first world.

Maybe we should reinstate Feudalism and slavery too while we are at it to make like easier for these people? Must be better being a slave than being hungry...right?

[Zlebar]

Those things are so slimy. I'm annoyed the Dems didn't get to curbing them in my state this past session.

Truth, people use them once and can never get back ahead. It's a vicious cycle. Use your paycheck to pay them back, then when you have no money left you have to get another one.

[bergmann620]

You're aware how the raise is going to happen gradually?
What ever the end result will be, it'll climb over the next 2 years.
And what would be so wrong to say, let's rais it to $15.00 over the course of the next 5 years, and from there on out apply the inflation rate to it, so it stands the test of time. It would be probably at $15.00 already now, had they not forgotten to add the inflation rate increase to it the last time.
While you certainly have a point that we cannot account for all extremes, we can however go by the vast majority.
I live at the border from Iowa/Nebraska.. If I take a job in DesMoines which is over an hour away from me, and I have to commute 3 hours per day, it's my own fault. I cannot cry about that anecdote. I either don't keep the job or I relocate.

Thing is though, a federal minimum wage that is high enough to support someone in San Francisco is going to be sky-high in Akron. Even if it's phased in over time, it is going to distort many local economies, and it will devalue the skills of many, many people. Are we going to ramp up all other social programs to match that change? Food Stamps, rent assistance, childcare, Social Security, etc will all need to be adjusted to match, or they will be devalued as prices rise.

It's just not a fix. It's a bandaid that at best helps some people on the low end of the labor market, and at worst, will permanently price people out of the labor market.

[Twotonsteak]

A Libertarian Think Tank publishing a whiney blog post about minimum wage?

Fucking shocking.

And yup, there it is, suggesting that the amount of people a business employees is based on the minimum wage, and that if we lower it to 0 it would be wonderful for everyone.

This was all destroyed in the previous minimum wage thread which descended into name calling by one side as they were continually given actual information about how an increase in minimum wage doesn't decrease employment.

So there are at least four different fast-food establishments within two miles of me. (Chick-Fil-A, Popeyes, and two McDonalds.) I have yet to see anyone over the age of 25, except management, working at one of those establishments. Furthermore anyone under the age of 18 is restricted in what they can do to the point that, typically, they can only work the register.

So tell me again why someone under the age of 18, who can only legally do one job, deserves $15/hr?

Oh, that's right, this is where you rant about the poor, single mother, raising a child while working two jobs. And how her boss should be required to pay for her life choices.

[bergmann620]

Let them close!

It is not the workers that are supposed to pay for their failure in running a business. If you can not afford to pay your workers first world salaries in a first world country you should not have a business in the first world.

Maybe we should reinstate Feudalism and slavery too while we are at it to make like easier for these people? Must be better being a slave than being hungry...right?

I know, right? those 6-7 people would be much better off not having jobs!

[petej0]

They could work, but probabbly won't since the vast majority of people aren't you.

The fact that they could work for even one person is worth my time getting it out there for someone to read. Even if it is a modified version or it gets them thinkig of other ways to save.

I guess I can see the value in that, but, these aren't big picture solutions, more of a stop-gap until real reform can happen.

I don't dismiss these kinds of ideas can work for people. However, they are not a replacement for real reform.

They could be changes families make that help them even after reform. There is no reason why they should walk away from saving money, just because they happened to get a wage raise. Earning more money does not mean they have to spend that much more money.

[Twotonsteak]

Thing is though, a federal minimum wage that is high enough to support someone in San Francisco is going to be sky-high in Akron. Even if it's phased in over time, it is going to distort many local economies, and it will devalue the skills of many, many people. Are we going to ramp up all other social programs to match that change? Food Stamps, rent assistance, childcare, Social Security, etc will all need to be adjusted to match, or they will be devalued as prices rise.

It's just not a fix. It's a bandaid that at best helps some people on the low end of the labor market, and at worst, will permanently price people out of the labor market.

Pretty much this, yes.

A proper fix would have involved job creation. The problem is Obama has not, despite all the bragging he does, created jobs...except part-time, minimum wage jobs. He failed and this is his attempt to "fix" that.

Of course it's a temporary fix, at best. But it will last long enough to see him out of office. And that's all he really cares about. By the time the real effects of raising the minimum wage are felt...someone else will be in office, and they'll eat the blame.

[bergmann620]

What, you don't see a problem with legalized loan sharking? I mean, 300% interest is reasonable, right?

It's reasonable compared to a bounced check fee. I've had to use a payday loan place once in my life, and yea, it sucked. It also saved me maybe $300 in fees.

[Tinykong]

The fact that they could work for even one person is worth my time getting it out there for someone to read. Even if it is a modified version or it gets them thinkig of other ways to save.

They could be changes families make that help them even after reform. There is no reason why they should walk away from saving money, just because they happened to get a wage raise. Earning more money does not mean they have to spend that much more money.

There is a difference between:

"These tips can help you save money, you should try them out."

and

"I can eat on $231 a month using these tips, so that's what poverty should be, if you can't afford that on minimum wage, l2budget."

[Grym]

It is more

Person A "I have to starve myself after spending $300 on food"
Person B "you shouldn't need to spend that much, try this and this and this and you shouldn't even need to spend more than $250."

He didn't claim that should become the poverty line because he can do it, he is merely pointing out the other person could have spent a lot less.

[Tinykong]

It's reasonable compared to a bounced check fee. I've had to use a payday loan place once in my life, and yea, it sucked. It also saved me maybe $300 in fees.

Oops:

In 2011, average bank payday borrower took out 19 loans.

Bank payday borrowers are two times more likely to incur overdraft fees than bank customers as a whole.

Must have glossed over that part. I have a hard time believing anyone could honestly support pay day lending.