Enhancement shaman set to get Sanctity of Battle-esq passive.

[Deleted]

I got a feeling that the "promise(s)" of enha having less burst dps and more consistent dps might not work out so well as we'll still be most likely the spec with most dps cds+Flurry and EotE making us use SS/LL etc far more often so they can't hit too much. makes me a sad panda if it turns out like this ;(

[Schizoide]

Quite a few damage sources were removed in WoD for exactly that reason, so our active abilities would feel stronger. Earth Elemental Totem is no longer worth using for damage. Static Shock is gone, so no lightning shield passive damage. Searing Flames and Stormlash Totem are gone. Unleash Elements no longer deals damage, it's just a buff now. They specifically wanted to address Enhance's passive damage, and to a large extent have done so.

If it were me, I'd actually remove Flametongue offhand damage too. Doing a bit of fire damage with each offhand strike is not exactly compelling.

[Kaljurei]

My apologies, I forgot about Rogues and Druids, and now Monks. Yes, Haste affected Energy and Rune regen rates and therefore allowed more skills to be used in a predefined time period with more Haste and therefore was a proper affect. But using the same analogy without considering resource generation, I don't think that's the way to do it. That's all. HLR is actually pretty boring because it only affects one ability and reduces GCDs for everything else, and they could have used a better mechanic to make Haste better for us.

Also I was talking about Haste from Wrath onwards. Paladins didn't get SoB until Cata, and even then Haste was the worst stat for Retribution. It was only after they allowed something other than Crusader Strike to generate Holy Power, did Haste become better than everything else.

I'm okay with Flurry. I think Flurry will make Enhancement a lot more fun to play than it is now, especially with the new EoTE, the Lava Lash perk, etc, but I only state that it wasn't the best way to make Haste better for Enhancement or even the most creative way.

[Schizoide]

I'm okay with Flurry. I think Flurry will make Enhancement a lot more fun to play than it is now, especially with the new EoTE, the Lava Lash perk, etc, but I only state that it wasn't the best way to make Haste better for Enhancement or even the most creative way.

I think we actually agree here. I love the change, but I agree that it's not the best possible way to fix Enhance.

What Enhance really needs is a resource. Resource-constrained specs are (IMO obviously) much more compelling to play than cooldown-constrained ones. I would love to see Enhance be given the Windwalker treatment, with energy as a primary fast generating resource and Maelstrom Weapon stacks acting as combo points. The spec would hugely benefit from that.

I don't see that happening, because it's a lot of work for a single spec. But I agree that would be better.

[Kaljurei]

Perhaps in the next expansion - wait, what?

I think there are already too many Energy using specs. It's also not absolutely imperative for an agility spec to use a resource like Energy/Focus. A dual resource system also makes a lot of sense, such as has been demonstrated from the time of Rogues/Ferals to Death Knights, and then Paladins and Monks.

A 'mana-unnamed resource' resource system could work just fine, as it does now for Paladins. I think for the sake of Shamans, it would be best called Elemental Energy, and not Maelstrom Weapon so as to allow all Shaman specs to benefit from it, like Monks do for Chi even though the DPS/Tank specs use Energy and MW uses Mana. But I'd guess this is for another thread in probably 2 years time at the end of WoD.

[Schizoide]

I'm not a fan of Holy Power, because ret is still cooldown-constrained. Something similar would be an improvement for Shamans, yes, agreed. Maelstrom Weapon isn't a resource at all, not even a secondary one. But we were talking about the utopian pie in the sky solution, and for me that's not it.

[Blithe]

Perhaps in the next expansion - wait, what?

I think there are already too many Energy using specs. It's also not absolutely imperative for an agility spec to use a resource like Energy/Focus. A dual resource system also makes a lot of sense, such as has been demonstrated from the time of Rogues/Ferals to Death Knights, and then Paladins and Monks.

A 'mana-unnamed resource' resource system could work just fine, as it does now for Paladins. I think for the sake of Shamans, it would be best called Elemental Energy, and not Maelstrom Weapon so as to allow all Shaman specs to benefit from it, like Monks do for Chi even though the DPS/Tank specs use Energy and MW uses Mana. But I'd guess this is for another thread in probably 2 years time at the end of WoD.

Elemental Energy should work how Demonic Fury does where there's a total of 1,000. Ascendance can no longer be a cooldown, but a stance like Metamorphosis. While Ascended, your Elemental Energy extinguishes passively and when you use abilities that cost the resource. I think this would play out very nicely, to be honest and could be balanced for all three specializations to have Elemental Energy generators and spenders. The model especially has to be replaced, but that's the least of the worries with such a revamp.

Either way, I'd be all for it.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not a fan of Holy Power, because ret is still cooldown-constrained. Something similar would be an improvement for Shamans, yes, agreed. Maelstrom Weapon isn't a resource at all, not even a secondary one. But we were talking about the utopian pie in the sky solution, and for me that's not it.

Maelstrom Weapon is a mix between Selfless Healer and Exorcism. I love Holy Power, I just don't think that kind of resource would work for this class. Retribution is supposed to be cooldown-constrained, and Retribution and Enhancement were effectively polar opposites at one point. Enhancement had the damage, but not the survivability, and vice versa with Retribution. I think this holds a key flair, but in this meta it's all disarrayed with this hybrid homogenization nonsense.

[Schizoide]

Retribution is supposed to be cooldown-constrained,

Sez who? Just because they always have been? We're talking about improvements, and I strongly feel Ret and Prot paladin specs would be improved if their ability usage was constrained by a primary resource rather than cooldowns. Same deal with DPS warriors and enhance.

[Blithe]

Sez who? Just because they always have been? We're talking about improvements, and I strongly feel Ret and Prot paladin specs would be improved if their ability usage was constrained by a primary resource rather than cooldowns. Same deal with DPS warriors and enhance.

Their resource is constrained by mana and cooldowns using the typical combo generator-combo spender play-style. Inquisition is being removed in Warlords, which was really the only thing that bugged me about Retribution so that's a very positive thing. Either way, it's a very fun spec to play because it's so similar to Enhancement. Regardless of whether it has a secondary resource or not, or is cooldown based, its current play-style is engaging.

[jayinjersey]

I'll be honest...I'm not that confident in Blizzard to make changes like that with a resource system...I think the lack of attention to Enh has actually been an advantage, I remember earlier this Expansion (maybe 5.2 or 3?) they were worried about BiS Enh shaman as being too OP, but decided there wasn't any reason to address it as not many will make it to BiS and even then they had such a high skill curve
They also said this about Sublty...but since a ton of people play rogues we had everybody and their mother switch specs and ruin the party for everyone.


I like having Mana...gives me a nice feeling when I have to use my, what are we down to now 2 healing spells?
Rain excluded from Glyph, Chain on its way out...I guess Surge?

[Schizoide]

Their resource is constrained by mana and cooldowns using the typical combo generator-combo spender play-style.

No. Mana is infinite. It is only a resource for healers and arcane mages.

I agree that Ret is pretty fun these days, with much faster holy power generation. Now that inquisition lasts twice as long as refreshes on killing blow, I don't mind it too much either, although I also am glad it's being removed. Savage Roar was a much more annoying maintenance buff throughout MoP. Anyway, not saying Ret isn't fun, just that it would be better constrained by resources rather than cooldowns. Enhance too.

[Blithe]

No. Mana is infinite. It is only a resource for healers and arcane mages.

I agree that Ret is pretty fun these days, with much faster holy power generation. Now that inquisition lasts twice as long as refreshes on killing blow, I don't mind it too much either, although I also am glad it's being removed. Savage Roar was a much more annoying maintenance buff throughout MoP. Anyway, not saying Ret isn't fun, just that it would be better constrained by resources rather than cooldowns. Enhance too.

Elaborate? Give some examples. Retribution is fine with Holy Power (in my opinion) and it works, but if you're suggesting a system where say Stormstrike wouldn't have a cooldown and would instead cost resources, I'd most definitely be against that depending on how it would be incorporated.

Still, I wouldn't trust such an overhaul to my two favourite classes.

[Schizoide]

if you're suggesting a system where say Stormstrike wouldn't have a cooldown and would instead cost resources, I'd most definitely be against that depending on how it would be incorporated.

Yes, that's how it would work. No short cooldowns, two resources, primary and secondary, everything costs a resource.

[Blithe]

Yes, that's how it would work. No short cooldowns, two resources, primary and secondary, everything costs a resource.

But I play both of those classes because they don't work how Death Knights, Feral Druids, Monks and Rogues do...

[Hekili]

Still, I wouldn't trust such an overhaul to my two favourite classes.

I totally get this. I think Enhancement is largely fine, and don't have problems with most of the changes for WoD that have been presented so far. I was worried that Enhance wouldn't get the "fresh" feeling in WoD since nothing seemed really new, but the new Flurry alleviated that for me.

I still think Storm Elemental Totem is a bad plan. Balancing is going to be really rough, to the point that I worry that you'll have to get EM+PE+SET for any one of those talents to be valuable.

If we got a resource system, I would imagine it would end up a lot like energy, except with four pools...one for each element. Using a damaging or healing ability would consume that pool of Elemental Affinity (or whatever) to do more damage / healing / greater effect. We'd need to get rid of the current totem model to have anything like that, which I'd also be okay with. I want one big WC3 totem that we can interact with and cause fun things to happen, rather than DPS/heal turrets or pet leashes.

[Blithe]

I totally get this. I think Enhancement is largely fine, and don't have problems with most of the changes for WoD that have been presented so far. I was worried that Enhance wouldn't get the "fresh" feeling in WoD since nothing seemed really new, but the new Flurry alleviated that for me.

I still think Storm Elemental Totem is a bad plan. Balancing is going to be really rough, to the point that I worry that you'll have to get EM+PE+SET for any one of those talents to be valuable.

If we got a resource system, I would imagine it would end up a lot like energy, except with four pools...one for each element. Using a damaging or healing ability would consume that pool of Elemental Affinity (or whatever) to do more damage / healing / greater effect. We'd need to get rid of the current totem model to have anything like that, which I'd also be okay with. I want one big WC3 totem that we can interact with and cause fun things to happen, rather than DPS/heal turrets or pet leashes.

Speaking of Warcraft 3, I wouldn't mind getting Big Bad Voodoo. Although it's not exactly a Totem, it can be assumed it's a Shaman ability... ... ...actually, don't worry about it (remembers Divine Intervention).

[Kaljurei]

Mana is pretty much infinite for every melee dps spec, be it Enhancement or Retribution. The only point it should actually use mana is for cast time spells such as Lightning Bolt, Elemental Blast, all healing spells, instant cast spells actually should not cost any mana at all, ex. SS/LL/Shocks, etc.

Elemental Energy can be a new resource, like Demonic Fury as Blithe has suggested, which is generated by SS/LL/Shocks. Autoattacks should only generate MW charges which can be used on LB and EB, and they both should generate Elemental Energy, which is then multiplied by the number of MW stacks to produce more Elemental Energy. Ascendance can be like Metamorphosis, again like Blithe suggested, where all your Elemental Energy constantly reduces per autoattack that hits, but autoattacks do more damage or the same Wind damage as they do now that bypasses armor, and SS/LL/Shocks done during Ascendance generate double the amount of Elemental Energy, but the energy generated this way adds to your Elemental Energy when you cancel Ascendance or your Elemental Energy runs out.

Remember, expansions involve major changes. Yes, Enhancement is quite fine the way it is now, the AOE could be tuned a bit better, and damage from the Elemental could be moved to more specials, but that's it. A resource system through a new expansion could greatly improve the spec and make it more fun than it is now, not to mention mechanically more pleasing than just pressing buttons on cooldown, which although still requires skill because of the priority system.

I'd say the difference between Retribution and Enhancement would be that even though they are both cooldown driven, each button pressed for Retribution actively builds up towards Templar's Verdict or Divine Storm, but for Enhancement it's just damage, which is mechanically not so pleasing. Maelstrom Weapon somewhat alleviates this as SS/LL can generate MW charges, but doesn't quite fit the bill.

Just my 2 cents. If you want any ideas that can go for Elemental and Restoration I'll be happy to oblige, it shouldn't be too difficult, in fact it can pretty much follow the same model, with everything else remaining intact the way it is, with certain other mechanics like Elemental Overload and Lava Surge providing enhanced Elemental Energy regeneration. For Resto, I'm not quite sure as I've never played the spec after Cata.

[Deleted]

I hope we don't get a secondary resource, I've yet to play a class/spec that had them and actually enjoyed it, but I guess it can be done right and wrong too. I guess technically I wouldn't mind if MW was turned into a "secondary resource", even if nothing else changed except the way it's shown to us. Would be nice to have a built in way to track it rather than just waiting for the aura to pop up at 5 stacks or having to stare at the changing buff bar.

I think MW is quite special that it sorta felt like a secondary resource before they really even existed in this scale. Although now that Blizz has toned down our utility, I guess it's a bit useless change now.

[Kaljurei]

You may want to try playing Retribution, Windwalker or pretty much any Warlock spec and then decide how secondary resources play out. Mana isn't really a valid primary resource for any melee dps spec to begin with.

[Deleted]

You may want to try playing Retribution, Windwalker or pretty much any Warlock spec and then decide how secondary resources play out. Mana isn't really a valid primary resource for any melee dps spec to begin with.

Havn't tried Windwalker, but I largely base my despise on Brewmaster, Prot and Ret pala, warlocks and I havnt so far found any secondary resource I actually liked. Warlock is my original main from vanilla and a while back I got this nostalgy feel of playing my lock again as an alt, but I abandoned it when I didn't like the whole new secondary resource thing. Playing Brewmaster was probably the least annoying experience, but I didn't like that either.

I don't consider the mana as a resource anyways. It might as well not be there, pretty much like you say. I've just liked that we don't really have a resource, we just have a lenghty'ish prio list that works around cooldowns and MW5s. And in it's own way I still think MW is a resource of a kind and I like that, largely cos it's not "omgomgomg need one more stack before I can hit button X", although sure, waiting on MW5 can be like that but at least I can hit the LB (or CH or HR or HS...., at least for a while longer :P) even if not at full stacks. Sort of like.. a soft resource. I didn't like smashing those buttons waiting to get enough of resource X to be able to use an ability that would grant me resource Y so that I can use ability Z. It lacked flexibility. Those lightning bolts/chain lightnings are major part (not necessarily damage % wise, but regarding the prio and ability usage) of enha shaman and most of the time you will probably wait to have the full stacks, but you don't have to if things line up like that.

It feels that everyone and their moms have a secondary resource now, it's definitely not a coincidence that the few classes/specs I actively play and enjoy don't have it. Not every class/spec needs to be the same. That said, like I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't say no to moving MW away from the buff bar to our character portrait to act as a secondary resource, perhaps to spice it up they could even give us 6-7 "slots" to allow for pooling and less wasting of stacks, but apart from that I'd have it work exactly the same, the abilities that use the stacks will use up to 5 stacks, each stack increasing that healing/damage (draenor perk and changes in mind) and lowering cast time accordingly. If you have 3 stacks, you'll use those and still be able to cast it, just at lower numbers and longer cast time.