demon hunters did not end with illidain

[Koryn123]

I agree that Demon Hunters would be hard to do. They might work, I dunno. I think it might be easier to make a Demon Hunter spec for Warlocks, where they get a lot of new abilities.

Lorewise they are very different. Gameplay wise, they have very similar spells (WCIII Demon Hunters to WoW Warlocks).

That said, I doubt they'll ever be a thing.

[Teriz]

Blood and Frost have no connection to DKs pre-WoW, you can't say because Liches use Frost magic and Dreadlords sort of kind of use blood magic (and they are Burning Legion aligned) that those specs being added to Death Knights, isn't very different from the WC3 iteration.

I can because WC3 is cannon in WoW. Liches, DK, and Dreadlords were all undead heroes and of the same faction. Now, admittedly blizzard stretched the Dreadlord's Vampiric aura into a new spec, but that's fine since vampires fit the undead theme as well.

And by like Shadow Magic I mean something originally not described with Demon Hunters, for example I'd suggest the ability to use arcane magic rather than the fire and shadow of Warlocks.

Which isnt a DH, and it's something you have to do because the DH overlaps so heavily with existing classes. You seriously don't see a problem with that right off the bat?

[Ielenia]

Um, how when Priest use Shadow magic and Paladins don't?
That alone separates them completely.

As shown numerous times to you, the Priest's shadow spec was added exclusively for WoW. So using that as a 'differential' is meaningless, because the same could be done to the Demon Hunter, adding, for example, an arcane spec. Or a physical DPS spec.

What does that even mean? We have examples of DHs using Felhunters. That is a demonic minion plain and simple. Stop moving goalposts simply because you've been proven wrong over and over again.

It's not 'goal posts'. Those felhunters are just simply pets. They are not bound by the DH's will like the Warlocks demons are. They are not 'summoned'. They are captured and trained.

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Leotheras the Blind and Varedis both have demonic minions. DH initiates use Banish.

They don't. Leotheras the Blind actually has a demon possessing him. And Varedis has no demonic minions.

[Notshauna]

I can because WC3 is cannon in WoW. Liches, DK, and Dreadlords were all undead heroes and of the same faction. Now, admittedly blizzard stretched the Dreadlord's Vampiric aura into a new spec, but that's fine since vampires fit the undead theme as well.

Which isnt a DH, and it's something you have to do because the DH overlaps so heavily with existing classes. You seriously don't see a problem with that right off the bat?

And the WoW DK is not the same as the WC3 DK, there wasn't enough design space for a DK that only followed the Warcraft 3 archetype so they expanded from it and added things that are believable but don't fit in with any previous version of the DK. Like of course they are going to expand the DK to make it a more complete class, but you also can't pretend that it frost or blood something within DKs toolkit before they added it in WoW.

And this is why pro-DH argument is ridiculous. They have a different definition of a DH than Blizzard does, and make ridiculous excuses when their argument is proved wrong over and over again.

And that is why the Anti-DH argument is ridiculous. They seriously think that if Demon Hunters are added to the game that they have to fit their own idea of what a Demon Hunter has to be, and that since they believe said Demon Hunter is impossible that ANY Demon Hunter MUST be.

[Teriz]

As shown numerous times to you, the Priest's shadow spec was added exclusively for WoW. So using that as a 'differential' is meaningless, because the same could be done to the Demon Hunter, adding, for example, an arcane spec. Or a physical DPS spec.

Shadow Priest is a pretty common archetype in RPGs, so it's not surprising that WoW Priests would get a Shadow spec.

And besides, there were Shadow Priests in WC3.

It's not 'goal posts'. Those felhunters are just simply pets. They are not bound by the DH's will like the Warlocks demons are. They are not 'summoned'. They are captured and trained.

Prime example of your nonsense. A demonic minion is a demonic minion, and nothing says that a DH cant summon demons. Talk about splitting hairs...

[Koryn123]

Granted, Immolation is different in WCIII than it is in WoW. In WoW, it's a single target spell that hurts one enemy. In WCIII, it is a spell used on oneself to deal damage to all nearby enemies. It could be similar to retribution aura, or Demon Hunters could have a cooldown that deals Immolation to all enemies around them, or have it be called Immolation aura, which turns on when you enter combat, and hurts all enemies within like 8 yards every few seconds. I don't think it would be impossible to do. The only thing the demon hunters share with Warlocks gameplay-wise is Metamorphosis, and they share mana burn with shadow priests. I think it could be possible if they wanted to do it. They just need to make up a bunch of new abilities for them. Easy peasy.

Also, yes. Fel Hounds are trained demonic animals. You can befriend them and train them. If their trainer tells them to suck out your magic, you're out of luck. If you could capture it and prevent it from killing you, it could be trained to follow your own orders. Hakkar the Houndmaster's job is to raise and train Fel Hounds. Warlocks can bind them to their will, but it is not always entirely necessary to do so, as long as it's trained. In their masters' minds, it's better to be safe than sorry, so they do it.

[Teriz]

And the WoW DK is not the same as the WC3 DK, there wasn't enough design space for a DK that only followed the Warcraft 3 archetype so they expanded from it and added things that are believable but don't fit in with any previous version of the DK. Like of course they are going to expand the DK to make it a more complete class, but you also can't pretend that it frost or blood something within DKs toolkit before they added it in WoW.

There was plenty of design space because no class occupied an undead theme, and we had an entire undead faction from WC3 that was largely unutilized.

And yes we could predict that Frost would be in the DK toolkit before DK implementation. What is Arthas called? He's the Lich King. Lich is an undead creature that uses frost magic. The Lich King rules over Northrend, a polar continent.

Again, I'll freely admit that Blood was a stretch, but it fits the theme perfectly, and it does have roots in WC3.

And that is why the Anti-DH argument is ridiculous. They seriously think that if Demon Hunters are added to the game that they have to fit their own idea of what a Demon Hunter has to be, and that since they believe said Demon Hunter is impossible that ANY Demon Hunter MUST be.

Yeah, nothing could be further from the truth.

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Granted, Immolation is different in WCIII than it is in WoW. In WoW, it's a single target spell that hurts one enemy. In WCIII, it is a spell used on oneself to deal damage to all nearby enemies. It could be similar to retribution aura, or Demon Hunters could have a cooldown that deals Immolation to all enemies around them, or have it be called Immolation aura, which turns on when you enter combat, and hurts all enemies within like 8 yards every few seconds. I don't think it would be impossible to do. The only thing the demon hunters share with Warlocks gameplay-wise is Metamorphosis, and they share mana burn with shadow priests. I think it could be possible if they wanted to do it. They just need to make up a bunch of new abilities for them. Easy peasy.

Look up immolation aura on Wowhead.

[Ielenia]

Shadow Priest is a pretty common archetype in RPGs, so it's not surprising that WoW Priests would get a Shadow spec.

If 'having a shadow spec' is differential enough for you between priests and paladins, then a fulll physical DPS spec would be enough of a differential between Demon Hunters and Warlocks, no?

Prime example of your nonsense. A demonic minion is a demonic minion, and nothing says that a DH cant summon demons. Talk about splitting hairs...

And nothing says that DH can summon minions.

[Notshauna]

There was plenty of design space because no class occupied an undead theme, and we had an entire undead faction from WC3 that was largely unutilized.

And yes we could predict that Frost would be in the DK toolkit before DK implementation. What is Arthas called? He's the Lich King. Lich is an undead creature that uses frost magic. The Lich King rules over Northrend, a polar continent.

Again, I'll freely admit that Blood was a stretch, but it fits the theme perfectly, and it does have roots in WC3.

You might be able to predict it being added, and I agree that it makes sense and it's obvious that it was an easy way to add to DKs, but by the same respect you can't act like that wasn't an addition from Wrath. And while it has roots in lore it wasn't a DK aspect, and by the same respect you can't act like Demon Hunters are just going to be how they are now, their skill set would be updated if they are added. And that's the kicker here, of course Demon Hunters as they are now wouldn't work as a class, but nothing would, it would require expansion and refocusing to make them work, and if they can make Paladins and Priests different classes they can make Warlock and Demon Hunters different.

[Koryn123]

Look up immolation aura on Wowhead.

Oh. I feel dumb now. My only excuse is that I play Destro on my Warlock, not Demonology.

The only way they could make Demon Hunters now is with severe nerfs/changes to Demonology Warlocks. So it's unlikely that Demon Hunters will ever be a class.

Blizzard needs to make some Warglaives available for xmog, then people will probably stop whining for the class.

I just maintain that lorewise, the two are very different. Gameplaywise, they are very similar, aside from not being melee except for in metamorphosis mode (are they melee in meta-form? As you know, I've never played demonology).

[Teriz]

If 'having a shadow spec' is differential enough for you between priests and paladins, then a fulll physical DPS spec would be enough of a differential between Demon Hunters and Warlocks, no?

Well no, because DHs themselves aren't fully physical. Furthermore, your argument is like saying Enhancement Shaman should be a different class than Elemental and Resto because it's melee, or that Shadow Hunters should be their own class simply because Shaman cant use bows.

And nothing says that DH can summon minions.

Illidan had the ability Summon Shadow Demon.

That was easy.

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You might be able to predict it being added, and I agree that it makes sense and it's obvious that it was an easy way to add to DKs, but by the same respect you can't act like that wasn't an addition from Wrath. And while it has roots in lore it wasn't a DK aspect, and by the same respect you can't act like Demon Hunters are just going to be how they are now, their skill set would be updated if they are added. And that's the kicker here, of course Demon Hunters as they are now wouldn't work as a class, but nothing would, it would require expansion and refocusing to make them work, and if they can make Paladins and Priests different classes they can make Warlock and Demon Hunters different.

Again, the difference is theme. DKs utilize an undead theme which no other class used. DK and other undead based abilities werent used by other classes.

DH uses a demonic theme which is already used by Warlocks, and an Assassin theme already used by Rogues. Further, the majority of recognized DH abilities are used by other classes. We also have the added problem of there being a lot of classes in the game already that can perform DW melee.

Blizzard designed it that way.

[Ielenia]

Well no, because DHs themselves aren't fully physical. Furthermore, your argument is like saying Enhancement Shaman should be a different class than Elemental and Resto because it's melee, or that Shadow Hunters should be their own class simply because Shaman cant use bows.

Where is it stated that Demon Hunters cannot have a spec dedicated to fully physical DPS? And Enhancement Shamans and Elemental and Resto Shamans are still Shamans. A Demon Hunter is not a Warlock. To say such is to say a Paladin is a Priest, yet they're not, since they're both their own, separate classes.

Illidan had the ability Summon Shadow Demon.
That was easy.

That is because you're ignoring something major: you're using Illidan, from The Black Temple raid, as your example, which already fails majorly because the BT Illidan is already a full-fledged demon, changed and corrupted by the fel energies of the Skull of Gul'Dan. He is no longer a Night Elf, and is now a Demon. At best, a Satyr. And, with such, gains new abilities. Sorry, not easy. Still waiting for evidence from Demon Hunters, not demons.

[Baconeggcheese]

So I can be a night elf warlock now plis? kthx.

[Teriz]

Where is it stated that Demon Hunters cannot have a spec dedicated to fully physical DPS?

A Demon Hunter without demonic powers is not a Demon Hunter.

And Enhancement Shamans and Elemental and Resto Shamans are still Shamans. A Demon Hunter is not a Warlock. To say such is to say a Paladin is a Priest, yet they're not, since they're both their own, separate classes.

Exactly what separates a DH from a Warlock?

That is because you're ignoring something major: you're using Illidan, from The Black Temple raid, as your example, which already fails majorly because the BT Illidan is already a full-fledged demon, changed and corrupted by the fel energies of the Skull of Gul'Dan. He is no longer a Night Elf, and is now a Demon. At best, a Satyr. And, with such, gains new abilities. Sorry, not easy. Still waiting for evidence from Demon Hunters, not demons.

None of what you described disqualifies him as being a Demon Hunter. He's still wielding the twin blades of Azzinoth. He still has the visage of Sargeras, he's still using DH abilities. Furthermore, Demon Hunters transform into demons during metamorphosis.

Illidan was still a Demon Hunter in Black Temple. He was a corrupted DH, but he was still a DH.

[Thimagryn]

And this is why pro-DH argument is ridiculous. They have a different definition of a DH than Blizzard does, and make ridiculous excuses when their argument is proved wrong over and over again.

Don't you mean pro-Warlock, since you believe they are the same thing.

[Packing an i5]

nah demon hunters would be way cooler and leeter than hunters and outshine the class that has been around since vanilla.. oh wait thats what happened with monks and rogues. I guess anything is possible.

[Teriz]

Don't you mean pro-Warlock, since you believe they are the same thing.

No, its pro-DH, since Warlocks are already in the game. They and Rogues handle the DH's theme completely. If you want to be a shadowy assassin, play a Rogue. If you want to wield demonic magic, and use it against demons, play a Warlock.

There's even plenty of magic-based melee classes in the game.

Demon Hunter is simply not needed.

I go back to that famous GC quote: "Is there enough design space the not occupied by Warlocks, DKs, Hunters and Warriors?"

No, there isn't.

Break down the DH design space and what do you have? A DW melee fighter that uses dark magic.

Warriors and DKs take the DW melee fighter design space.
DKs take the melee fighter that uses dark magic design space.
Warlocks take the dark magic design space.
Hunters take the "hunter" design space, since the class is called Demon Hunter.
I would also add that Rogues take the shadowy Assassin design space.

Everything that makes the DH unique and interesting is already taken up by existing classes.


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nah demon hunters would be way cooler and leeter than hunters and outshine the class that has been around since vanilla.. oh wait thats what happened with monks and rogues. I guess anything is possible.

That happened with Monks because Blizzard got lazy with Rogue design. They're fixing that somewhat in WoD by allowing combo points to stay on you instead of the target. They can go a few miles extra by allowing Rogues to use bows and guns fully, giving them a finishing move that increases their movement speed, and implementing the remaining Warden abilities from WC3 (Shadow Strike, Spirit of Vengeance).

[Koryn123]

Woah, cool. I might play my rogue more now. Now that I think about it, Vengeance looks kind of like the Shadow Warden lets their thirst for "vengeance" get the better of them, and they turn all grey and black and stuff. Kind of like when someone succumbs to their emotions and they get Sha stuff all over them. I wonder if the two are connected?

[Thimagryn]

No, its pro-DH, since Warlocks are already in the game.

Your arguments thus far have been Warlocks that melee are Demon Hunters. Then you went out to say Warlocks are shown to be able to melee. So a Pro-DH argument is a Pro-Warlock argument. You're definitely not being consistent if you see Demon Hunters as the same as Warlocks, yet go out of your way to defame them.

[Jtree]

I also got the armor type, and healing style correct. The only thing I got wrong was the connection to Pandaria and the Brewmaster.

Again, it was easy to know what the next class would be because of the current class lineup.

As I said, your Runemaster concept was right in only the broadest strokes. The asian martial arts and Brewmaster elements turned out to be immensely significant to what actually came along.

Not that your Runemaster is a bad idea; as I also said, it's still something that could be tossed around for future ideas.

Also, it appears to me that that idea was far more rooted in the Runemaster described in the (not canon) RPG material than anything from WC3. You now claim that all future units have to be sourced from WC3. Of course, you're free to change your mind over the years, but it does make you appear logically inconsistent.

Regardless, being generally (and vaguely) right once doesn't make you the Oracle of WoW.