demon hunters did not end with illidain

[Arberian]

So in other words the only thing preventing a Warlock from being a DH is a melee combat range.

You cant base a class around that.

Of Course I can. The Only Thing Preventing Priests in becoming Paladins is the melee combat range and attack power. Also The Mastery in Weapons.

Warlocks need: Strong Martial Combat Skills , Weapon Mastery, Spectral Sight, Mastery in Arcane Magic. Warlocks are spellcasters lorewise so they cant have the Martial Combat Skills and The Weapon Mastery.

Demon Hunters dont need Metamorphosis to be Demon Hunters. They are Shadowy Warriors and need some Demonic Stances.

Now that i have the proof that DHs arent Warlocks/Rogues , we can think how Blizzard can make this class work.

[Teriz]

Of Course I can. The Only Thing Preventing Priests in becoming Paladins is the melee combat range and attack power. Also The Mastery in Weapons.

And the fact that they have no DPS holy spec, and no Paladin uses Shadow magic.

Warlocks need: Strong Martial Combat Skills , Weapon Mastery,

Warlocks can already use swords. Warlocks already have Touch of Chaos, Netherplating, Fury Ward, Pursuit, and Demonic Leap. Not that it matters because Demon Hunters in WoW and WC3 had mostly ranged spell abilities anyway.

Spectral Sight,

Sense Demons.

Mastery in Arcane Magic.

Even DHs aren't masters of Arcane Magic.

Warlocks are spellcasters lorewise so they cant have the Martial Combat Skills and The Weapon Mastery.

Talen has shown a Warlock that fights in melee range. That argument fails. Martial Combat skills translates into melee range. That's all it is. Shaman do the exact same thing with Enhancement.

Demon Hunters dont need Metamorphosis to be Demon Hunters. They are Shadowy Warriors and need some Demonic Stances.

The only reason you feel that way is because Warlocks already have Metamorphosis. When we have to make concessions on design due to overlap, there's a serious design problem with the concept.

Now that i have the proof that DHs arent Warlocks/Rogues , we can think how Blizzard can make this class work.

You have no proof. You're just pushing your opinions around as facts. New classes need to provide something that is absent from the class lineup, not add a combat range to an existing class/theme/concept.

[Ielenia]

Rogues and Warlocks do posses the skills and abilities of the Demon Hunter. So that argument fails.

Further we can't create a class simply because of rites and training. Nor can we create a class simply because of a combat range. That isn't enough to create an entire class. Which is why we have to create this silly "Slayer" concept to compensate.

Warlocks possess one skill: metamorphosis. Rogues... none.

And here's what you can't seem to grasp: while you are right that we can't make a new class based on a single difference alone, you fail to understand that putting all those differences together does allow us to make a new class out of them. The rites, the combat range, the spell use, the armor slot, the type of weapon use... everything put together does allow us to make a new class out of them.

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And the fact that they have no DPS holy spec, and no Paladin uses Shadow magic.

Still irrelevant.

Sense Demons.

Which has been proven time and again it's not the same as 'Spectral Sight' because you can't see undead and you can't see magic around the world...

Even DHs aren't masters of Arcane Magic.

Arcane masters? Likely not. Arcane users? Why not, since Illidan studied arcane magic a lot before.

Talen has shown a Warlock that fights in melee range. That argument fails. Martial Combat skills translates into melee range. That's all it is. Shaman do the exact same thing with Enhancement.

An outdated NPC, still using rules and mechanics long removed from the player's hands. A useless relic of times past.

[Arberian]

And the fact that they have no DPS holy spec, and no Paladin uses Shadow magic.

Shadow Priests before TBC were only undeads. Still The Priest can grab a weapon and use the holy light to empower his weapon.

Warlocks can already use swords. Warlocks already have Touch of Chaos, Netherplating, Fury Ward, Pursuit, and Demonic Leap. Not that it matters because Demon Hunters in WoW and WC3 had mostly ranged spell abilities anyway.

Using doesnt mean mastering. And the abilities you listed are based on intellect. Nothing weapon based on your abilities.

Sense Demons.

And Track Undeads ... For The Demon Hunters.

Even DHs aren't masters of Arcane Magic.

I agree but they can use it in many ways.

Talen has shown a Warlock that fights in melee range. That argument fails. Martial Combat skills translates into melee range. That's all it is. Shaman do the exact same thing with Enhancement.

Yes translates into melee range but that doesnt make warlocks demon hunters. They need the weapon mastery.

The only reason you feel that way is because Warlocks already have Metamorphosis. When we have to make concessions on design due to overlap, there's a serious design problem with the concept.

If warlocks have meta Demon Hunters must not use this ability due to overlap. Still we can create new abilities based on their concept. Abilities=imagination=infinity.

You have no proof. You're just pushing your opinions around as facts. New classes need to provide something that is absent from the class lineup, not add a combat range to an existing class/theme/concept.

Still the warlocks are spellcasters and Demon Hunters are Shadowy warriors. Still The Priests are spellcasters and the Paladins are The Warriors of The Light. AS for the combat range of the existing class----> Brand New Spells and Abilities for the Demon Hunters that have nothing to do with the Warlocks/Rogues. Where is the change between Flash Heal and Flash of Light?! Where is the Change between Conflagrate and Fire Blast. Same Animations, similar damage. Similarities will always exist. Abilities=imagination=infinity. Desing Space= Infinity.

[Teriz]

Warlocks possess one skill: metamorphosis. Rogues... none.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/night...onhunter.shtml

Third spell down.

http://heroesofthestorm.gamepedia.com/Illidan

Fourth spell down.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=37683

Look at all the DH users.

Protip: Ignoring facts doesn't improve your argument.

Still irrelevant.

Of course it is.

Arcane masters? Likely not. Arcane users? Why not, since Illidan studied arcane magic a lot before.

Back when Illidan was a mage. We already have a mage class.

[Ielenia]

http://classic.battle.net/war3/night...onhunter.shtml
Third spell down.
http://heroesofthestorm.gamepedia.com/Illidan
Fourth spell down.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=37683
Look at all the DH users.
Protip: Ignoring facts doesn't improve your argument.

It's still irrelevant. Because DHs are using ability toolkits from other classes rather than their own, since their own toolkit is non-existent in WoW because the DH player class does not exist yet. The same thing happened to Death Knights.

Of course it is.

No, it's not. It's a simple differential between them, which does not change the fact both classes' cores are firmly entrenched in the Light and holy magic.

Back when Illidan was a mage. We already have a mage class.

Please show me how that would stop any other class from having arcane spells. Protip: it wouldn't. Nothing but your own closed mind are "stopping" the possibility Demon Hunters could have, for example, an arcane melee spec.

[Teriz]

Shadow Priests before TBC were only undeads. Still The Priest can grab a weapon and use the holy light to empower his weapon.

There are no Holy DPS specs within the Priest class though. In order to turn a priest into a Paladin, you need to add a Holy DPS spec, AND remove the Shadow spec from the class. This along with allowing Priests to wield shields, 2h weapons and swords.

That's way more than simply allowing Warlocks to DW.

Using doesnt mean mastering. And the abilities you listed are based on intellect. Nothing weapon based on your abilities.

Semantics. "Mastering a weapon" in WoW simply means how fast and accurate you attack with a melee weapon.

And Track Undeads ... For The Demon Hunters.

Then add a tracking undead component. You really think the inability to track undead on an ability that can track demons warrants an entirely new class?

I agree but they can use it in many ways.

Please list the DH abilities from WC3, WoW, and HotS that are Arcane based.

Yes translates into melee range but that doesnt make warlocks demon hunters. They need the weapon mastery.

Again, they can already use swords, so all we need is to give them a few abilities that work in melee range. They already have Demonic Slash.

If warlocks have meta Demon Hunters must not use this ability due to overlap. Still we can create new abilities based on their concept. Abilities=imagination=infinity.

So if we need to create all new abilities to avoid overlap, why are we bothering with Demon Hunters in the first place? Why not just create an all-new, all-different WoW class?

[Ielenia]

Then add a tracking undead component. You really think the inability to track undead on an ability that can track demons warrants an entirely new class?

Stop playing dumb and trying to insinuate people want Demon Hunters based solely on a single difference between them and Warlocks.

[Teriz]

It's still irrelevant. Because DHs are using ability toolkits from other classes rather than their own, since their own toolkit is non-existent in WoW because the DH player class does not exist yet. The same thing happened to Death Knights.

WC3 DH abilities:

Mana Burn
Immolation
Metamorphosis
Evasion

Netharel's abilities:

Evasion
Mana Burn
Metamorphosis

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21164#abilities

Alandien's abilities:

Mana Burn
Metamorphosis

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21171#abilities

Evasion
Mana Burn

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21178#abilities

Theras' abilities;

Mana Burn
Metamorphosi

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21168#abilities

You're wrong again.

[Larynx]

can we turn this into an argument about tinkers yet?

that's more entertaining, watching Teriz jump hoops to try to rationalize it. Even more hoops than usual.

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http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21168#abilities

He has an ability called "Spellbreaker".

I guess that shoots down my hopes for a Magehunter/Spellbreaker/Battlemage kind of class.

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There are no Holy DPS specs within the Priest class though. In order to turn a priest into a Paladin, you need to add a Holy DPS spec, AND remove the Shadow spec from the class. This along with allowing Priests to wield shields, 2h weapons and swords.

That's way more than simply allowing Warlocks to DW.

Smite, Holy Fire, Penance and Chastise are examples of damaging holy magic.

All of your claims are completely arbitrary or irrelevant. In order to turn a warlock into a demon hunter, you need to remove the destruction spec and affliction spec, and overhaul the demonology spec. You also need to remove summoning demons and other iconic warlock abilities. This along with allowing warlocks to dual wield, and adding appropriate melee abilities. Do you see the symmetry yet?

Of course that's ridiculous, and you might as well add a different class at that point.

Hey.

[Jtree]

But all that doesn't answer the question - leaving aside the Dark Embrace stuff, what is the difference between a Demon Hunter and a skilled meleeing Warlock such as Nethekurse?

Netherkurse is an anomaly among warlocks, and aside from bearing that class name he does not represent the playable class as it was in BC, as it is today, or as it appears it will be in MoP.

If anything, there is less of a difference between the shadow-and-steel weilding fel orc Netherkurse, compared to Illidan, than there is between the so-called "Grand Warlock" and the true ultimate warlock, Kanrethad Ebonlocke.

As I asked before, why consider Netherkurse a representative of warlocks in general? We have a huge volume of lore and game design history for the lock class, a decade of it now. We have a strong sense of what they are, what they do, why and how they do it. Netherkurse does not fall in line with any of that.

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Which isn't lore-accurate. Master Technology users in WoW (Blackfuse, Thermaplugg, Mekkatorque, etc.) can destroy entire armies with their abilities. At the very least, a technology user should be able to kill an equal level mob.

A level 90 Rogue can kill an equal level mob in Pandaria with the Blades of Azzinoth and the Cursed Vision of Sargeras. Furthermore, that same level 90 Rogue can enter demon infested areas of Azeroth and kill any demon there. That is lore accurate for a Demon Hunter in the Warcraft universe.

So, "cosplay for thee, but not for me".

[Teriz]

Smite, Holy Fire, Penance and Chastise are examples of damaging holy magic.

All of your claims are completely arbitrary or irrelevant. In order to turn a warlock into a demon hunter, you need to remove the destruction spec and affliction spec, and overhaul the demonology spec. You also need to remove summoning demons and other iconic warlock abilities. This along with allowing warlocks to dual wield, and adding appropriate melee abilities. Do you see the symmetry yet?

No, because you're wrong. All you need to do is place a stance within Demonology that switches the ranged DPS into melee DPS. It would work just like Crane Stance with Mistweavers. The entire Warlock class doesn't need to turn into DHs. All you need is for DH to be a small subset of the overarching Warlock theme. The basics are already in place.

[Larynx]

No, because you're wrong. All you need to do is place a stance within Demonology that switches the ranged DPS into melee DPS. It would work just like Crane Stance with Mistweavers. The entire Warlock class doesn't need to turn into DHs. All you need is for DH to be a small subset of the overarching Warlock theme. The basics are already in place.

You entirely missed the point of the post.

Good job, champion.

Tell me now why none of this applies to the Priest/Paladin dichotomy?

[Ielenia]

WC3 DH abilities:
Mana Burn Immolation Metamorphosis Evasion
Netharel's abilities:
Evasion Mana Burn Metamorphosis
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21164#abilities
Alandien's abilities:
Mana Burn Metamorphosis
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21171#abilities
Evasion Mana Burn
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21178#abilities
Theras' abilities;
Mana Burn Metamorphosi
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=21168#abilities
You're wrong again.

I'm not wrong. There is no 'Demon Hunter ability toolkit' in WoW. Because the class does not exist for players. There isn't.

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You entirely missed the point of the post.
Good job, champion.
Tell me now why none of this applies to the Priest/Paladin dichotomy?

That's all he does: 'you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong'.

[Teriz]

You entirely missed the point of the post.

Good job, champion.

Tell me now why none of this applies to the Priest/Paladin dichotomy?

1. There are no Priest Holy DPS specs.
2. Paladins do not use shadow magic.
3. Priests cannot use 2H weapons
4. Priests cannot use Shields.
5. Priests cannot use swords

In order for us to give Warlocks a DH spec, all we need is to allow them to fight in melee range.

[Thimagryn]

1. There are no Priest Holy DPS specs.
2. Paladins do not use shadow magic.
3. Priests cannot use 2H weapons
4. Priests cannot use Shields.
5. Priests cannot use swords

In order for us to give Warlocks a DH spec, all we need is to allow them to fight in melee range.

5 points that parrot the 'Warlocks can't dual wield' argument. That's all that boils down to, buddy.

[Larynx]

1. There are no Priest Holy DPS specs.
2. Paladins do not use shadow magic.
3. Priests cannot use 2H weapons
4. Priests cannot use Shields.
5. Priests cannot use swords

In order for us to give Warlocks a DH spec, all we need is to allow them to fight in melee range.

Why are warlocks/DH exempt from the same restrictions placed on priests/paladins?

You haven't even answered or attempted to respond to my post. You're beating around the bush because you're afraid of being a hypocrite. Prove me wrong. You seem to love to do that to other people.

[Talen]

When did warlocks became good at using weapons

Melee capable warlocks exist. Nethekurse by himself destroys trhe idea that all Warlocks are pure casters. And that's without looking at its actual game history where it has had a relatively strong melee role for much of its existance.


"Good at weapons" is also a bit misleading. The DH is a meleer. That coudl mena it'd be liek the warrior and a master of weaposn based combat - or it could be like the Shaman, with a limited selefction of weapon attacks to back up a spell based system.

If 1 , 2 or 3 Demon Hunters summon Demons that doesnt mean that all Demon Hunters can do this.

Which isn't what I asked. If DHs were shown to summon demons...what lore would be broken? None. Indeed, as Demon Hunters one could even say that knowing the summoning process would likely to be something they would know...even if it wasn't something they used often.

But still some questions remain: Are warlocks Warriors ?! Are Warlocks masters in martial combat ?! Are Warlocks masters in using weapons?! Are Warlocks DEMON HUNTERS?!

Apparently so. Noones been able to show any meaningful difference between the two.

You want to see a Demon Hunter ORIGINAL CLASS IDEA click here

Come up with an idea that both keeps the overlap which provides the existing models identity and yet gets rid of the overlap so its worth developing as a separate class.


Then you can talk.

Well he's also making the point to strip all lore.

All lore from the Dark Embrace "faction". Not from Demon Hunters. A Paladin without the Silver Hand is still a Paladin. A Shaman can still be a Shaman without being part of the Earthen Ring. And you've stated that Demon Hunter doesn't need the DE to be a Demon Hunter.


So - strip out that DE lore and what is the difference between a DH and a melee Warlock? Your answer was Dual Wielding. Which makes sense because EVERYTHING you wanted from a DH was from the DE.

Giving a 4th DH spec to Rogues/Warlocks totally goes against the lore.
Adding DH as a class is not against the lore.

You would do well to actually learn the lore before commenting. Both the relatively strong melee presence of the Warlock for much of its ingame history AND the existence of the melee Warlock shows you wrong. You are also wrong in presuming that adding a class is a lore issue. Its not...its a game design issue.

Of Course I can. The Only Thing Preventing Priests in becoming Paladins is

....most of their in game design space.

Warlocks need: Strong Martial Combat Skills , Weapon Mastery, Spectral Sight, Mastery in Arcane Magic.

A list of stuff which is either wrong, your opinion or stuff the Warlcok already has. Great...that gets rid of your obstacles....

Warlocks are spellcasters lorewise so they cant have the Martial Combat Skills and The Weapon Mastery.

So - Elemental Shamans cannot exist because Enhancement Shamans do? Feral Druids can't exist because we have balance?


Isn't it fun when the game uttlery destroys your argument?

we can think how Blizzard can make this class work.

It can either not add it at all, rewrite the entire DH design space and so destroy the class concept, or it can attach it to an existing class.


Pick one.

Netherkurse is an anomaly among warlocks

Lorewwise, an unproven opinion. He may be rare or just uncommon. Even if he were unique, he acts as precedent and example. In lore, he was a Warlocks who fought using the sword and spell.


And that doesn't answer the question....which doesn't care if Nethekurse is unique or not.


Leaving aside the Dark Embrace stuff, what is the difference between a Demon Hunter and a skilled meleeing Warlock such as Nethekurse?


If there is some big core fundamental difference, this shouldn't be a difficult question to answer. Just tell us once and for all what that difference is.


We have "Dual Wielding" as an answer from Thimagryn. What is yours?


EJL

[Ielenia]

In order for us to give Warlocks a DH spec, all we need is to allow them to fight in melee range.

And give them melee shadow abilities;
And give them ability to use a different armor type;
And give them the ability to dual-wield;
And give them the ability to use arcane;
And completely destroy and obliterate lore by letting Night Elves be warlocks...

[Larynx]

We have "Dual Wielding" as an answer from Thimagryn. What is yours?

Sense of purpose.

Demon Hunters are not Warlocks with glaives, or a melee combatant that uses fel magic. There's much more to them than that. It has a sense of identity not present in any other class. Warlock is without a doubt the closest playable classes come to mimicking a warlock, but only superficially.