Arms Rotation in Beta?

[Felroar]

Why would you spec impending victory for questing?

I'd assume because Second Wind doesn't exist in its live form anymore, making it not as desirable for solo play. Though personally with the recent buffs I'd probably stick with enraged regen no matter what content I was doing.

[Secondwind]

I'd assume because Second Wind doesn't exist in its live form anymore, making it not as desirable for solo play. Though personally with the recent buffs I'd probably stick with enraged regen no matter what content I was doing.

While questing you should be killing mobs faster than 1 per 30 seconds, which makes Impending Victory totally useless. Enraged Regen right now is the only viable talent for quest content (and arguably for any content, but I can see an argument for IV in raids. Slight DPS loss in exchange for on demand burst healing more often than ER)

[Earthbound]

Why would you spec impending victory for questing?

It's another button to hit?

[Secondwind]

It's another button to hit?

Less damage\rage efficient than ww by a mile and as noted vr will proc more than the 30s impending victory cool down while questing anyway

[Rorke]

There's really nothing wrong with Beta Arms Warrior its just that people that play Warriors are too accustomed to mashing a button every single gcd while channeling abilities off gcd at the same time. Arms Warriors have always been mashy and now that they're taking it away, it feels "easy" even though it's always been easy. I don't know why people keep talking about bringing Overpower back when that ability goes against what they're trying to do with Arms in WoD.

They're designing Arms to be a harder hitting, GCD locked, easier version of a 2 handed Frost DK. If you want to mash buttons on fast 1.0 gcd's, play a Frost DK because Arms is going to be more similar to Assassination Rogue playstyle come WoD.

[Facerockker]

Slam, overpower, and heroic strike.

That's unbelievably ridiculous. I don't play a warrior but I can't even imagine how dull and monotonous that would be.

[valenwood]

So i posted this not long ago on the general 6.0 changes thread and either its bad or no one intelligent is online (or they have made themselves chemically less intelligent) because it didn't get a single reply. I'll try a more focused thread.


:




We do need inter-ACTION with rend. I don't like another proc off a rend tick, that's just way too boring. Lets get back on the Impale train and see what we can come up with:

Impale - Consumes rend and instantly deals the total amount of damage rend has remaining. 40 rage. [rage cost makes the damage from rend less rage efficient, since an impale would do the same damage as if you let rend expire, but just forces it to do all that damage NOW, increasing the DPE]. In moment of higher rage you could afford to use this more and even immediately after a rend was applied for extreme high damage burst.

|OR|

Impale - Consumes rend and instantly deals the total amount of damage rend has done so far. [my note: this would make it better to cast at the end and would compete with the end burst, or take it's place]. 20 rage. This implementation would INCREASE the rage efficiency of rend, or rather would inherit it's own efficiency that increases the longer rend is up. Letting rend drop would award you with a maximally efficient end burst, but would not do as much total damage. Similar to TBC healing druid's Lifebloom spell. Skill would come in the shape of hitting impale as close as possible to the last dot. That may be annoying, not sure.


Start thinking out of the proc-box

[Secondwind]

Honestly either of those ends up being pretty boring. Borderline useless.


Like what is the point of the first one even? It provides no DPS gain at all. You spend a GCD and a bunch of rage... to deal damage you were already going to deal over time anyway? There is no DPS gain there. Using Impale is a DPS loss. Even if Impale was a gain (say by adding a multiplier to the damage done by impale. So deal twice the damage stored in rend or something), then all you do is hit Rend+Impale when you have the rage available for it. It doesn't add any depth besides forcing those two abilities to be used back to back.

The second one has a little more potential, mostly because it is a DPS gain since it lets you re-deal all of the damage you already dealt again, though depending on how big the burst tick at the end is, it could still be a loss. For now we'll assume the burst at the end is small enough that the rest of the DoT combined is better... but even with that assumption you then need to consider if it is better enough to be worth spending the rage on it. If you get past all that and the answer is still yes, now you just have a rotation where during that last 3 seconds where you would normally refresh Rend, you now hit Impale, and then put up a new Rend. Again, no real depth added to the rotation



Now I'm not against the idea of an attack that consumes bleeds, buffs, or whatever else to deal a big hit (I've talked about similar things several times in the past, most recently over in the other Beta Arms topic a few days back), but this attempt at it doesn't really add much. It gives an extra button to press, but nothing interesting or dynamic about how to use it. Either use right after Rend, or right before it expires. Boring.

[Leih]

I don't particularly like gameplay where you have to track specific DoT ticks and durations and try to time abilities to coincide with that. It's awkward, and generally requires a specific addon telling you when to do it because actually manually tracking it while doing the rest of an encounter and keeping track of everything else going on in a raid is just a massive pain.

Something that does damage based on the number of DoTs or does higher damage if a particular DoT is up can be okay, but using it at specific times during a DoT's duration (especially if you have to pay attention to specific ticks) is just a recipe for mandatory addons, just like swing timer based timing, I want both of those things to be discouraged.

[Aeno]

I don't particularly like gameplay where you have to track specific DoT ticks and durations and try to time abilities to coincide with that. It's awkward, and generally requires a specific addon telling you when to do it because actually manually tracking it while doing the rest of an encounter and keeping track of everything else going on in a raid is just a massive pain.

Something that does damage based on the number of DoTs or does higher damage if a particular DoT is up can be okay, but using it at specific times during a DoT's duration (especially if you have to pay attention to specific ticks) is just a recipe for mandatory addons, just like swing timer based timing, I want both of those things to be discouraged.

Then get an addon.

After I read this on the notes, I said to myself, "This has to be a joke."

We might as well be vanilla paladins.

Paladins in vanilla? Easy as fuck compared to Warriors bro.
Use Seal
Judgment
Repeat

[Leih]

Then get an addon.

Mandatory addons to cope with a badly designed mechanic is really really horrible. I don't know what to say if you think that it's a good idea.

Classes should not be designed intentionally to be so obtuse and hard to deal with that you must have an addon to tell you when to hit your keys. It's not fun, it's not interesting, it takes no skill. Blizzard agree, and that's why archaic systems like this get phased out when they find a way to do so.

[Aeno]

Mandatory addons to cope with a badly designed mechanic is really really horrible. I don't know what to say if you think that it's a good idea.

Classes should not be designed intentionally to be so obtuse and hard to deal with that you must have an addon to tell you when to hit your keys. It's not fun, it's not interesting, it takes no skill. Blizzard agree, and that's why archaic systems like this get phased out when they find a way to do so.

Tell me how many people have DBM when we have an in-game Raid/Dungeon journal for mechanics and "STAHP STENDIN IN FIYAH" warnings. They are shit so we use an addon. Same for oQueue's purpose even after Raid Finder got a "revamp".

[Leih]

So basically you completely misinterpreted what I said and decided to label me as some kind of ADDONS ARE BAD USE THE DEFAULT UI purist?

I use loads of addons. I have an entirely addon-based UI. That's not the point.

Addons are great. Addons allow you to enhance your UI to suit your needs. Wonderful.

But deliberately designing the basic rotation of a spec to require the community to develop and use a specific addon just to play it well? Bad design. It's the same reason they discouraged swing timer gameplay (like old Slam, or Steady Shot/Aimed Shot timing) because it was impossible to play properly without addons to cover the very basics of your rotation.

Timing abilities based on specific ticks of DoTs (bearing in mind we get partial ticks and varying durations based on our Haste) is just another mechanic like that and should be kept out of the game.

[Aeno]

So basically you completely misinterpreted what I said and decided to label me as some kind of ADDONS ARE BAD USE THE DEFAULT UI purist?

Yes, yes that is what I said. Obviously. Go back and read exactly what I said and you will find that.

But deliberately designing the basic rotation of a spec to require the community to develop and use a specific addon just to play it well? Bad design. It's the same reason they discouraged swing timer gameplay (like old Slam, or Steady Shot/Aimed Shot timing) because it was impossible to play properly without addons to cover the very basics of your rotation.

I'm not condoning the design. I'm just saying that if you still enjoy your class you can put up with an addon or complain.

[Leih]

I'm not condoning the design. I'm just saying that if you still enjoy your class you can put up with an addon or complain.

Actually you rudely said "Well get an addon" implying that I'm some kind of idiot for that not occurring to me.

I was initially replying to a suggestion by valenwod for changing our rotation to involve timing a burst damage move to hit with the last tick of Rend. I was saying that deliberately designing the ability that way was a bad idea.

If there is something in the game that already requires an addon to play, then yes I would put up with it and bite the bullet, getting the addon so I could continue playing. But to intentionally suggest they add something that would clearly go in this direction? I was pointing out that's a bad idea.

I'm not really sure what your point is, maybe you just missed what I was responding to and took my comment out of context?

[Aeno]

Actually you rudely said "Well get an addon" implying that I'm some kind of idiot for that not occurring to me.

I was initially replying to a suggestion by valenwod for changing our rotation to involve timing a burst damage move to hit with the last tick of Rend. I was saying that deliberately designing the ability that way was a bad idea.

If there is something in the game that already requires an addon to play, then yes I would put up with it and bite the bullet, getting the addon so I could continue playing. But to intentionally suggest they add something that would clearly go in this direction? I was pointing out that's a bad idea.

I'm not really sure what your point is, maybe you just missed what I was responding to and took my comment out of context?

Yes. I implied that you are an idiot because I gave you a command. smh

All DoTs are generally refreshed after/just before the last tick anyways, so I don't see the issue, aside from applying it on enemies that are about to die/enemies that easily die. And even then, why would you waste the Rage on a DoT?

I'm not sure what YOUR point is, really, and you actually misinterpreted my comment and blew it out of proportion.

[Luko]

Aaaaaaaanyway.

How bout that rend? And Slam talent?

-Rage generation increased by 20% for Arms.
-Rend returns for Arms. Costs 10 Rage, deals damage over 18sec, with a burst of bleed damage at the end. Total damage is similar to a Mortal Strike.
-Thunder Clap is usable in any stance. AoE damage and snares, 6sec cooldown. 30 Rage cost for Arms, free for Protection.
-We’re replace the level 45 talent row (Staggering Shout / Piercing Howl / Disrupting Shout) with:
Varies by spec:
-Arms – Taste for Blood: Passive. Rend ticks grant 3 Rage.
-Fury – Furious Strikes: Passive. Reduces the cost of Wild Strike by 10 Rage.
-Protection – Heavy Repercussions: Passive. Shield Slam deals 50% additional damage while Shield Block or Shield Charge is active.
-Sudden Death: Passive. Auto attacks have a chance to trigger Sudden Death, making your next Execute free and usable on targets above 20% health.
Varies by spec:
-Arms – Slam: Active ability. Costs 10 Rage. Deals 100% weapon damage. Each consecutive use increases Slam’s damage by 50% and Rage cost by 100%, stacking up to 2 times.
-Fury – Unquenchable Thirst: Passive. Bloodthirst has no cooldown.
-Protection – Unyielding Strikes: Passive. Devastate reduces the Rage cost of Heroic Strike by 6, stacking up to 5 times. Lasts 10 sec. No longer refreshes while at 5 stacks.

Again, this is all very much in the formative stages. Any or all of the above could end up changing in any number of ways. But we are listening, and are doing our best to make Warrior gameplay awesome in Warlords.

[Aeno]

Rend needs to be applied via TClap or that's a useless spender. Maybe 50% damage as well so that it isn't broken.
Rend seems iffy as such a long DoT but is more burst at the end.

Slam talent needs to be baseline, or at least the rage cost and just add in the damage for the talent.

Sudden Death should also be baseline.

[Leih]

All DoTs are generally refreshed after/just before the last tick anyways, so I don't see the issue, aside from applying it on enemies that are about to die/enemies that easily die. And even then, why would you waste the Rage on a DoT?

I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about now. Why are you talking about refreshing the DoT? This was about timing a separate (theoretical) ability to go off during a particular tick of Rend to maximise DPS. This is nothing to do with the difficulty in refreshing Rend or any other DoT.

Anyway, I'm done. I don't think we're even talking about the same thing. Waste of time.

[Aeno]

I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about now. Why are you talking about refreshing the DoT? This was about timing a separate (theoretical) ability to go off during a particular tick of Rend to maximise DPS. This is nothing to do with the difficulty in refreshing Rend or any other DoT.

Anyway, I'm done. I don't think we're even talking about the same thing. Waste of time.

Maximizing burst like that? I could see it being useful for a PvP scenario. But you generally won't be able to do such a thing in a PvP environment. At least with MoP PvP playstyles.