"Promised content"

[Ghiroza]

Yes because the dev's should never leave their office and have a social life. May I suggest you try this as clearly you have become disillusioned and need to step away for a bit...

[Deleted]

Yes because the dev's should never leave their office and have a social life.

Probably they should stop using the same twitter account for both talking about their drug consumption and releasing first hand informations about the game?

[Ghiroza]

Oh noes not a beer!!!!

[Grimtide]

I think when people say 'promised' they'd be better to say 'reasonable expectation'. I also think Blizzard knowingly allows people to run away with 'reasonable expectations' and uses the 'we never promised' excuse when they don't deliver, because technically they never promise anything yet people always scream 'omg blizz promised x, y and z!', making it very easy for them.

[Deleted]

When asked about 80% cuts to WOD

Lore

We've made some cuts since Blizzcon, yes, but not nearly that many. We try to be as open as possible about what we’re dreaming up when we first announce an expansion, but a lot of things change and evolve from those basic concepts as development ramps up.

So they went from a lot further in development to that statement from Lore!

Think the moral of the story is....just remember blizzCON is a staged company event, full of hype propaganda and BS made to make it exiting.....if we all remember that, players will never get upset again thinking they are telling the truth.

[Verdell]

When asked about 80% cuts to WOD

Lore

We've made some cuts since Blizzcon, yes, but not nearly that many. We try to be as open as possible about what we’re dreaming up when we first announce an expansion, but a lot of things change and evolve from those basic concepts as development ramps up.

So they went from a lot further in development to that statement from Lore!

Think the moral of the story is....just remember blizzCON is a staged company event, full of hype propaganda and BS made to make it exiting.....if we all remember that, players will never get upset again thinking they are telling the truth.

Your sig says it all. WoW is not the only thing out there. Unhappy with the direction? Go play something else. Can't find another game to play? Go find a different hobby.

As far as "listening to the consumer", consumers are stupid. If every company listened to us, the world would be full of terrible products. Let the smart guys do their thing and stop trying to twist and mold things into your likes. You aren't a special snowflake and no matter how much YOU think the game would be better with YOUR ideas, it won't be.

[Deleted]

As far as "listening to the consumer", consumers are stupid. If every company listened to us, the world would be full of terrible products. Let the smart guys do their thing and stop trying to twist and mold things into your likes. You aren't a special snowflake and no matter how much YOU think the game would be better with YOUR ideas, it won't be.

You sound like blizzard. They dont value their customers as well.

[Bladesyphon]

You sound like blizzard. They dont value their customers as well.

No, he's right, and you're a prime example of what he's referring to.

There's a *huge* difference between valuing their customers, and listening to every beck and call they have and catering entirely to them. Believe it or not, the developers of WoW know better on what's good for the game, and the direction they want to take it in, than you do. That doesn't mean they don't value your feed back, and for some things they do listen to, in particular universally disliked features or class changes.

But Blizzard isn't, nor is any good developer, going to respond to and implement every.single suggestion (or in the case of WoW's fanbase, demands) that's thrown their way. That would lead to a total hodge podge of the game, alienation of a VAST majority of players, and generally: catering to an outspoken, vocal minority that want a game tailored to them, and only them, and not one that everyone can enjoy.

[Jokerfiend]

Of course they market the game through the development process. More than ever now. It wasn't an accident that top streamers got early access to the alpha.

We got more and faster content for a while although I'm as disappointed as anyone else about how it's gone since the last patch.*

Writing about WoD and going back to Blizzcon though: I do tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and think they're sincere about their plans when they talk about them. A year can change a lot and what might have looked like a great idea on paper may look like crap once it's prototyped so that happens. So I'm not surprised that what they plan and what finally comes out at the end aren't always the same thing.

The difference between this process and movies is pretty simple: through streaming and the VAST amount of information, media and whatnot that now accompanies a triple-A release pretty much anything you want to know including full play-throughs of significant chunks of content is there for the watching prior to purchase.

Personal note: I don't go to movies based purely on trailers. I just don't. I don't buy $60 games without doing some research either.

*I believe there are reasons for that that relate to personnel issues and scope creep for the expansion. I do believe that the under-the-hood stuff going on with this expansion is more extensive than anyone in Irvine expected at Blizzcon. Whether or not that is related to GC and Pardo taking off is an interesting point for speculation but off-topic for the thread. Gotta love footnotes for forum posts. Academics! Bah!!

So your OK with "buyer beware" attitude? I respect that, I just don't agree with it.

I think advertising/marketing through the development process is underhanded and slightly shady. Whatever happened to trusting someone to produce? If I have to play the game before I even purchase the game, then what's the point of experiencing? Marketing the game in the development process IS biting them in the ass, in the long run.

Doing research for a game BEFORE you buy it, it's not my bag baby. I haven't experienced beta, at all. Haven't seen videos nor streams. So I have to wait. Since my brother is super hyped for WoD and will be buying it. I guess, I'm along for the ride.

While you haven't went to movies based on trailers, BILLIONS do at some point. When the person gets burned by the marketing, they might learn, they might not. So when you cycle so many customers, as Blizzard, EVENTUALLY you will burn them enough to learn. Though, I have to ask the question; Why burn them to begin with?

[Deleted]

It's amazing the amount of sheep Blizzard has.

Apple would love to steal some.

[Verdell]

Also (And sorry if it was already mentioned in the previous 100 pages) but when was anything that has been delayed "promised"? Since when did Blizzcon become a Promisecon?

[Jokerfiend]

No, he's right, and you're a prime example of what he's referring to.

There's a *huge* difference between valuing their customers, and listening to every beck and call they have and catering entirely to them. Believe it or not, the developers of WoW know better on what's good for the game, and the direction they want to take it in, than you do. That doesn't mean they don't value your feed back, and for some things they do listen to, in particular universally disliked features or class changes.

But Blizzard isn't, nor is any good developer, going to respond to and implement every.single suggestion (or in the case of WoW's fanbase, demands) that's thrown their way. That would lead to a total hodge podge of the game, alienation of a VAST majority of players, and generally: catering to an outspoken, vocal minority that want a game tailored to them, and only them, and not one that everyone can enjoy.

Remember that, for the next restaurant you walk into. When you order your Gluten-Free, Soy Cream, Free Ranged, Medium Rare with No Juice, Fettuccine Alfredo with sauce on the side, in 3 separate ramekins. When the waiter looks at you and says, um NO.

Society teaches "The customer is ALWAYS right." It's wrong, simply. Yet, it's not the way its taught. People in customer service deal with the entitled attitudes that pervade society. Simply put, while we know these picky people need to suck it up. No one does a thing about it, and culture IS catering to them.

So, no, you are wrong.

[Verdell]

It's amazing the amount of sheep Blizzard has.

Apple would love to steal some.

Lol, typical response. I'll bite though. Just bought a MacBook myself, Have an iPhone and iPad and know what, not regretting a single buying decision. There's a reason MILLIONS of people have Apple products and why they have BILLIONS of dollars in cash on hand. They. Make. Great. Products. Do they listen to feedback? Absolutely. Do they implement changes based on that feedback? Absolutely. Do they change EVERY thing their customer base wants? Hell no. Why Because the consumer doesn't know anything technical.

All of the above can be said for Blizzard as well. They listen, the respond. Just because they don't respond to you every demand doesn't make them a bad company, it makes them a smart company.

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Remember that, for the next restaurant you walk into. When you order your Gluten-Free, Soy Cream, Free Ranged, Medium Rare with No Juice, Fettuccine Alfredo with sauce on the side, in 3 separate ramekins. When the waiter looks at you and says, um NO.

Society teaches "The customer is ALWAYS right." It's wrong, simply. Yet, it's not the way its taught. People in customer service deal with the entitled attitudes that pervade society. Simply put, while we know these picky people need to suck it up. No one does a thing about it, and culture IS catering to them.

So, no, you are wrong.

You aren't talking apples to apples though. Going into a restaurant and developing a game are not similar. We don't see the devs face-to-face like you see a server. The menu at a restaurant is by no means as complex as writing code for a game.

I will say that the "customer is always right" mentality is blown way out of proportion and as time goes on, becomes invalid. The customer "thinks" they are right and the right thing to do for any "small business" is to give in and avoid the hassle. We aren't talking small business, we are talking multi-million dollar gaming, that simply can't bow down to the will of every "right" customer.

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You sound like blizzard. They dont value their customers as well.

Right, cause you know, being in business for 20+ years works if you ignore your customer and fan base.

[Jokerfiend]

Also (And sorry if it was already mentioned in the previous 100 pages) but when was anything that has been delayed "promised"? Since when did Blizzcon become a Promisecon?

Like I have been talking about, if you have been paying attention. The problem lies in the way they market the expansions. They load the hype train with features and direction for Blizzcon, don't have to keep to anything they say, dump off things they can't or decide they won't do. It's a brilliant scheme, market the development process, rake in free advertisements, while not having to produce.

Ever had a problem with a restaurant not having something on the menu? Same thing.

[Jokerfiend]

You aren't talking apples to apples though. Going into a restaurant and developing a game are not similar. We don't see the devs face-to-face like you see a server. The menu at a restaurant is by no means as complex as writing code for a game.

I will say that the "customer is always right" mentality is blown way out of proportion and as time goes on, becomes invalid. The customer "thinks" they are right and the right thing to do for any "small business" is to give in and avoid the hassle. We aren't talking small business, we are talking multi-million dollar gaming, that simply can't bow down to the will of every "right" customer.

That is where you are wrong. It's art to be consumed, with restaurants; literally. I don't work for a "small" business, we are a publicly owned and traded company. We cater to every fucking whim.

You're making false equivalency with "complicated". It is apples to apples. Consumers need to consumers needs, and the similarities of customer service expectations. People react the EXACT same way, when we have to 86 something at the Rant, is the same way people react when Blizzard has to 86 a feature. Simple as that.

[Verdell]

That is where you are wrong. It's art to be consumed, with restaurants; literally. I don't work for a "small" business, we are a publicly owned and traded company. We cater to every fucking whim.

You're making false equivalency with "complicated". It is apples to apples. Consumers need to consumers needs, and the similarities of customer service expectations. People react the EXACT same way, when we have to 86 something at the Rant, is the same way people react when Blizzard has to 86 a feature. Simple as that.

How is your company going to stay in business if you cater to every whim? At some point, your owner is going to have to draw a line in the sand. Otherwise, you'll never grow a base and ALWAYS be in flux.

I think the point in all of this is that there are always going to be two sides and no matter what Blizzard does, it's going piss someone off.

[Deleted]

Are you sure? I mean... Look at all of the Azeroth main cities that aren't SW or Org. They were once cool, atmospheric cities... and now... NOTHING. That leads me to believe that cities aren't really all that important. Cities are more like a flavor of the month.

And do you know why? Becouse most of these citis missing tons of vendors and features compared to OG or SW.

[Deleted]

No, he's right, and you're a prime example of what he's referring to.

I dont demand anything. Still i know what i have to think about blizzard. They are a billion dollar company, trying to reduce their development effort for their cash cow World of Warcraft. That seems to be their primary directive for the game in its current stage.

I dont think i am able to change their greedy behaviour. I am not even interested in changing them. I just talk about how i see them, and i argument it. And currently, blizzard is even worse than EA, just looking at the money made and being interested in reducing the development effort as much as possible.

There's a *huge* difference between valuing their customers, and listening to every beck and call they have and catering entirely to them.

Sure, but blizzard doesnt both.

But Blizzard isn't, nor is any good developer, going to respond to and implement every.single suggestion (or in the case of WoW's fanbase, demands) that's thrown their way.

You are wrong here. First, the blizzard devs are no good developers, as they show up they cant bring quality (quality definition: To do work in a given time with a given working functionality - they canceled a lot of features and the expac took longer than expacs before). Second, they dont implement a lot suggestions players make, but just respond to people who are opportunists, and just follow their questionable ideas of what the game should evolve to, or to people where they know they will win the discussion. Blizzard is not really interested in feedback, but more in people that are loyal to their decisions.

Opportunists are a common fruit at blizzards tree. Blizzards propaganda machine is strong, because they managed to create a industry which is completely dependend on them. Boot lickers that promote everything they create, even if it's as bad as Warlords of Draenor, which does not even bring in any new game components. Which is being delayed, even if it brings less content for an expansion than ever before. Which is even more expensive considering the fact, it does not offer anything new. Which even removes features. As like flying.

People should be more critical about blizzards decisions. And blizzard should not only listen to brown-nosers when it comes to feedback.

People should stop paying a sub for a game which delivers no new content. And dont pay until they get new content. I wonder how many people stay subbed even if they wait for Warlords of Draenor. Cancel your account today. You give money for nothing.

[Jokerfiend]

How is your company going to stay in business if you cater to every whim? At some point, your owner is going to have to draw a line in the sand. Otherwise, you'll never grow a base and ALWAYS be in flux.

I think the point in all of this is that there are always going to be two sides and no matter what Blizzard does, it's going piss someone off.

Welcome to dealing with people on a daily basis. They are bred with the "customer is ALWAYS right" fallacy. People act WORSE to servers than they do to Developers, hands down. So you want to really compare; dealing with customers in restaurants is far more difficult and draining, then a fucking developer in his High-Loft. Because, it is face to face. People are VILE.

Restaurants deal with the Gordon Ramsey effect, in that, everyone thinks they are fucking Gordon Ramsey. They make unreasonable and spacious demands, not different than dealing with forum trolls. We REALLY DO have customers coming in for free food or wine. They WILL nit-pick any fucking thing, or even FAKE a problem to get free shit.

Perhaps they want to try a dessert, they will order it, not like it, and demand something else. But in your logic, that should be "tough titty", well next time you know you don't like such and such. It just doesn't work that way.

Developers have it far better. They make a product and tell people to fuck off, if they don't like it. Then you have people that support this logic on THAT end, but enforce the opposite logic on other ends. People are hypocrites when it comes to art being consumed.

Catering/Restauranteur IS a different beast than Developing, I'll give you that. We deal with the exact same customer base, with the exact same expectations, and far more personable.

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So, this seems to happen every expansion, right? If that case is true... then we can't really blame Blizzard for the Hype Train now can we? People know what to expect from Blizzard based on their previous experiences. Players are to blame for the Hype Train and how big it gets.

So you never buy into hype, for different products, ever? Or if you did, you don't now. My question is, Why does marketing have to burn at all?

[Novaflare]

It's pretty simple why people were pissed. Blizzcon's presentation was a sales pitch to the userbase. People bought into the promises and features, and when they were revoked people get upset. Simple, really.