Wod duel balance

[Edea]

Took the words out of my mouth. Ret is in a HORRIBLE place right now, ( seems to always be the case over the past 8 YEARS... ) anyway. Boomy off healing is insane right now, If not the strongest off healing in the game currently. I've seen boomies completely roast warriors in duels finishing with 100% hps and wars are among the most OP class right now next to hunters and monks.

Wait till your gear gets better OP then you'll own everything.

The OP is talking about WoD Beta. Rets are very good there atm.

[rda]

That's entirely incorrect. Skill plays a larger role in relation to what? Duelling? Sure. Where, then, does the 1v1 balance reflect upon skill in Arena or anything else?

If 1v1 is balanced, skill plays a larger role in all PVP encounters, not just 1v1.

It's simple. Since your spec is no longer strong against any other spec, more of your wins are thanks to your skill. Same to your spec no longer being weak against any other spec, more of *their* wins are thanks to their skill. Given that the percentage of your wins is going to be a constant 50% no matter how bad the balance, thanks to ranking, the relative share of skill in your rank is going to be higher than if 1v1 were unbalanced.

[thebigman154]

well i think they should balance so everyone can beat everyone cause wpvp vs certains classes is suicide

[Deleted]

If 1v1 is balanced, skill plays a larger role in all PVP encounters, not just 1v1.

It's simple. Since your spec is no longer strong against any other spec, more of your wins are thanks to your skill. Same to your spec no longer being weak against any other spec, more of *their* wins are thanks to their skill. Given that the percentage of your wins is going to be a constant 50% no matter how bad the balance, thanks to ranking, the relative share of skill in your rank is going to be higher than if 1v1 were unbalanced.

No, it's not simple. Nor have you understood what the strength of a class means in PvP. There is strength, and there is type. To balance around 1v1 would almost make the classes and specializations identical. How do you balance around a Shadow Priest's healing in 1v1, and its effectiveness in 3v3, around a Mage's crowd control in 1v1, and its effectiveness in 3v3?

[thebigman154]

No, it's not simple. Nor have you understood what the strength of a class means in PvP. There is strength, and there is type. To balance around 1v1 would almost make the classes and specializations identical. How do you balance around a Shadow Priest's healing in 1v1, and its effectiveness in 3v3, around a Mage's crowd control in 1v1, and its effectiveness in 3v3?

So this means in wpvp hunters and rogues will pwn everyone forever ?

[rda]

No, it's not simple. Nor have you understood what the strength of a class means in PvP. There is strength, and there is type. To balance around 1v1 would almost make the classes and specializations identical. How do you balance around a Shadow Priest's healing in 1v1, and its effectiveness in 3v3, around a Mage's crowd control in 1v1, and its effectiveness in 3v3?

It's simple, because it's math.

Don't exactly understand what you are trying to say with "there is strength and there is type". :-)

No, balancing around 1v1 doesn't mean that everyone is going to be identical, don't know where you get this from.

I am not sure how me answering how to balance shadow priest healing in 1v1 against mage crowd control is going to make a difference.

Anything else?

[Deleted]

So this means in wpvp hunters and rogues will pwn everyone forever ?

Their relative power output, including damage and control, will always be subject to change, as has always been the case with every class. Remember Shadow Priest being on par with Affliction Warlock in Cataclysm, to completely eliminating it in most duels in the beginning of MoP. The utilities that Shadow Priest had were enhanced, and those of the Affliction Warlock were diminished. All classes experience change, and this is inevitably reflected in 1v1. Moreover, what people don't understand is that 1v1 balancing does happen, but only in relation to its outcome in the rest of PvP. Developers don't balance around nothing; they do so by comparing the relative power of all the classes in certain given situations.

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It's simple, because it's math.

Don't exactly understand what you are trying to say with "there is strength and there is type". :-)

No, balancing around 1v1 doesn't mean that everyone is going to be identical, not sure where you get this from.

I am not sure how me answering how to balance shadow priest healing in 1v1 against mage crowd control is going to make a difference.

Yes, it does. You cannot have two different types of classes with very different abilities perform equally well. Classes being identical means their types would be the same. The Disc Priest would cease to exist, because its type is absorbing and shielding more than regenerating health constantly. Balancing this around a Druid's healing over time, a Paladin's large heals, etc., is highly unlikely. If this is math, it is anything but of the simple kind.

How do you balance a jet fighter and tank in a 1v1 situation and make them equally viable for other war tasks? If it's simple math, you should be able to explain it right now.

[Alanar]

You have fear, rets don't have any counter to fear besides trinket ofcourse and if he blows his bubble to counter a fear, he's an idiot.

Rogues...well rogues always countered clothies, so no change here.

Fear now a talent which break in 2 hits, tendrils now 10% of total health down from 20% and breaks of your OWN damage now.

Don't worry about fear man..you are late it's not even a problem.

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Rets? broken? You do know that ret is the weakest melee spec in game atm, and druids Hard-counter them easily because of their Godlike mobility

Not in beta.


ps: Hardball- Personally, I always prefer playing classes that are good at 1v1. Imo, that's the pvp that truly matters, when you can best someone in a fair fight, not when you're part of zerg doing zergy things to another zerg, or when you have 2 people cc-ing for you and healing you so you do damage unhindered and unopposed.

This guy gets it. Zerg or massive group play is nowhere near intresting or balanced play. try playing eso and see if you still like zerg;p
1v1 situations should be considered in balancing, duel community is large bra very large.. even look at 2s.. which everyone still plays , but still qq the fuck around cus it's not balanced.

[rda]

You cannot have two different types of classes with very different abilities perform equally well. Classes being identical means their types would be the same. The Disc Priest would cease to exist, because its type is absorbing and shielding more than regenerating health constantly. Balancing this around a Druid's healing over time, a Paladin's large heals, etc., is highly unlikely. If this is math, it is anything but of the simple kind.

How do you balance a jet fighter and tank in a 1v1 situation and make them equally viable for other war tasks? If it's simple math, you should be able to explain it right now.

Yes, you can have two different types of classes with very different abilities perform equally well against each other. One class has big heals that he has to cast, another one has HoTs, third one has absorbs, fourth one has life steal, others have spell steal / damage reduction / damage reversal / you name it.

You are just postulating things and saying they are this way. That's nonsense. WoW isn't the only game, you know, and this isn't the new problem.

[Deleted]

After further dueling, I have concluded that beating rogue as boomkin is possible but extremely hard if rogue plays well. Retri paladins are still hard but they are easier. Rest of the classes are not very hard except warlock which is undeniably broken, their self heal and damage is out of boomkin league, all my time dueling against warlock goes with healing myself and dispelling curses and when I try to make any damage I just get interrupted and feared. Sometimes I get warlock down to 50% hp but its not even close to winning and warlock just regenerates.

[Deleted]

Yes, you can have two different types of classes with very different abilities perform equally well against each other. One class has big heals that he has to cast, another one has HoTs, third one has absorbs, fourth one has life steal, others have spell steal / damage reduction / damage reversal / you name it.

That's how the classes are balanced CURRENTLY. That they are unable to perform equally well is a result of the task being overly complicated. If you only were to balance in 1v1, the results would be the same: Mage can control some classes too well, not others, etc. It's a circle.

[rda]

That's how the classes are balanced CURRENTLY. That they are unable to perform equally well is a result of the task being overly complicated. If you only were to balance in 1v1, the results would be the same: Mage can control some classes too well, not others, etc. It's a circle.

No, that's not how 1v1 is balanced currently. Currently, 1v1 isn't balanced at all (same for 2v2, same for a lot of other NvNs), they have their hands full with just 3v3.

Is achieving good 1v1 balance hard? Yes.

Is achieving good 1v1 balance with as many abilities and things that WoW has even harder? Yes.

Is this impossible? Absolutely not, it is possible. And they can make it simpler to achieve by reducing the specs somewhat.

[Deleted]

Is achieving good 1v1 balance hard? Yes.

Is achieving good 1v1 balance with as many abilities and things that WoW has hard? Yes.

Is this impossible? Absolutely not, it is possible. And they can make it simpler to achieve by reducing the specs somewhat.

It's not impossible to for a man to kill a lion with bare hands either. Just very, what was the word - unlikely.

[rda]

It's not impossible to for a man to kill a lion with bare hands either. Just very, what was the word - unlikely.

You aren't listening...

[Deleted]

You aren't listening...

I certainly am paying attention. The problem is that you are only making general claims, with very little substantiated content. To say something is not impossible is one thing. Make it meaningful is another.

[rda]

I certainly am paying attention. The problem is that you are only making general claims, with very little substantiated content. To say something is not impossible is one thing. Make it meaningful is another.

Look, I am not sure why you are still arguing. You asked why 1v1 balance matters - I answered. You objected to having 1v1 balance on the grounds that it would make all classes seem the same - I said that this isn't the case at all, and provided example list of different mechanics that can still be balanced with each other. I agree balancing 3v3 in WoW is more important than balancing 1v1, because they seem to have a hard time balancing even that (and balancing 1v1 is harder, long story here). Yet you still go on and on and on disagreeing with I am not sure what. Put it to rest.

[Deleted]

Look, I am not sure why you are still arguing. You asked why 1v1 balance matters - I answered. You objected to having 1v1 balance on the grounds that it would make all classes seem the same - I said that this isn't the case at all, and provided example list of different mechanics that can still be balanced with each other. I agree balancing 3v3 in WoW is more important than balancing 1v1, because they seem to have a hard time balancing even that (and balancing 1v1 is harder, long story here). Yet you still go on and on and on disagreeing with I am not sure what. Put it to rest.

The example you provided proved my point. Abilities currently ARE balanced around each other. Whether that is meant to be in relation to 1v1 or 3v3 doesn't change anything. You said balancing around 1v1 would make classes more balanced in 3v3. If that is the case, then why say that balancing in 3v3 is more important than in 1v1? You're not making sense.

[rda]

The example you provided proved my point. Abilities currently ARE balanced around each other. Whether that is meant to be in relation to 1v1 or 3v3 doesn't change anything. You said balancing around 1v1 would make classes more balanced in 3v3. If that is the case, then why say that balancing in 3v3 is more important than in 1v1? You're not making sense.

The example I provided apparently was enough to stop you going about 1v1 balance leading to all classes being the same, because it was clear from the example, that this is not the case. That's all. They aren't balancing 1v1 now. At all. Your "abilities currently ARE balanced bla bla" doesn't exist, abilities are currently NOT balanced.

Yes, balancing around 1v1 will make setups (not classes) more balanced in 3v3. That's a truism.

I am saying that balancing 3v3 is more important than balancing 1v1, because balancing 1v1 is more difficult, and they have problems balancing even 3v3.

There's nothing above that I haven't said already in the thread. I suggest you read my posts before hitting the reply button. Thank you.

[Deleted]

The example I provided apparently was enough to stop you going about 1v1 balance leading to all classes being the same, because it was clear from the example, that this is not the case. That's all. They aren't balancing 1v1 now. At all. Your "abilities currently ARE balanced bla bla" doesn't exist, abilities are currently NOT balanced.

I meant to use the progressive form of the verb: the abilities are being balanced. All major patches attempt to balance the abilities. That imbalance tends to happen is a side-effect which will happen regardless of what classes are balanced around. You said above that one class has HoTs, another absorbs, etc. This is exactly what the current situation is. Answer me honestly - are you kidding me? For 10 years classes have been balanced progressively, and this was done by comparing their different abilities and making them equal in effect. That's why classes often ARE on pair with each other both in 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3. Additionally, remember that classes that can often do well 1v1 can easily be nearly useless in other areas of PvP. Fire Mage has often been excellent in 1v1, but relatively poor in 3s. Destruction Warlock too. I can go on.

Yes, balancing around 1v1 will make setups (not classes) more balanced in 3v3. That's a truism.

Changing the subject. Try again.

There's nothing above that I haven't said already in the thread. I suggest you read my posts before hitting the reply button. Thank you.

I suggest you stop changing the subject, define the terms you are arguing about, and come back with an argument.

[rda]

LOL, whatever. You are too busy trying to "win" something on the Internet, I guess, too busy to even read what others are writing yet alone think about it.

It feels stupid having to repeat things for the third time, so I won't do it.

GL HF