CDR (AoC) should be passive for Combat Rogues

[Deleted]

I'm not in beta currently, so I don't know how Blizz will handle this. But imo Assurance of Consequence needs to be baseline for Combat. Without it, Combat feels very awkward and slow. I haven't even looked into MoP untill 5.4 SoO patch, where then I bought the expansion and am now in a heroic raiding guild. Combat feels much more engaging with an active playstyle.

[nando007]

am in beta right now and i have 582 4/4 and has 2% CD reduction so i guess we need replace

[Artorius]

50 energy SS will also be clunky at the beginning...

[Jiigeri]

I guess it's time to hoard a replacement trinket just in case. Unfortunately I can't copy my character to beta (EU ftl). Hopefully soon..

[Deleted]

am in beta right now and i have 582 4/4 and has 2% CD reduction so i guess we need replace

Combat rotation just isn't engaging without a baseline AoC baked into Combat passives. Am I really the only Combat Rogue out there that shares this concern?

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50 energy SS will also be clunky at the beginning...

Yes I believe it will, so it won't exactly be easy to trigger enough restless blades procs to keep combat rotation somewhat engaging. I hope the rogue community provides lots of feedback for those who have beta. Last thing we need is to be fully ignored about legitimate concerns over fun factor of a spec.

[overdose]

Combat rotation just isn't engaging without a baseline AoC baked into Combat passives.

Combat already has a CD reduction passive called Restless Blades.

Combat will be slow regardless of AoC, simply because of scaling and how energy regen is dependent on haste levels. Also, normally SS is 40 energy, but was upped to 50 energy to alleviate energy capping and spam - both of which aren't a problem in the beginning of expansions. This makes the 50 energy SS make feel combat slower than it usually does at the beginning of an xpac.

The t17 combat 4pc will help a lot for CD uptime, and I think a 25% proc is high enough to consistently see it multiple times throughout an encounter unlike the current 4% sub t16 proc.

[Kael]

Made the title far less misleading. I think the combat CD's are long in the first tier atm, but with AoC and full haste I think it's a little over the top in post-upgrade SoO. I could see a middle ground - less haste impact, lower base CD - being a better compromise. Of course, I think that about almost everything when haste has a huge impact on perceived play style and isn't an optional upgrade.

[Warstar]

It could be a fun way to bake in haste to CDR similar to the ways that paladin have it. That way through out the expansion rogues can go from lower damage to higher at a more controlled rate. While it's true that all classes benefit from CDR out there combat specifically does since so much of it's damage is based around it's cool downs. So much of MoP was used applying band aid fix after band aid fix so it makes me wonder what's going to happen in WoD with low haste rating, no CDR, an increased SS cost and basically all the shit from MoP with none of the fixes. Go go assassination til they fix combat again?

[Squirl]

Go go assassination til they fix combat again?

I'm pulling for subt.

[Mormolyce]

I dunno, AoC kind of reduces the impact of Restless Blades which to me is a core component of Combat.

[-Raer-]

I'm pulling for subt.

I'm pulling for warrior

[Squirl]

I'm pulling for warrior

http://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/278-Warrior

[Vigilate]

I'm pulling for subt.

It just occured to me, that in WoD, Assassination and Subtlety will be complete opposite. Assassination's single target is easier than tying your shoes, but it's AoE capabilities will be some depth to them for min/maxing. Meanwhile, Subtlety's single target rotation will have some good depth to it still, but it's single target will more or less consist of FoK + CT spam. I have some hope for Subtlety. Even during T13, it was really only the dominant spec on a few fights. Lack of AoE always just kind of held it back.

Personally, I hope Combat's issues can be fixed during Beta. I'd love both Combat and Subtlety to be strong specs during WoD outside of the last tier.

I dunno, AoC kind of reduces the impact of Restless Blades which to me is a core component of Combat.

Actually, AoC INCREASES the impact of Restless Blades since AoC + Restless Blades work quite well together. DPS warriors have been asking for their CDR trinket to be baked into to CDs on beta because they loved the game play it brought. If Blizzard ended up going that route, though, I feel like such a change would be more to the benefit of Combat Rogues than Fury Warriors.

I'm pulling for warrior

Good luck with that. They're only a little bit broken at the moment. http://heroicstrike.org/

[OneSent]

I knew this was going to be a problem. Once again, Blizzard gives rogues something in the form of a weapon, or this time around a trinket that completely changes our gameplay, and players become so used to it that they ask for it to be made baseline.

Just like in Cataclysm, when we recieved our legendary daggers and our energy regen was through the roof, when we finally replaced them in MoP, players whined and complained that our energy regen was too slow.

Don't get me wrong, AoC is an amazing trinket. But making it a passive for combat would completely trivialize Restless Blades. After months of having a 4/4 upgraded HWF AoC, the talent kind of loses it's purpose as I'm popping my CDs every 20 secs or so. Boring.

[Deleted]

In one aspect it can be a good thing to have longer cooldowns.

Right now you really just want to pop your cooldowns as often as possible, the AoC trinket makes it pretty pointless conserving a cooldown for a trinket buff proc. So with a longer cd it would require you to go through combat logs to anticipate kill times and make a judgement wheter to just pop your ar+sb+ks on cooldown or to conserve for a trinket proc. Now I don't really enjoy this design, I want the game to reward being skilled at the game by having intuitive design, this design more rewards knowledge really. Now I don't even know if this would be a thing in wod seeing as they are vastly nerfing buff stacking.

Alright so let's move on to the positive aspects.

I'd say that fun is the biggest thing here, I'd go as far to say that I consider all rogue specs to be very boring outside of cooldowns (disregarding cleave and aoe) and assurance of consequence has really increased the enjoyment of playing both sub and combat for me , although the removal of shadow blades will reduce this abit. Wheter or not this view is shared by the general population I can't say, but it seems to be leaning towards the other way if you took this thread as an example.

Shorter cooldowns being argueably more rewarding is also something to consider. Let's say we have a fight where killing spree useage is very dangerous, I'd say we can take paragons. There's several things here that can kill you and the shorter the cooldown of killing spree will lead to a higher the risk of death. Delaying your cooldown would matter more in % of our output with the shorter cooldown compared to the longer cooldown. So you would be more rewarded by experience / dbm/bigwigs timer / awareness of your surroundings with the shorter cooldown compared to the longer one.

There's also the rotational change, in my opinion it's "harder" to properly perform your priority system when you're using a cooldown like ar for combat or shadow dance / vanish as sub. With combat the change is rather simple, you just have to press your buttons more often, but this leads to requiring quicker reaction to your combo point number and the bad rogue will probably fail more during ar with management compared to the good rogue just by reducing the reaction time. When it comes to shadow dance and vanish as sub it adds more depth to the rotation, imagine playing sub without any cooldowns, it would feel pretty plain really. The depth of sub comes when you have to properly plan your ambush useages during vanish to get the most out of them, not applying hemo during shadow dance to get the most out of your ambushes there, cp pooling for times when you'll have fw up. Well you all know how it works, point is that playing properly during a cooldown is more rewarding than without one, and more cooldowns used during the fight will increase the reward even further.

I don't get the arguement that AoC trivializes restless blades since it actually increases the impact . The more ar's you use the more you will gain from restless blades.

An arguement could be made that if aoc would be made baseline the cooldowns would instead just get nerfed and it's a valid concern because my points here would be made mute. My hope is that they would reduce the effectiveness of your abilities outside of cooldowns instead.

Anyway in short I very much agree with the op, playing with the haste we have atm and full upgrade hcwf AoC I think it feels just right (cd reduction that is, energy capping isn't as fun). I wouldn't mind an AoC trinket for every tier either, . But I don't see this happening unless it's the view of the general population of rogues.

Additional note, I don't really think combat will feel that slow will lower haste levels if the cd of adrenaline rush is reduced. You're spamming as much on beta as on live to keep up with the increased energy regen from ar. Increasing the use of ar will make it feel faster. But I think energy regen is a different issue alltogether, and not really related to this.

[mauserr]

With combat the change is rather simple, you just have to press your buttons more often, but this leads to requiring quicker reaction to your combo point number and the bad rogue will probably fail more during ar with management compared to the good rogue just by reducing the reaction time. When it comes to shadow dance and vanish as sub it adds more depth to the rotation, imagine playing sub without any cooldowns, it would feel pretty plain really. The depth of sub comes when you have to properly plan your ambush useages during vanish to get the most out of them, not applying hemo during shadow dance to get the most out of your ambushes there, cp pooling for times when you'll have fw up. Well you all know how it works, point is that playing properly during a cooldown is more rewarding than without one, and more cooldowns used during the fight will increase the reward even further.

That's a good thing. Why put bad rogues closer to the good rogues? Good play should be rewarded, bad play should be punished.

[Deleted]

I said it was a positive aspect of cooldown reduction . So I'm not sure if you're actually disagreeing with me or just missunderstood me. I didn't imply that good play shouldn't be rewarding and bad play be punished, I think I said quite the opposite actually.

[Deleted]

I'm not in beta currently, so I don't know how Blizz will handle this. But imo Assurance of Consequence needs to be baseline for Combat. Without it, Combat feels very awkward and slow. I haven't even looked into MoP untill 5.4 SoO patch, where then I bought the expansion and am now in a heroic raiding guild. Combat feels much more engaging with an active playstyle.

Even if the overall damage is the same on average, having the versatility of having short CD timers on DPS boosts make the class better at most mechanics in a boss fight, since most require damage bursts every now and then instead of consistent average damage over its course - Killing adds, pushing a few % on a short time window. This is why readiness was scrapped as a stat. It is very hard to balance something that cannot be just translated into numbers.

[Deleted]

Well no The reason they scrapped readiness (atleast according to their official statement) was that it's hard to balance against other secondary stats but they said that it infact works very well in small quantities like on the assurance of consequence trinket. They mentioned that yes there are balance issues but they are also solveable. Readiness as a secondary stat would be another issue entirely.

[mauserr]

I said it was a positive aspect of cooldown reduction . So I'm not sure if you're actually disagreeing with me or just missunderstood me. I didn't imply that good play shouldn't be rewarding and bad play be punished, I think I said quite the opposite actually.

I was actually agreeing with you in my own twisted way :P I'd very much like a fast paced Combat gameplay like we currently have with a HWF 4/4 AOC.