vel koz sup

[Simulacrum]

@Simulacrum,
I bet that Veigars Q is much harder to dodge than Vel'Koz one, well, because it's targetable :P and since they share scaling, i don't see a problem with damage. The only bane of Veigar support is strong hitting physical damage adc (Draven, Cait, Twitch), but as soon as you get your stun, you can easily use it to disengage + dish out some damage on enemy with WQ. And as soon as you get level 6, enemy dies. I've only played Veigar support couple of times (3 times with AP support item and 2 times with health support item to get AP via Q), and i lost two games, one against Draven because it was too hard to handle and second time against very skilled team who for unknown reason was matched against fully random group. And, i guess Veigar support is the only support who still uses armour runes (not armour per level ones).

Also you overestimate AP gain from his minion farm on Q, getting one creep per wave + the big one with relic shield is enough to get your AP, and support without items is no more since recent changes, all you need is spend ~1,5k gold on warding item and that's it, you can get your AP items.

The point isn't that vel'koz Q is easy to land, it's that it's easy to land from 1050+ range, allowing his enemies no opportunity to retaliate to it. They're a lot like karma Qs in that way, except from even father away but not aoe (though it can hit 3 targets).

Veigar can only do the same with his stun up, which has a relatively long cooldown and makes him so weak while it's down that he has no pressure until it's back up, and he still has to wobble up to 650 range to land his Q against them while they're stunned.

Again, they serve different purposes. The only thing they have in common is that they both have strong disengage, but unlike veigar vel'koz can disengage with all his abilities, not just his long cooldown stun. Veigar is a one-trick-pony. He has his stun+everything combo, and that's it. Even that isn't very scary unless veigar is farmed, and it's not exactly suited to harrassment. Vel'koz is more about the constant, sustained damage+slowing from 1000+ range, combined with strong all-aoe medium range abilities. Veigar left alone in a teamfight might stun several people and even kill a squishy by himself, but vel'koz left alone in a teamfight might kill half your team except the tanks, and even the tanks should be low before the fight started thanks to vel'koz constant Q spam on their face combined with liandry's.

I'm not saying ve'koz is this god-support. Even if I did want an AP support I'd never pick him over morgana (except for fun; played so much morgana lately, she's getting boring), and probably not over karma, though I might consider picking him over zyra. I would pick everybody else listed so far over veigar, though, except - again - for fun.

[StNimrod]

Damn, I thought I was the only one who enjoyed him as support. Really fun for sure, a bit weaker versus hard engage teams and some assassins, other than that just Q W E R and people are melting. R is just hilarious!

[Deleted]

You don't pick a support for the scaling... you pick it for the lack of scaling, or more precisely the ability to perform very well without a lot of items.

When I said scaling I didn't say Veigar scaled better with just items. Veigar can do better than Vel with the same items.

Veigar without a lot of cs and items is just a stunbot; pretty worthless.

Are you really telling my his E max level that stuns for 3 seconds with a grand wide range is pretty worthless? What...

Vel'koz without a lot of items still does incredible sustained poke damage and huge amounts of aoe damage and disruption in teamfights with his high base damage and passive.

Sustained damage is crap in the current meta. Cassiopeia and Swain, primary examples here, are great champions but they are kind of subpar in the current meta since the current meta favors instant/burst damage, which Veigar has and can do without items.

His sustained Q spam, combined with E if they get too close, and possibly a rylai's for his W, along with the threat of walking into his ult on your entire team, make it very hard for the enemy team to engage on his team, and his ability to put up this anti-engage pressure is not limited to some huge cooldown ability (like veigar or zyra).

I've already said this about his Q before. It means jackshit for a lot of champions whether they are slowed or not.

If Vel ulties he's just exposing himself. By doing this, you're most certainly going to die, and as a support, how the fuck are you going to protect anyone in a fight if you die asap? Your purpose isn't to do damage. Sure, it helps a ton, but that isn't your main purpose as a support unless you get fed or can afford to buy damage items while maintaining your role as a support, which doesn't happen often.

It doesn't matter if Veigar has a long cd on his E or not. That shit stuns people for 3 seconds at max rank and 3 seconds can pretty much decide whether the carries die or not or whether you'll win a fight. Vel's stun and damage does not have this huge impact like Veigar's stun has. Not going to bother with Zyra since I already said she has the same problems as Vel has, or similar problems.

Your complaint about Q in lane is just such a complete non sequitur that I'm now pretty sure you don't actually care at all about vel'koz performance but just want to complain for the sake of complaining.

It doesn't matter if I am complaining for the sake of complaining or not. We're having a discussion here and I'm trying to tell you that Vel'Koz doesn't perform as well as Veigar does with the experience I have in playing them both as support.

So instead of saying stuff like that, focus on my argument, like I'm focusing on yours.

The point isn't that vel'koz Q is easy to land, it's that it's easy to land from 1050+ range, allowing his enemies no opportunity to retaliate to it. They're a lot like karma Qs in that way, except from even father away but not aoe (though it can hit 3 targets).

His Q is the most easiest shit to avoid at its max range, since you can predict where it will end and split. The closer you are to him, the worse it is to avoid his Q.

Karma Q is way more terrifying than Vel's Q btw, especially when she uses it with ulti.

Veigar can only do the same with his stun up, which has a relatively long cooldown and makes him so weak while it's down that he has no pressure until it's back up, and he still has to wobble up to 650 range to land his Q against them while they're stunned.

His stun is only has more than 4 seconds of cd. These extra 4 seconds to Vel's E (which is 12 seconds) is pretty irrelevant due to the time it can stun enemies and it's a stun wall, no one is going to try and go throw it, which would be stupid if they did.

Veigar's Q is way more reliant than Vel's Q once a fight breaks out. What makes you think his Q is going to hit carries? A Q hitting a tank doesn't do much other than just slow him (not that it's a bad thing, but a tank is, you know, a tank) while veigar can target his Q to whomever he wants, not only that, his Q has a shorter cd and does way more damage than Vel's Q. All of this without him having put his wall up, with his wall up, he can pretty much go to your ap carry and burst that bitch down with everything has. Try doing that with Vel'koz while managing to get out safely or at least alive to use another stun/wall.

Again, they serve different purposes. The only thing they have in common is that they both have strong disengage, but unlike veigar vel'koz can disengage with all his abilities, not just his long cooldown stun. Veigar is a one-trick-pony. He has his stun+everything combo, and that's it. Even that isn't very scary unless veigar is farmed, and it's not exactly suited to harrassment. Vel'koz is more about the constant, sustained damage+slowing from 1000+ range, combined with strong all-aoe medium range abilities. Veigar left alone in a teamfight might stun several people and even kill a squishy by himself, but vel'koz left alone in a teamfight might kill half your team except the tanks, and even the tanks should be low before the fight started thanks to vel'koz constant Q spam on their face combined with liandry's.

I'm not saying ve'koz is this god-support. Even if I did want an AP support I'd never pick him over morgana (except for fun; played so much morgana lately, she's getting boring), and probably not over karma, though I might consider picking him over zyra. I would pick everybody else listed so far over veigar, though, except - again - for fun.

One Veigar wall is more than enough for a complete escape/disangage in most areas of SR. Vel poking with his abilities means nothing compared to this wall. You're saying Vel is so good at disengaging that it's impossible to dodge his spells. Lol. His spells are way easier to avoid than Veigar's wall, obviously. And before you say that avoiding Veigar's wall is easy, yes, it is, but its purpose is to put pressure and give time for your team to escape, it honestly doesn't matter much if you stun or not, though it'd be good too of course.

Are you really telling me a support Vel'Koz is going to destroy half the enemy team? What kind of players are you going against... One thing is if he's fed or he's played as a mid champ, but as a support? I think you have unrealistic views on Vel'Koz.

And before I get the same crap as earlier. Vel'Koz is a good support champion but it's a high risk ~ reward champion due to the difficulty he has and some problems he has.

Both are great and do great, both have their weaknesses but Vel isn't as good as a Veigar with the current experience I have through games I've played with them/seen someone else play. How much disparity they have between each other now, I have no idea of.

[Simulacrum]

You're comparing his poke to the attacks of swain and cass now? Do you even try to understand what I'm saying?And it doesn't matter if you complain just to complain, and pointing out that your argument is a non sequitur isn't addressing it? And... eh. Whatever makes you happy, man. I think I'll leave arguing with you to those more interested than me.

[Duilliath]

Let me put it in simple terms:

If Veigar walks up to Event Horizon, he gets within range and gets pelted.
If Vel'koz decides to Q, he is miles away from everyone.

[Charge me Doctor]

Let me put it in simple terms:

If Veigar walks up to Event Horizon, he gets within range and gets pelted.
If Vel'koz decides to Q, he is miles away from everyone.

They have same effective range

- - - Updated - - -

The point isn't that vel'koz Q is easy to land, it's that it's easy to land from 1050+ range, allowing his enemies no opportunity to retaliate to it. They're a lot like karma Qs in that way, except from even father away but not aoe (though it can hit 3 targets).

Veigar can only do the same with his stun up, which has a relatively long cooldown and makes him so weak while it's down that he has no pressure until it's back up, and he still has to wobble up to 650 range to land his Q against them while they're stunned.

Again, they serve different purposes. The only thing they have in common is that they both have strong disengage, but unlike veigar vel'koz can disengage with all his abilities, not just his long cooldown stun. Veigar is a one-trick-pony. He has his stun+everything combo, and that's it. Even that isn't very scary unless veigar is farmed, and it's not exactly suited to harrassment. Vel'koz is more about the constant, sustained damage+slowing from 1000+ range, combined with strong all-aoe medium range abilities. Veigar left alone in a teamfight might stun several people and even kill a squishy by himself, but vel'koz left alone in a teamfight might kill half your team except the tanks, and even the tanks should be low before the fight started thanks to vel'koz constant Q spam on their face combined with liandry's.

I'm not saying ve'koz is this god-support. Even if I did want an AP support I'd never pick him over morgana (except for fun; played so much morgana lately, she's getting boring), and probably not over karma, though I might consider picking him over zyra. I would pick everybody else listed so far over veigar, though, except - again - for fun.

his Q is also is easy to dodge, or to juke it, or to block it with creeps. And Vel'koz doesn't have infinite mana to spam his Qs. They are not like Karma Qs, Karma Qs are much more scarier because of Mantra.

Veigar doesn't need to poke people down from 1k range, he punishes enemy support/carry for being near and forces then to play passive, because as soon as Leona jumps on you, she gets hit by W+Q dropping her to 2/3s HP. And one thing i noticed, people don't know what radius is, Veigars event horizon has 650 range + 376 radius + i don't know how "fat" itself wall is, but landing it from ~1100 range on enemy carry is easy and the only drawback of this: how your carry will follow up this stun from such a great range without wasting precious seconds of CC?
You don't wobble up to 650 range, you stand near creep wave and wait for enemy to wobble up to creeps to get last hit, that's your purpose here

Yes, they do serve different purposes, Vel'Koz AoE damage, in my opinion, wasted on bot late, because in 2v2 fights half of your kit being able to hit 5 people is wasted, the only way to utilize it is when you are ganked by enemy or in mid/late game teamfights, while Veigar serves same purpose as Annie, he stops enemy from engaging on you with stun, he can initiate ganks, he can punish enemy for getting last hits and he has infinite mana. I do understand that they serve different purposes, but i don't see how having a support whose only goal is to poke enemy and disengage (without flash Vel'Koz hardly can kill anyone on bot).

Yes, Veigar is one-trick-pony, he deals buttloads of damage on one target, punishes enemy AP characters for building the way they intended to build and have am AoE longer-than-Galio-ult stun, all Vel'Koz skills are easily avoidable by moving, all of them have travel time (well, except ult), and you don't want to have a support whose whole purpose is poking enemy from 1k range, his whole advantage is going to be ruined by single Braum or Leona jumping on your carry, because all you can provide is 0,5 stun to peel one enemy (because, obviously, you fight with melee support on the face of your carry and enemy carry who stands behind).

You probably have void-tinted glasses on, take them off and face reality that supports who unable to peel enemy off and force enemy to disengage are not in good spot right now. It will be very boring when you start meeting people who actually know how Vel'Koz works and how easy it is to lane against him on bottom

[Duilliath]

Tbh, I think both are stupidly easy to face.

They're both highly immobile jungle magnets.

[Charge me Doctor]

Tbh, I think both are stupidly easy to face.

They're both highly immobile jungle magnets.

At least jungler will be busy at bottom lane leaving mid and top alone, amirite?

[Duilliath]

Which means he snowballed 3 people out of 5 on the map. Bottomlane has the best pay off if you can guarantee a gank. It also guarantees dragon control. The reason mid and top are preferred is simply because 2 v 1 > 3 v 2.

[Simulacrum]

Tbh, I think both are stupidly easy to face.

They're both highly immobile jungle magnets.

On the upside, junglers in soloq are usually not good enough to exploit this weakness.

[bilkenter]

Let me put it in simple terms:

If Veigar walks up to Event Horizon, he gets within range and gets pelted.
If Vel'koz decides to Q, he is miles away from everyone.

agreed also velkoz q s easy to land you can change the course of the trajectory simple throw it somewhere else and spam q again to change its way. It is way more easy to harass with velkoz and i am still raising with him gonna be silver soon. xD crushing the enemy

[Deleted]

To be honest, the main problem I have with this argument is how easy it is to avoid Veigar's cage or play around it. In lane he literally telegraphs it by running at you since it's not exactly a huge range, and all you have to do is walk towards him. Vel'kozz will land his whole combo on you if you eat a Q to the face and he happened to be in range. He is a lot safer than Veigar and has much better disengage, and let me stress this out, on THREE of his spells, on a really short CD. You can bait a Veigar cage and then kill him, like you would a Blitz, but three times as easily. You can't bait shit from the Kozz because his spells are all pretty low CD. As for late game, well, his low range will place him pretty much in the middle of his team, and he -will- die in the first aoe that hits him :P Vel'kozz can both peel and play cleanup.

I have seen a few games, not that many, with both of them played as supports. Veigar was scary if he got fed, true, but Vel'kozz was pretty scary in general, especially in lane.

I think the main points the Veigar supporters are ignoring is that he is completely useless for several seconds after he's used his combo, whereas the Kozz just keeps going, that he's a lot riskier than the Kozz due to his medium-at-best range, and that his signature support ability is fairly easy to avoid.

[bilkenter]

To be honest, the main problem I have with this argument is how easy it is to avoid Veigar's cage or play around it. In lane he literally telegraphs it by running at you since it's not exactly a huge range, and all you have to do is walk towards him. Vel'kozz will land his whole combo on you if you eat a Q to the face and he happened to be in range. He is a lot safer than Veigar and has much better disengage, and let me stress this out, on THREE of his spells, on a really short CD. You can bait a Veigar cage and then kill him, like you would a Blitz, but three times as easily. You can't bait shit from the Kozz because his spells are all pretty low CD. As for late game, well, his low range will place him pretty much in the middle of his team, and he -will- die in the first aoe that hits him :P Vel'kozz can both peel and play cleanup.

I have seen a few games, not that many, with both of them played as supports. Veigar was scary if he got fed, true, but Vel'kozz was pretty scary in general, especially in lane.

I think the main points the Veigar supporters are ignoring is that he is completely useless for several seconds after he's used his combo, whereas the Kozz just keeps going, that he's a lot riskier than the Kozz due to his medium-at-best range, and that his signature support ability is fairly easy to avoid.

This pretty much sums it up

[S2omegaS2]

and they are nerfing vel'koz's base damage

[sam86]

Neither are great support
They both are good, maybe "ok" even, but great ? No way
Proper support can ruin both of them assume same skill, that include squishy supports like Janna and tank supports like Leona, however Braum cross my mind as crappy support vs ranged AP bot, but Braum isn't good vs Karma either and Karma can support better than both Velkz and Veigar combined (Hello R+E)
They work better as surprise support, and of course depending on ADC too, but to rank Velkoz (or Veigar) above Karma or Nami, is wrong

[bilkenter]

and they are nerfing vel'koz's base damage

That was to be expected too overpowered in my opinion.

[Ergar]

Yeah Vel'Koz's base damage was way too high, so the nerfs were pretty expected.